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ShadowDragon8685
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
It's also perfectly reasonable that Shadowrunners carry around some foil thick enough to block RFID tags, which is a really not very large amount of the stuff.

~J

Or have backpacks of radio-jamming material.

Or else carry portable jammers with them, which is a Very Good Idea.
Crakkerjakk
My .02 dollars.

1) Looting- A certain amount of looting is okay. Risk vs. reward. Like Shadow just said above, if you don't want them to have it, don't wave it in front of their face. If they're compulsive looters, have something nastier than them show up after a reasonable amount of time, and severely decrease the amount of cash they get for items that are more than likely damaged, connected to multiple crimes(murder + breaking and entering + grand theft larceny), and screw them hard if they don't take precautions to prevent tracking, especially for anything electronic.

2)Destruction- A certain amount of violence is part of the job. Notoriety is a good way to deal with players that act like they're vikings on a weekend holiday. One thing I always thought made sense was from a documentary on police CSIs on the discovery channel. Basically, two rules. Rule One: If a crime is a high enough priority, it can almost always be solved. Rule Two: Murder is always top priority. A lot more resources get devoted to tracking down mass murderers than expert thieves. And no matter how bad ass they are, enough explosives WILL kill them. So don't piss off anyone enough to make them want to detonate several hundred kilos of military grade explosives in the house you're in.

3)Mr. J- Chances are runners can take Mr. J in a one on one fight. But Mr. J controls the cash flow. I think docking the players a few months of lifestyle is a great idea, as is notoriety, or maybe downgrading a few contact's loyalty. And if they actually put hands on Mr. J, especially if he's a "connected" Mr. J(organized crime), they may have just signed their own death warrants. I tend to go out of my way to give my players chances to survive. However, if they're being willfully stupid, let them deal with the consequences of someone who has enough money to hire them. Who knows, they might even survive to have a newfound respect for other people.

Anywho, thats my take on the whole situation. If your players are just looking for an opportunity to be complete and utter dicks to everyone they meet, well, I don't really know why you'd want to GM a game like that, since you're gonna be the person they're being dicks to. Perhaps a game of Paranoia would be more in the cards.

As a low grade example of the stupid player:

Brand new game, friend of mine had just rolled a brand new troll street sammy, got a call to meet a Mr. J. downtown. My friend Dave neglected to purchase transportation for his troll, so he tells me he's taking the bus to the meet. I ask him what gear he has on him. He tells me everything on his character sheet. Which included an AK-98 with an underbarrel grenade launcher. I ask him if he's sure, in the "thats a bad idea" voice. He says yup. So, he tries to get on the bus, and as soon as the bus driver sees Dave, he floors it and vamooses. Not unsubtle hint, I thought. Well, Dave decides to go into the local stuffer shack for some snacks. Everyone in there freaks out, but Dave calmly goes through the motions of buying a few bags of chips and some soda, then emptying the register. He steps outside, and lo and behold there's about three Lone Star patrol cars in a circle, with all the cops ready to shoot his ass. He finally got smart and didn't resist arrest, and went to jail for a few months, picking up a criminal SIN.

Thats all I got. Intentional stupidity should be punished, and your players will learn.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Crakkerjakk @ Jan 31 2007, 12:24 AM)
And if they actually put hands on Mr. J, especially if he's a "connected" Mr. J(organized crime), they may have just signed their own death warrants.

I just want to emphasize this. I'm somewhat reversing my position on the typical Johnson's reaction to verbal abuse (there's obviously going to be a limit, but I imagine it would be one expected style of etiquette to actively threaten the other party—as mentioned before, this is backed up with canon conversations.), but touching the Johnson—not violently, mind you, but touching at all, should be a death warrant. Of course, the same should be true of the Johnson touching the runners—a team that blows away a Johnson that touched a runner at a meet probably wouldn't lose a smidge of rep, and would only lose those Johnsons who wouldn't be worth working with anyway. There are just too many nasty things you can do to someone in Shadowrun by touching them to permit this.

QUOTE
If a crime is a high enough priority, it can almost always be solved.

I seriously doubt this. Maybe when not dealing with a professional underclass of criminals, maybe. If anyone has hard statistics, though, I'd love to see them.

QUOTE
He finally got smart and didn't resist arrest

Especially for a streetsam, that is about as far from "smart" as you can possibly get.

~J
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Crakkerjakk)
Basically, two rules. Rule One: If a crime is a high enough priority, it can almost always be solved. Rule Two: Murder is always top priority.

I'll be sure to tell Jon-Bennett.

High profile cases are more likely to be cleared. Cleared and solved does not mean the same thing. Cleared means that someone who can reasonably be suspected of being guilty has been arrested. Solved means that the right person was arrested.
With high-profile cases, there are plenty of nutjobs who would be happy to claim credit. The job of the police is to make sure that those nutjobs's confessions match the actual evidence, usually by correcting them as the confess and making sure that only the final confession with all of the correct details gets recorded.
Vaevictis
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685)
Or else carry portable jammers with them, which is a Very Good Idea.

This is not so much a good idea for stopping someone from tracing you. Jammers work by spewing a bunch of crap out over RF to overwhelm the target signal. An electronic warfare geek will just say, "Well crap, I can't trace the signal I'm looking for because someone's jamming the signal. Oh well, I'll just trace the source of the jamming."

Jamming is good for stopping people from communicating or transmitting data, but it's the RF equivalent of tossing a superflash grenade.
Sir_Psycho
Murder is not always a top priority. If you blow away a few gangers in an alleyway, do you really think the Star is going to devote more than a few glances at the bodies before they're carted to the morgue as John Doe's? Same goes with any lower class character, including most Shadowrunners.

When you're geeking an upper/middle class citizen, you have to more careful about it, of course.
ShadowDragon8685
QUOTE (Vaevictis)
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Jan 30 2007, 06:21 PM)
Or else carry portable jammers with them, which is a Very Good Idea.

This is not so much a good idea for stopping someone from tracing you. Jammers work by spewing a bunch of crap out over RF to overwhelm the target signal. An electronic warfare geek will just say, "Well crap, I can't trace the signal I'm looking for because someone's jamming the signal. Oh well, I'll just trace the source of the jamming."

Jamming is good for stopping people from communicating or transmitting data, but it's the RF equivalent of tossing a superflash grenade.

I didn't say it was a long-term soloution. But it'll do until you can get inside somewhere they have radio-blocking wallpaper.

Which is the good thing about radio-blocking wallpaper. As soon as you're inside, they can't see your jamming any more than they can see what's inside the jamming. If you switch off said jamming, AND shut off the tracking signal and walk out again, it looks exactly the same to them as if you'd gone to ground inside the place with radio-blocking wallpaper.
tisoz
If the players are not playing according to your vision of the universe, it is pretty much your fault. Give them descriptions that help flesh out your vision. Use their contacts to bestow knowledge of how you think the universe works. Use NPCs to give them hints.

Looting, have a contact explain all the ways they can be tracked or how many different ways this endangers the mission and why it is a bad idea. Have the person they are trying to sell it to reject the loot because of whatever reason you think looting is such a bad idea. The excessive violence - have the contact explain why that was a bad idea. The abusing the Mr. Johnson example - have the Johnson walk out. Then have a contact explain to them why that happened. Instead of cancelling the game that night, roleplay the PCs talking to their contacts trying to find work and their contacts explaining why it ain't gonna happen until they adjust their actions to conform to your vision of the universe. Maybe downgrade or lose that contact if the contact would not want to be associated with the PC. And yes, deduct lifestyle expense while they twist in the wind trying to find the next job.

Keep it all in character and it will be more fulfilling than trying to argue points out of character. Also, have the players roll the PCs skills or attributes to see if the character would know better than to act contrary to the way you envision the universe.
mrlost
Well to the OP

Our group which consists of a Japanese-Russian homosexual hacker/rigger racist/misogynistic pacifist (me), an Elf fixer/face who gets us jobs and usually goes along to supervise, a Sammie/Razor-girl, a Dwarven combat mage, and a Trickster aspected illusionist/conjurer Ork ascetic with a mono-whip.

We don't accept assassination jobs (ethical reasons), and our usual M.O. is to case the joint, hire some other runners to create a distraction or as needed, infiltrate and incapacitate, then meet up with our Johnston after to receive the second half of our fee.

Lethal force is a last resort, usually since it tends to be easier to incapacitate rather than kill, and because we have a rep to maintain. Though if all hell breaks loose we do too, especially the Combat Mage and the Razor girl, at the first sign of trouble they usually break out the big spell/guns.

Currently, it looks like we'll be doing a pro bono operation on behalf of the U.C.A.S. S.I.N.less Rights Movement in the very near future, which is really going to piss off some of my Humanis Policlub contacts if they find out (the movement leader is an Orkish trance-hop musician). But my character's husband has been pressuring to be more tolerant.

EDIT: we have as of yet never looted, never pillaged. Although we might take a guards stuff if one of the group members disguises themselves as her, we tend to use our own equipment which is usually as good or better than the opposition, if its worse we tend to retreat as quick as we can (which its usually my job to facilitate). We play as if we we're highly professional mercenaries (who happen to have more than a few ethical members), and not a party of D&D adventurers.
Vaevictis
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685)
I didn't say it was a long-term soloution. But it'll do until you can get inside somewhere they have radio-blocking wallpaper.

It's not even a shot term solution, if your goal is to avoid being traced.

Like I said, any EW or decker will just triangulate on the jammer.

You only break out a wide-spectrum jammer when you don't give a damn about stealth. It's literally the RF equivalent of a superflash -- anyone who's doing anything with RF (chatting on a cell phone, using a tranceiver, wireless internet, or trying to trace you via a tracer) will immediately know you're there.

I do agree with you that it's a useful thing for any runner to have, it's just that I disagree that it's useful for stopping people from tracing you. smile.gif
Kagetenshi
It's decent for that. You start the jammer, drop it somewhere, then get into cover before it's found and disabled.

Downside is, you're down one high-powered jammer.

~J
ShadowDragon8685
You can also use it and a radio-inhibited building to "dissapear". You run inside the building, and suddenly their triangulation goes dead. Depending on whether they were "Locked on" or not, they may know which door you went into, or the may only know which block you were on. Once inside said building, fry out the RFID beacons on whatever it is you stole (If you have to, pull out an arc torch or a Stick 'n 'shock, apply directly to RFID chip) switch the jammer off, and exit.

Or, of course, for decoys. smile.gif
Herald of Verjigorm
Every plan has room for three small drones with high powered jammers being run on an erratic slow-approach vector to some paranoid location. Sometimes it's better to have them "assaulting" a facility that is completely unrelated to your actual target but is in the same Lone Star precinct or a neighboring one.
Vaevictis
I suppose a jammer's better than nothing if you've already got pursuit, given that you can leave the scanner behind while you move.

But in general, I'd rather just have a scanner running in the background looking for the signals or better yet, a Faraday cage of somekind.
ShadowDragon8685
QUOTE (Vaevictis)
I suppose a jammer's better than nothing if you've already got pursuit, given that you can leave the scanner behind while you move.

But in general, I'd rather just have a scanner running in the background looking for the signals or better yet, a Faraday cage of somekind.

Hence why I mentioned radio-inhibiting backpacks. smile.gif
Ed Simons
QUOTE (ChronoGib)
I seem to have a different impression of what the SR world is like then my players and I was wondering how other groups run.  I know I'm posing a no-right-answers question, but I'm curious how others play. 
 
I've noticed my players have tendencies like; 
1) Take anything not bolted down and assume the consequences can be dealt with.  (Like taking comlinks for the sole purpose of selling them later.)


There's smart looting and dumb looting. If it gets in the way of completing the run it's definitely dumb. Otherwise it a tradeoff - how valuable and portable is the item and how soon can the PCs expect heavy opposition to arrive?

QUOTE (ChronoGib)
2) Be excessively violent.  Example A, if they get attacked while in a gang's territory the players slaughter the gangers then chase down anyone trying to flee


Actually, that's often a good idea. Damage a gang and they will likely seek revenge to maintain street cred. Cripple them, and the rest are more likely to put survival higher than revenge, even if rival gangs don't wipe them out.

OTOH, how do the PC's know the fleeing gangers aren't leading them into an ambush?

QUOTE (ChronoGib)
(then do #1 with the bodies, luckily organs count as bolted down).


Okay, they're amateurs. smile.gif A few bodies, especially those with visible ware, chucked in the back of the van and a quick visit to the right streetdoc should score some tasty nuyen.

QUOTE (ChronoGib)
Example B, the guy's already hiding under his desk, but they decide to kick him in the head for no reason.


Another good call on their part. You don't want the guy calling anyone who might interfere with the run so your choices are kill him, tie him up, or knock him out. Tying him up is slow. Killing him is quick, but it leaves more forensics evidence. It also guarantees all opposition will fight until they take Deadly physical damage, which makes the run harder. And if you later realize the dead guy had info you need to complete the run, you can't make him not-dead. But a simple boot to the head leaves a unconscious guy who can be stimpatched if you need to question him, among other uses.

QUOTE (ChronoGib)
3) Disrespect Johnsons by being rude and acting like they call all the shots.  (I'd have the Johnson just walk out if I wasn't trying to establish certain characters and events for the plot)


Have the Johnson walk anyway. I like the deduct three months lifestyle suggestion.

You can always get back to the plot, just reschedule the events later in time.
Ed Simons
QUOTE (Thane36425)
Looting gangers that cross you might get away with, but picking that R&D lab clean is really going to tick off the corp in question.


Presuming the PCs have the skills to know what is valuable and what isn't in an R&D lab, how could they possibly have the time to pick it clean?

QUOTE (Thane36425)
If this is a problem though, here is something I once did. The team was raiding a not so big firm to steal some R&D material. In the process, they stole a lot of other material. What they didn't know was that the firm was a subsidiary of Aztechnology and some of the extra material they stole was part of a compartmentalized, and thus very important and secret, program. They ended up in a world of shit and had to high tail it out of Seattle, with a bad rep for some time, being too hot for most Johnsons to bother with.


I'm not following. Why would this bring extra heat and a rep hit on the Runners?
Ed Simons
QUOTE (Pendaric)
I had the team hijack a smugglers GMC Banshee to cross borders after a double cross, one player was desperate to sell it but having run out of fuel in the desert and doing things on the fly he was hitting brickwalls, eventually walked away.

Why didn't the PC go back for it later, once he had some gas?
Ed Simons
QUOTE (Crakkerjakk)
One thing I always thought made sense was from a documentary on police CSIs on the discovery channel.  Basically, two rules.  Rule One: If a crime is a high enough priority, it can almost always be solved.  Rule Two: Murder is always top priority.


Both of these points are quite false.

Here's a better list of rules.

QUOTE (Crakkerjakk)
A lot more resources get devoted to tracking down mass murderers than expert thieves.


This is quite true.

But if the amount of resources thrown at a problems was a guarantee of success, then AIDS and cancer would be cured.

Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (Ed Simons)
QUOTE (Pendaric)
I had the team hijack a smugglers GMC Banshee to cross borders after a double cross, one player was desperate to sell it but having run out of fuel in the desert and doing things on the fly he was hitting brickwalls, eventually walked away.

Why didn't the PC go back for it later, once he had some gas?

Either he didn't want to walk through the desert with all that gas, or else the GM would simply claim that someone else got there first and stole it.
Ed Simons
QUOTE (Sir_Psycho)
Murder is not always a top priority. If you blow away a few gangers in an alleyway, do you really think the Star is going to devote more than a few glances at the bodies before they're carted to the morgue as John Doe's? Same goes with any lower class character, including most Shadowrunners.

When you're geeking an upper/middle class citizen, you have to more careful about it, of course.


Very, very true.

In fact, unless they've specifically been called, Lonestar is likely to do nothing about those ganger bodies. Chance of solving the crime is very low, which hurts crime statistics, which is bad for business. Dealing with the body involves expenses, which cuts into profits, which the boss doesn't like, either.

But if the Star ignores those dead bodies (unless a crime is actually reported by someone with a SIN) local scavengers, ghoul or otherwise, should clean things up. That means lower crime statistics on your shift which makes you look better to your boss and allows the PR department to truthfully say that crime statistics have gotten better since Lonestar got the contract.

More enterprising members of the Star may do their own bit to keep those statistics down as well as avoiding the always-loathed paperwork. Organleggers will pay good nuyen for a SINless stiff, and since they won't report the death, either, everyone's happy. The organlegger doesn't have to hunt up business. You get a nice off-the-books bonus. Your boss can show improved profitability and lower crime statistics. And the general public sleeps better, knowing those crime statistics are down. biggrin.gif
Ed Simons
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)
QUOTE (Ed Simons @ Feb 4 2007, 05:12 PM)
QUOTE (Pendaric)
I had the team hijack a smugglers GMC Banshee to cross borders after a double cross, one player was desperate to sell it but having run out of fuel in the desert and doing things on the fly he was hitting brickwalls, eventually walked away.

Why didn't the PC go back for it later, once he had some gas?

Either he didn't want to walk through the desert with all that gas, or else the GM would simply claim that someone else got there first and stole it.

1) Walking through the desert for $750,000 nuyen is a lot safer and better pay than any run I've seen.

2) Why would he walk back? A bike with off-road suspension will easily fit into the cargo space of a Banshee.

3) If the GM really is that much of a jerk, it's good to prove it so you can drop the game.
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