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JanessaVR
I have some questions that hopefully someone here can point me to some
answers on:

A) What exactly are the bounties on Ghouls and other para-critter menaces? Are we talking spare change or some decent nuyen?

B) In 4e, there apparently are no rules on Disease Resistance Tests or the specifics of HMHVV infection possibilities (something which runners never seem to contract, no matter how many ghouls bite them or bleed all over them with all of their bodily fluids carrying the highly infectious Krieger Strain of HMHVV). Any older references on this that actually have specific game mechanic entries?
cristomeyers
Don't know about canon, but:

Bounties would vary from place to place depending on the Ghoul population and their threat to the outside world. If there's maybe one nest that really only snags street rats, there's not going to be much of a bounty. I would say start at 750 nuyen a head and work from there.

Disease resistance in 3rd, if I remember correctly, was a Body test. For Ghouls, I would say a Body test with a threshold of how much damage was dealt by the Ghoul to the player. If they fail, they're infected.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (JanessaVR)
Any older references on this that actually have specific game mechanic entries?

Companion Revised (SR3) and Target: UCAS (SR2).

Getting infected with KHMHVV is not nice, but it has an incubation time of about one month and can be treated.

Otherwise it's a illness resistence test that need 3 hits (formerly against essence as TN, wich is <=5) for no effects (but possible host if not treated), a nasty 'flu' for 2, 1 causing ghul-look, and 0 being the actual thing.
Dread Polack
Isn't it illegal to pay a bounty for killing ghouls in the UCAS? IIRC, Dunkelzahn got that law passed.

Dread Polack
sunnyside
Actually the SR3 companion even told you about playing as a ghoul after the change. You might have to translate things a little, but I thought it was pretty good.
Thane36425
Ghoul bounties vary widely. In Seattle it was about 100 nuten for a male and 150 for a female. In Germany it was EC 10,000, and in England it was 25,000 either pounds of Nuyen, can't remember which. Fat chance collecting it though since pretty mcuh everything that could be a weapon was banned or regulated and mages had to give material samples and have implant bombs to make sure you behaved.

I always thought Seattle's bounty was low, but that was probably a game mechanic. It was set low so all new players wouldn't go out and get rich quick killing ghouls.
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (sunnyside)
Actually the SR3 companion even told you about playing as a ghoul after the change.  You might have to translate things a little, but I thought it was pretty good.

If by "good" you mean "the rules do not generate the NPC ghouls that existed before, during, and after those rules were current" then yes. If you might mean something like "rules that were fairly balanced and allowed players to have characters which vaguely matched up with the ghouls demonstrated everywhere else in the game" - then no. Those rules were shit.

QUOTE
I always thought Seattle's bounty was low, but that was probably a game mechanic. It was set low so all new players wouldn't go out and get rich quick killing ghouls.


Absolutely. While a bounty on a Sioux Scalp has been as low as $25, that was back in 1863, when that was worth about 416 bucks in todays money. That's a good baseline minimum for what someone might accept in order to kill a sapient person and take a gruesome trophy in for a reward.

Still, the days of going into dungeons sewers and fighting Ghouls for cash are over. Thankfully, that was kind of dumb.

-Frank
Dale
My 2 nuyen.gif are that ghouls are a walking plague that need to be hunted to extinction.
Draug
My 2 nuyen.gif are tossed into Frank Trollman's hat. Da capo!
JanessaVR
QUOTE (Dale @ Feb 12 2007, 08:31 PM)
My 2  nuyen.gif  are that ghouls are a walking plague that need to be hunted to extinction.

Dale: My thoughts exactly. I'm thinking my new Elf Chaos Mage has a weekend hobby of hunting ghouls - call it voluntary community service (we all have our own definitions of being civic-minded). I was just curious if it could at least supply some spending nuyen for the effort - and the risks of infection if you let one of the nasty things get too close to you...
ShadowDragon8685
Why was the bounty higher on female ghouls?


[edit]How did they determine the gender - drag the entire day's haul back to Mr. Johnson?
JanessaVR
QUOTE (Thane36425)
Fat chance collecting it though since pretty mcuh everything that could be a weapon was banned or regulated and mages had to give material samples and have implant bombs to make sure you behaved.

Implant bombs? I read the London book some time ago and I remember the tissue samples but I must have missed the implant bombs! Yikes! *Really* avoiding the UK for any future runs...geez...
TBRMInsanity
Gouls are not hunted in the UCAS and CAS. In the NAN they are just killed if they are found near towns or cities. In Quebec they is still a bounty on their heads. You will have to look it up in the Shadows of North America to see how much it is.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (JanessaVR)
QUOTE (Dale @ Feb 12 2007, 08:31 PM)
My 2  nuyen.gif  are that ghouls are a walking plague that need to be hunted to extinction.

Dale: My thoughts exactly. I'm thinking my new Elf Chaos Mage has a weekend hobby of hunting ghouls - call it voluntary community service (we all have our own definitions of being civic-minded). I was just curious if it could at least supply some spending nuyen for the effort - and the risks of infection if you let one of the nasty things get too close to you...

You know the very best place to hunt for ghoul bounties? Asamando. Getting your trophies across the border will be trouble but you'll never be at a loss for game.
Sir_Psycho
Just because there aren't government sanctioned ghoul bounties, doesn't mean us shadowrunners don't get hired to put some lead on ghoul communities.
Thane36425
QUOTE (JanessaVR)
QUOTE (Thane36425 @ Feb 12 2007, 06:08 PM)
Fat chance collecting it though since pretty mcuh everything that could be a weapon was banned or regulated and mages had to give material samples and have implant bombs to make sure you behaved.

Implant bombs? I read the London book some time ago and I remember the tissue samples but I must have missed the implant bombs! Yikes! *Really* avoiding the UK for any future runs...geez...

I've been looking for that reference but can't find it. It was mentioned in a published mission I played years ago. Maybe that was in Tir Nan Nog that they did that? It is probably in one of the books that is currently hiding from me.
Sir_Psycho
I seriously doubt it was Tir Nan Og, them bein' so magic lovin' and all. Fraggin' daisy eaters.
Slump
If you were a sick and twisted individual, you could easily exploit ghoul bounties by just getting a bunch of squatters infected, shoving them into a cage until they transformed, then killing them to collect the bounty. All you'd need to do is capture one ghoul, and you could make all the ghouls you wanted.

Hired to clear out a building full of squatters? Why not get paid twice! Heck, for the squatters that didn't survive, you could probably find some ghoul-sympathizers to sell the meat to!
Aaron
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685)
Why was the bounty higher on female ghouls?

For the same reason that modern hunters are required to kill a doe before being allowed to kill a buck during deer hunting season when the herd is too large: the female is necessary for breeding.

QUOTE
How did they determine the gender - drag the entire day's haul back to Mr. Johnson?

There are a number of body parts that can be used for sex identification, including the hands, the head, the pelvis, the mammary, and the genitalia.
ShadowDragon8685
You know, when it comes to ghouls, somehow I suspect that sexual reproduction is probably far and away in the minority compared to infective reproduction.

Plus, walking around with hacked-off body parts is a really good way to get infected yourself...
bibliophile20
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685)
You know, when it comes to ghouls, somehow I suspect that sexual reproduction is probably far and away in the minority compared to infective reproduction.

actually, according to the SR3 companion, most of the ghouls in the world were born that way.
Crakkerjakk
Seems like the problem with classic werewolves to me. You get bitten by a werewolf, you turn into one. Reason why the world isn't everflowing with werewolves? You gotta survive a werewolf attack first.
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685)
You know, when it comes to ghouls, somehow I suspect that sexual reproduction is probably far and away in the minority compared to infective reproduction.

I see where you're coming from, here, but then I'm walking around at work and I see a couple who weigh close to a half-ton between them and suddenly ghoul procreation becomes a little more believable.

The feral ones probably breed like any wild animal, and the civilized ones eventually get lonely/horny and hook up with each other.
FrankTrollman
Ghoul reproduction really isn't that weird if you think about it for a while. Let's consider the problems that ghouls have getting laid:
  • They Smell Really Bad.
    Well, they smell really bad to non-ghouls. To other Ghouls they smell virile and attractive. So that's not really a problem.
  • They look like crap.
    Well, they look all funky on the physical plane - they are also blind on the physical plane and get around entirely by astral perception. And astrally, they look much more alive and powerful than the pale shadows that mundane humans look like.
  • They are all clawed and shit.
    Not a problem if your potental mate also has claws. In fact, when you get up in the morning with a strength of 6, you probably don't even want to have sex with normal humans - they're like little girls to you.

Really, once you get over the minor details like "humans are genetically determined to enter a fight-or-flight response upon seeing or smelling a Ghoul" - they're actually pretty hot. A person who becomes a Ghoul is more than twice as strong and gains less than 10% body mass. So they are extremely athletic and healthy - prime breeding stock except for the whole thing where their mere presence invkes an instinctual revulsion response in normal metahumans.

And other Ghouls don't have that response, so from their perspective every Ghoul woman is built like Keira Knightley and is immune to preeclampsia. Seriously, how could you not hit that?

-Frank
Crakkerjakk
How's that song go? "ooo that smell... can't you smell that smell...."
Draug
"Yeah baby! Shake that aura!"
Jack Kain
The Krieger strain of HMHVV is the one that causes people to e transformed into ghouls. The reason it is the most feared is it doesn't require being carried off and having your essence drain away like with the primary strain that creates vampires. Usually this is fatal anyway, doesn't matter if you become a vampire or not he drained your essence to 0. Your dead with out some serious medical treatment. "Lost Essence can never be regained (short of the Essence Drain critter power)."

Most people who become infected with the ghoul strain and actually become ghouls are the poor and sinless individuals. Both could be required.
Someone who is poor but still had a SIN card might be entitled to treatment for HMHVV by law.

Someone who is not poor but still SINless say a shadowrunner is of course not poor and by that they have money and could either bribe someone or use a fake SIN card and get treatment.

The most likely event of a runner becoming a ghoul would be if they went for treatment they'd be recognized and arrested. So they sit and hope they havenít contracted the disease.

Its also possible that someone who is infected but not yet transformed could pass on the disease. As "Krieger infection can be passed on through contact with any bodily fluids from one already infected."

In response to CrakkerJack the Jarka-Criscione strain turns humans into loup-garou described as basically a werewolf.


I recall from the sega shadowwrun game ghoul hunting ranging from 25 to 250 a head. Depending on your skills. With a maximum of 20 kills.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Crakkerjakk @ Feb 13 2007, 02:09 PM)
Seems like the problem with classic werewolves to me.  You get bitten by a werewolf, you turn into one.  Reason why the world isn't everflowing with werewolves?  You gotta survive a werewolf attack first.

The thing is that Ghouls aren't predators. They're scavengers and they are carrion-eaters. Unlike vampires, they can't eat you. If they kill you, they'll have to haul your corpse around for several days until they can eat you. Attacks by feral ghouls should be rare for this reason. Ghouls are more likely to attack a morgue than mall because the morgue has take-out.
When feral ghouls do attack people, there is one of two motivations. First is territorial. When you violate their den they see you as a threat. They attack to protect their home. The second is due to food pressure. When there isn't enough dead meat to go around, they might just make dead meat and go through the trouble of storing it until it rots. In high-class areas, where it is rare to find unattended rotting metahuman corpses in the streets, this may be more common than it should be, but there is no reasonable excuse for it in the barrens where homeless people freeze to death on a regular basis.

Feral ghouls are more likely to attack you because you are standing near a rotting corpse and they mistakenly believe that you want to eat it too than because they are hungry and want to eat you.

They're vultures, not wolves.
Crakkerjakk
I didn't realize they had to wait for it to rot. I had assumed that they could only drain essence from living(or recently so) creatures.

Thanks for the correction:-)
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Crakkerjakk)
I didn't realize they had to wait for it to rot. I had assumed that they could only drain essence from living(or recently so) creatures.

Thanks for the correction:-)

Creatures with Essence Drain can only feed off of the living.

Ghouls don't have Essence Drain. The virus changes their digestive system so that they can only eat raw rotten meat. The diet of carrion is the cause of their unique small. They also have to eat a small amount of rotting metahuman flesh for no apparent reason.

Crakkerjakk
Well, now I know(and knowing is half the battle.) I thought they did have essence drain. Obviously, today is my day to be wrong.
FrankTrollman
It's one of the many facts that makes "Krieger Strain HMHVV" a bad description for the disease that causes Ghoul transformation. There are others:
  1. Viruses are not named after specific humans, and have not been since the 1980s. Thus, no virus is ever going to be named "Krieger Strain". That's bad sci-fi right there.
  2. People turn into ghouls without infection. People get the infection without turning into ghouls. The virus causes ghoulishness in the same way that HPV causes Cervical Cancer: having the disease makes you way more likely to have the condition, but the virus only correlates with the condition. There's no 1:1 correspondance like there is for Vampirism.
  3. Ghouls are not vampires, and do not share any of the signature abilities or magical limitations of the Vampiric virus.
  4. Ghoul transformation takes months, not days.
  5. Ghouls don't eat Essence or the living.
  6. Ghouls need normal caloric intake, Vampires do not.
  7. Ghouls are alive during the entire transformation, Vampires die and then a vampire is created afterwards.

Seriously, there is absolutely no reason to classify the virus that spreads Ghoul Transformation as Krieger Strain HMHVV. Calling it that just causes confusion amongst people in the world and players of the game.

--

In character, that would be the reason to attempt to classify Ghoul transformational viruses as strains of HMHVV - not because there is any scientific reason to classify it in that manner, but as a propaganda tool against Ghouls.

-Frank
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
People turn into ghouls without infection.

Unless you can present solid proof, that would be: no.
Per canon, ghoulism was thought to be a form of goblinisation - until it was discovered that it is only caused by a virus.

QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
In character, that would be the reason to attempt to classify Ghoul transformational viruses as strains of HMHVV - not because there is any scientific reason to classify it in that manner, but as a propaganda tool against Ghouls.

The HMHVV family is determined scientifically, even if every strain causes different results.
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)

The HMHVV family is determined scientifically, even if every strain causes different results.

That's... not how science works. The ICTV is a real body that has real methodology and generates real names, not made-up shit.

If HMHVV is a familiy, it would have a family name.. like "Vampirism Viridae", it would not be called "Human Metahuman Vampiric Virus" because that's a fucking species name and a family name must be a single word followed by the word viridae. In fact, anything that ends in the word "virus" is a genus or species by definition.

Really. You can't scientifically determine the family name "Human-Metahuman Vampiric Virus". It doesn't matter what chemicals the ghoul transformation virus and the virus that kills people and raises their corpses as wendigo have in common - there is a fundamental nomenclature problem with that statement.

Now under the Baltimore Classification system, meta-viruses would at the very least be a new and separate group (Group VIII as it happens), and thus the Ghoul Transformation Virus and the Human-Meta Human Vampiric Virus would be in the same group. But that group would be called "Group VIII: Magically Active Viruses", not "Human Metahuman Vampiric Virus".

---

Every so often someone makes a complete blunder and gets their terminology completely wrong and make statements that make no damned sense at all when viewed at any level. Sometimes those people even write Shadowrun books.

Here, you can even check out the Simple Version of Virus taxonomy, or the Medium-Length Version. Since you obviously don't have any idea what you're talking about, I'll spare you the full deal.

But here's the important parts:

QUOTE
No person's name shall be used.


So it is impossible for a Virus to be scientifically named "Krieger Strain".

QUOTE
A virus species is defined as a polythetic class of viruses that constitutes a replicating lineage and occupies a particular ecological niche.


That means that, for example, if one virus transfers only into dead tissue and replicates in a dead individual, and another virus transmits through blood from living host to living host - that it's a different species. And since strains are a smaller order of classification than species - two viruses that do those two things are definitionally not strains of one another.

-Frank
toturi
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
But here's the important parts:

QUOTE
No person's name shall be used.


So it is impossible for a Virus to be scientifically named "Krieger Strain".

QUOTE
A virus species is defined as a polythetic class of viruses that constitutes a replicating lineage and occupies a particular ecological niche.


That means that, for example, if one virus transfers only into dead tissue and replicates in a dead individual, and another virus transmits through blood from living host to living host - that it's a different species. And since strains are a smaller order of classification than species - two viruses that do those two things are definitionally not strains of one another.

-Frank

RL =! SR.

But you as a contributor/wirter could change that, Frank. And if you can't, then somebody decided that RL really isn't canon SR, and what can the rest of us peons do?
ShadowDragon8685
How do you know that the taxonomy hasen't been changed between now and the outbreak of HMMHV?
kzt
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
Every so often someone makes a complete blunder and gets their terminology completely wrong and make statements that make no damned sense at all when viewed at any level. Sometimes those people even write Shadowrun books.

I thought those people only wrote the gun and computer rules?
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (toturi)
But you as a contributor/wirter could change that, Frank. And if you can't, then somebody decided that RL really isn't canon SR, and what can the rest of us peons do?

Unfortunately, there isn't wordcount to straighten this out in Augmentation. I have high hopes that it can be worked out in Running Wild. For now, all I can do is fume though. wink.gif

QUOTE
How do you know that the taxonomy hasen't been changed between now and the outbreak of HMMHV?


HMHVV. Actually, taxonomy has changed. It changes constantly. Just the fact that some viruses operate on a magical level rather than by something as straightforward as inserting RNA that is reverse transcribed into DNA which is then inserted into the host's genome, and then subsequently translated off in order to create more viruses... means that there has to be at least one more group of viruses. More probably you'd have more like 3. Or 8. Or 16. I would personally classify a virus that inserts DNA into a host which them instigated magical changes on the host as different from a virus which didn't insert anything but merely attached to a cell and instigated magical effects causing the virus to be replicated. The potential number of virus vectors when you factor in Magic far exceeds the number of vectors we have now, and I would expect corresponding taxonomical bloat.

But the idea of taxonomy hasn't changed. The word "species" still means in '70 what it means in '07. Elves and Dwarves are the same species (homo sapiens) because they can interbreed without difficulty (if not without hilarity). In fact, the structure of the taxonomical names is known to be the same.

But sometimes someone writing the fluff gets their latin wrong and you get incorrect species names on something. Hell, this sort of "bad nomenclature" has plagued Ghouls since the very first edition: Ghouls were listed as being of species horridus - which is factually incorrect because Ghouls have always been able to interbreed with humans if they wanted. The thing to do at this point is not to come up with increasingly elaborate schemes for why that nomenclature might be correct in the future - it is to simply roll your eyes and scribble in some correct jargon.

QUOTE
Unless you can present solid proof, that would be: no.


According to Cyberpirates, Ghoul transformation is a one-time genetic change which is in turn true-breeding. That means that:
  • Ghouls remain ghouls if the infection is removed.
    and
  • The Children of Ghouls will often be Ghouls whether or not they have ever carried the virus.

Now, the old rules also talk about people spontaneously goblinizing into ghouls without former contact with other ghouls. Even if you consider all of that retconned out of existence, the Ghoul traits are still genetic and sustainable independent of a virus that brings them about.

-Frank
Jack Kain
All the magically mutating virus are named after HMHVV as vampries came first then the others followed. Its called HMHVV with some other name of the various strains for ease of use on the players. 99% don't want dozens of names for the virus's that cause these mutations we just want ONE.

elf (Homo sapiens nobilis),
dwarf (Homo sapiens pumilionis),
ork (Homo sapiens robustus), and
troll (Homo sapiens ingentis)

You maintain they are all Homo sapiens because they can interbreed with out difficulty.
You also forget that shadowrun is fiction not real life. In real life different species can't interbreed and produce viable off-spring(off-spring that can reproduce)
A Troll looks further removed from a human then Homo neanderthalensis (Neanderthal) do from use homo sapiens.

A ghoul is even further gone.
Then of course quote me an official game manual any edition (Novels are crap) that has a ghoul interbreeding with another metahuman?

So to cling to the idea they must be the same species based of the fact they can interbreed. (A fact of life almost no sci-fi or fantasy setting has followed. is stupid, quit acting like that dork in the movie theater who says the lasers should be invisible and there aren't explosions or sound in space.

Why don't you complain how when an Elf and a Troll have a kid the child is somehow either one or the other and not a mix of both. Doesn't that fly in the face of science just as much as everything else you've been complaining about?
Modesitt
QUOTE (Jack Kain)
Why don't you complain how when an Elf and a Troll have a kid the child is somehow either one or the other and not a mix of both. Doesn't that fly in the face of science just as much as everything else you've been complaining about?

Response #1: It's magic!
Response #2: It's science! Genes do not necessarily blend together to create an in-between state. In real life, adding black and white together does not automatically equal gray. Sometimes it equals white, sometimes it equals black, and sometimes it equals both.
LabRat
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
If HMHVV is a familiy, it would have a family name.. like "Vampirism Viridae", it would not be called "Human Metahuman Vampiric Virus" because that's a fucking species name and a family name must be a single word followed by the word viridae.


Not necessarily has to be. Take Hepatitis as and example. All Hepatitis viruses - for instance A, B, C - are named Hepatits [Letter] Virus. However they are all viruses of different families causing hower the same or similar pathology: a disease of the liver.

Could be same for HMHVV. There is HMHVV1-4 that have been nicknamed unscientifically in the media and cause the same pathology: vampirism.

They *could* be variants of the same virus, like Influenza. In this case HMHVV-1 would be a genus of HMHVV virus family that has a scientifical name. However, this is IMHO irrelevant in most SR texts.

I agree with you however in terms of the Krieger strain and I added some lines in the genetech chapterfor Augmentation because of that.

Second, I also partially agree with the naming of virus according to TODAYS convention (with the Eppstein-barr virus being the only exception). However conventiones tend to change. This might be especially the case, if results have been published by corps or if breakthrough results have been achieved by a single or limited number of persons and not - as today - by vast research group networking together (with a names list on the publication that goes over a couple of lines)

LabRat
TonkaTuff
Actually, Metahumans either breeding true or producing a genetic throwback (plain humans) does make some sense from a scientific perspective. You can illustrate it (albeit greatly oversimplified) with a Punnet Square.

.... T ..... h
----------------
E | E/T | E/h
---------+-----
h | T/h | h/h

E= Elf traits
T= Troll traits
h = Human baseline

Despite how different they appear, metas aren't separate, but related humanoid species (as asses, horses and, zebras are related species of genus Equus), but distinct phenotypes (subspecies) of the h. sapiens genotype. One's Elvishness, Orkishness, etc. is, essentially, the result of a specific combination of alleles - much like blue eyes or the ability to fold your tongue - under the influence of ambient mana. The taxonomy used for the different metaypes (h. sapiens <whatever>) would tend to back this up. For whatever reason, in the SR universe, the E/T combo (for example) simply doesn't produce a viable fetus.



Moon-Hawk
Frank, my theory on why the virus names are as they are has always been:
All "strains" of HMHVV are the same virus. By any scientific examination they are exactly the same. The exact same base pairs.
The virus that turns you into a vampire and the virus that turns you into a ghoul are the exact same; your electron microscope and gene sequencer can not tell the difference.
The differences are in the 4th dimentional "astral shadows" that we heard about in some of the old-edition talks about meta-genes.
Obviously, current laws of classification can not appropriately apply to this situation, so they made some new rules.
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)
Frank, my theory on why the virus names are as they are has always been:
All "strains" of HMHVV are the same virus. By any scientific examination they are exactly the same. The exact same base pairs.
The virus that turns you into a vampire and the virus that turns you into a ghoul are the exact same; your electron microscope and gene sequencer can not tell the difference.
The differences are in the 4th dimentional "astral shadows" that we heard about in some of the old-edition talks about meta-genes.
Obviously, current laws of classification can not appropriately apply to this situation, so they made some new rules.

Actually... the rules of virus classification do apply in that instance, because Virus species are defined non-genetically. This is unsurprising, because a lot of viruses have no DNA!

A virus species is defined by its ability to replicate itself and its distinct ecological niche. It doesn't matter if two viruses have the same DNA, or even if current assays can't tell two viruses apart - if one replicates itself only in living tissue and the other replicates itself only in dead tissue, it's a different species.

QUOTE (Labrat)
Not necessarily has to be. Take Hepatitis as and example.


That's a really crappy example. Hepatitis is a disease, a set of symptoms that accompany a viral attack of he liver. Various viruses with wholly different actions and chemistry cause liver damage and are named correspondingly:

Hepatitis A Virus (HAV)
Hepatitis B Virus (HBV)
Hepatitis C Virus (HCV)
etc.

But they aren' classified together. They aren't in the same family, and they certainly aren't strains of one another. In fact, you'll note that they don't even have the same name. It isn't "Hepatitis Virus: A", its actual name is "Hepatitis A Virus".

Going by that model, if all the various vampirism viruses caused vampirism and were named appropriately, it would look something like this:

HMHVV (Vampirism)
HMHV2V (Lycanthropy)
etc.

The problem with this set-up is that the distinctly vampiric traits: reanimation of dead tissue, Essence Draining, Canibalism - these do not appear in a bunch of the transformational viruses in canon Shadowrun. This means that you'd have to be fucking high to classify them as a vampiric virus. How far do you honestly think you would get with Nature trying to publish your work on Vampiric Viruses that don't cause Vampirism?

QUOTE (Labrat)
Second, I also partially agree with the naming of virus according to TODAYS convention (with the Eppstein-barr virus being the only exception).


EBV is not an exception. It was named in 1967 and the regulations on names explicitly reject changing the nomenclature of viruses named before 1980. Unless someone has a time machine and a nosferatu, Krieger Strain is not possible.

---

Really, the whole Ghoul nomenclature is messed up and has been messed up since 1989. And every time someone comes in top throw some more pseudo-science at it to try to justify the previously messed up nomenclature, the nomenclature gets more messed up.

What we need is seriously two sentences:

"Ghoul Transformation Virus (GTV) causes many of the humans and metahumans infected with it to transform into Ghouls, and is the cause of a significant portion of the cases of Ghoul transformation. It has been incendiarily linked with HMHVV by Dr. Krieger, a charge that has caused backlashes against Ghouls throughout the world."

Boom. Done. All the stupid pseudo-science gets neatly wrapped up as stupid pseudo-science and people move on. Let's face it: the only reason to call Ghoul Transformation Virus a strain of Vampirism is to cause world-wide panic and confusion about what Ghouls do and require. On this very thread we had people genuinely confused that Ghouls didn't kill people and drain their Essence. Imagine how massive the confusion would be for people actually in the world.

From the stand-point of scientific nomenclature, "Krieger Strain HMHVV" wouldn't be called "Krieger Strain" and it wouldn't be called "HMHVV". But from a propaganda standpoint - calling the virus that would be a very successful way to convince people that Ghouls were baby-eating monsters that had to be destroyed before they killed or enslaved humanity.

-Frank
Demerzel
Someone needs to change shooting target under Frank's name into Ghoul Rights Advocate
Jack Kain

Hansen disease is accept name for leprosy. They renamed the disease after him.

Franky why the hell do you care?
The shadowrun world has declared that the virus that cause further transformation in metahumans is HMHVV.
The game has long sense declared that one can be infected by a ghoul and be transformed into one.

Science Fiction is alright in the game but pusdo-science isn't? Why can't they call the virus that.
Why can't the name it after a scientist? Give me something other then. Thats not how they do it in real life crap. Because thats all it is crap. You can make the same argument for why ANYTHING in the game needs to be changed.

Its a game, and for people who don't give dam how they name virus in real life. Giving all the mutation virus the same name is good for everyone except of course for you.

You say that the disease replicates in dead tissue THIS IS FALSE. There is no death involved, vampires aren't undead remember. And Essence 0 is not instant death, but coma and death over the course of several days. (possibly months if hooked up to medical equipment)

HMHVV is not named after how the virus replicates. But what it does. ALL HMHVV strains have one thing in common. They can cause massive physical changes to the subject, supernatural abilities emerge. And in almost all cases, (ghouls being only exception I'm aware of). Essence drain.

The last quality is a diminished mental capacity and a reverting to a more animalistic state in some cases. (not a vampires and ghouls become monsters but some do)

Now the virus that can create ghouls has ALL the basic qualities of those other virus save one. Essence drain.

Is it so unreasonable to classify a magical virus that may magically replicate after the effects instead.
FrankTrollman
QUOTE

Hansen disease is accept name for leprosy. They renamed the disease after him.


Disease names =/= Virus names.

QUOTE
You say that the disease replicates in dead tissue THIS IS FALSE.


Actually, Vampires really are created from dead bodies.

QUOTE (SR4 @ p. 288, Essence Drain)
If a characterís Essence is drained to 0, the character dies.


QUOTE (SR4 @ p. 289, Infection)
Th e Infection power allows a critter with Essence Drain to infect any suitable creature it has drained to 0 Essence with the strain of the HMHVV virus it is carrying.


There's no exception there. A critter drained to 0 Essence dies. Period. End of story, you're dead. Then the Infection Power may cause a vampire to be created, but it at no time has any rule which prevents the victim from becoming dead.


And yes, it is a newly created vampire, as evidenced by the statement:

QUOTE (SR4 @ p. 289, Infection)
Within 24 hours the newly created critter revives at 1 Essence and must immediately drain Essence from another being.


Not the "still living critter that has been transformed into a vampire", no! It's a whole new critter that has been created. You're dead, there's a newly created critter there that happens to have been made out of your body: like Swamp Thing, or the vampires in Buffy. But nothing at all like the vampires in Blade or Ultraviolet, which are biologically changed living creatures: Shadowrun vampires actually die while they are humans and the dead body is used as raw materials to create an Essence-draining monster.

That is distinctly different from the experience of Ghouls.

-Frank
knasser
QUOTE (Jack Kain)

Why can't the name it after a scientist? Give me something other then. Thats not how they do it in real life crap.


We all have areas of expertise and some things that damage disbelief for one person wont be the same for someone else. If you've ever adjusted anything in Shadowrun in your own area of expertise, such as computers, history or whatever, then you know exactly where Frank is coming from. I don't know much about virus taxonomy and this would have passed me by entirely, but I appreciate any effort to increase the realism of the setting. Having elves and dragons running around doesn't mean realism isn't important. It makes it far more important than it ever was before.
ShadowDragon8685
Yes, but there's a point where "Realism" gives way to "this won't be any fucking fun".

For example, any corp with a little cash to blow could easily just hike their security budget up a little bit past "insurance purposes" to actually "Impossible to get in and out without having been seen and traced by the security", but nobody does that because it would be a boring fucking game.

And nobody (except Frank) wants Vampirism Viridae 1-5, we want Kreiger Strain HMMHV.
Marmot
If Frank's rant on viral taxonomy causes you to change the way you run your SR game, you deserve your HMHVV. In the face. Right now.

Seriously, in no way is he saying 'do it my way now'. Sure, it's enlightening that he told us this. Now if we want it, swank. If we don't it's all 'cool Frank, thanks for the heads-up'.

Now then, back to the original subject. I'd definitely advocate ghoul hunting on the same level that I advocate my players to take up, say, organ legging. I won't stop them, but then again it's them who deal with the consequences of their activities. There's always going to be a need for killing in SR, so someone will pay for dead ghouls. Adjust the price roughly using, oh, 500 nuyen baseline per head for male. Plus 250 female, if you want to do the whole 'deer hunter' feel and inject the feel for the players that maybe what they're doing is deprived.

Would there be actual, organized 'control hunts' for ghouls? Possibly, but this would be a regional issue - you'd see support for hunts to come more from private and corporate interests as opposed to governmental and strictly on a localized scale with strict parameters. A ghoul hunt would always be a means to an end; be it to clear em out of an area to be developed, gain political cred amongst the normals, or what have you.

And the part B of the OP has been answered with rules already. Cool.

By the way, thanks for the naming heads-up, Frank.
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