Well flechettes are supposed to be ineffective against armor.

But I believe there are some misunderstandings with the spread rules.

Narrow the standard spread +2 DV +2 AP.
under new ammo rules becomes
+2 DV +5 AP.

Medium
Then becomes +0 DV, +7 AP. (of course you may hit two targets)
Plus they are at -2 to there defense roll.

And finally wide becomes -2 DV, +9 AP not 15 where are you getting that?
Plus they are at -4 to there defense roll.

So really it still works fine but if they happen to be wearing armor you are far more likely to deal only stun. Do people really expect

Honestly, anyone who decided that the updated rules for flechette don't include weapons that specifically mention that their DVs and APs have been modified for flechette ammo would drive me absolutely batshit in a game. I mean, the authors of the book are the same people who wrote the FAQ, right? And in the hacking section of the FAQ, there is the same question twice, with two slightly differently worded answers(the one about agents and program load) which is proof that the writers CAN make mistakes, right?

Unless you're going to take the stance that the info in the official publications is the absolute Word of God, including blatant contradictions, then I don't see how the whole, "Sliverguns are special" and associated arguments are valid. And if someone does believe that(not just arguing that POV because they're playing devils advocate, but really believes that) then I would seriously doubt their sanity.

To me, the spirit of the RAW is far more important than the literal letter of the RAW. I understand this may fall somewhat under the domain of "House Rules," merely because errors in the RAW(Not that I think there are too many of them) can be "fixed" in different ways. However, the attitude that there are never any errors in the RAW is fallacious, as there obviously ARE at the very LEAST in the case of the aforementioned FAQ section.

Basically, my opinion on the matter is that everything must be taken with a little common sense. If they say flechette ammo is changed, then all weapons that already have the flechette damage code factored in must change as well. That they didn't in the official erratta is what we call a mistake. They happen. But arguing that certain weapons are effing magic is not a rational counter to the suggestion that we as players change the DVs and APs to coincide with the new values for flechette.

Amen, brother. Let's start the League Of Actually Using Your Noggin In Gaming.

Actually, that might be too long. How about something snappier? I like "Gamers for Common Sense!"

But is your common sense is as common as my common sense? Using you noggin will tell you not to overthink and use the rules as is. If the weapons have errata, the writers will tell you.

The spirit of RAW is the letter of RAW, because RAW is Rules As Written, not Rules As Intended. Just because the ammo has changed, doesn't mean that the writers wanted the weapons that already have the ammo to change as well.

And the letter of the RAW is the absolute holy writ as far as I am concern. It doesn't matter if there are errors in the RAW, if you just play it that way, then that's the way the game world works! If flechette ammo worked the way it was errataed, but the sliverguns and shotguns had their present damage codes, we wouldn't have this discussion.

Toturi is so wrong my head hurts. But since he is also totaly right, me head hurts even more .

Touri so what you are in fact saying is that their changing of Flechette ammo has actually changed the weapon itself.

I don't have a book infront of me so values might not be exact but the concept applies.

Slivergun 7P(f) +2 (Rulebook Stats with Original Ammo)
If this gun was to fire normal ammo it would be
5P +0

Now because the ammo has changed this gun would now suddenly have stats of
5P -3

Shadowrun uses univsersal ammo concept, therefore Flechette ammo is the same for any weapon, its not magical transformed because its put into a Slivergun. Hell if that was the case I'd find a way to reverse engineer a slivergun to fire normal ammo toss in some APDS or EX-EX and target can kiss 75-90% of their defence dicepool bye bye.

With some experience in debating with toturi on matters canon... I'm pretty sure toturi is saying that no matter what the rules say, that's exactly, word-by-word, using, if at all possible, zero logical interpretation, how he'll run it. Even if rules as written are completely inconsistent or indeed bugfuck insane, he's not going to think about the context in which they are written, bother with questions of intent, and certainly not consider Occam's Razor -- he will forever and always only go with the literal wording of the latest version of the rulebooks. He isn't saying that the weapon changed so that the damage code with its flechette ammo wouldn't -- he simply isn't bothered by what we perceive as the logical paradox here.

And more power to him. He is no more forced to play like we do than we are forced to play like him.

For the rest of us, the intent of the errata does indeed seem quite clear, and preserving the balance between the weapons would certainly require changing the modified damage codes of the shotguns and the Slivergun anyway.

Isn't it possible for;

The Original Weapon "Factored" damage codes to be correct to begin with.
The original Ammo damage modifiers to have been incorrect.

Therefore when the original Ammo damage modifiers are corrected, then there is no need to change the original weapon factored damage codes?

The one thing that is not published is the actual formula or method used to factor the weapons "factored" damage codes.

It is entirely possible the reason those specific weapons, unusual ones I will add, had pre factored damage codes is because the base weapon Power were actually different then other weapons in that class. For example the Slivergun, if it could be used without flechette, would actually not be classified as a Heavy Pistol.

I understand what Toturi is saying. He's looking at what the book says(including erratta & FAQ) and ONLY what it explicitly says. And if he wants to do things that way, it's his game. MY point is that I think that his opinion is wrong. Since both of these viewpoints are opinions however, there is nothing I can do to change his or my mind. It's not a logical debate, it's a fundamental difference in outlook.

I take the stance that because there are obvious errors in something, there may be less obvious errors somewhere else, so when things are NOT explicitly stated, but merely implied, I change small pieces of RAW in order to be what I perceive as internally consistent.

As far as I can tell, Toturi's stance is that what is written is written. I'm not sure if he's taking this stance only for the sake of arguing RAW, or if he plays his games without any house rules as well.

While this is his prerogative, like I said in my original post, if one of my players exhibited this trait, I would probably attempt to smother them if they argued with me about it, as I find it highly illogical in practice, although I can see the logic if one is taking the literal definition of RAW as exactly that, the Rules as Written. However, this would not be a helpful stance in determining how to run a game, in my opinion, it is only helpful if one wishes to argue semantics/philosophy, which I have no patience for whatsoever when I'm trying to balance a game.

Like I said, he's not gonna convince me, I'm not gonna convince him, because we are both basing our opinions off of fundamentally different assumptions. I'm looking at what I think works, and he's looking at what the book says.

Isn't the Slivergun in SR3 described as a light pistol with heavy pistol ranges and flechette ammo?

Nope. In SR3 it is explicitly described as a Heavy Pistol which only fires flechette ammunition, and the normal Damage Code modifiers for flechette ammunition are simply counted into the DC it's given on the weapon table. Otherwise it'd do 9M just like any other Heavy Pistol with the exception of the Super Warhawk.

If the book was published with the present errata of +2/+5 and no change of damage codes to the slivergun and shotgun, would you be questioning whether we should be changing the slivergun and shotgun? Or if the Fanpro took a page out of Privateerpress and put errata stickers on the flechette wordings but did not do so for the slivergun and shotguns?

I won't argue if my GM decides to change the slivergun and shotgun rules. After all, a GM ruling is a GM ruling and the RAW does allow him to house rule as he wishes. If this thread was a poll thread on opinion, then my answers would be different.

@toturi: did you ever think of the Remington or the Roomsweeper? they both are given stats for the weapon using normal ammo and flechette ammo. beside the fact, that both weapons perform even worse with flechette ammo than they should (the difference for the AP is 3, not 2 as it was for flechette before the errata), they explicitly haven given stats. do you leave those as they are? or do you change them (stats with flechette), because you know the ammo has changed?

if you leave them, there is no more to discuss. we won't come to a point on this topic.

if you change them, why dou you persist on the stats of the Slivergun? it would be excactly the same procedure.

just one last try!

Actually the slug bullet adds -1 AP. That is why the difference is 3 . So it would be exactly +2 +2(for flechette). Ssshhhh though, it is just some big coincidence. Nothing to see here, move along.

ok, i'm outa here!

so the Roomsweeper and the Remington may be changed. well, even it was not especially noted, the base damage for these weapons did not change. so why should the "base" damage for the AVS? there are the same chances of 50/50 as they are for the Roomsweeper.
if zero plus x gives you a sum of two, nobody would doubt, that x is 2. and also nobody would doubt, that the sum would be +5 if x was changed to five, would anyone?
same goes for the AVS, if similar game mechanics for ALL weapons were assumed, eh?

toturi... you are overthinking this by several degrees.

They just forgot to list the weapons as well (thinking most would realize, that the weapon codes have to change appropriately as well). Hopefully, they will correct this with the next errata update, so you can play with the more reasonable rules (IMHO, of course), too.

Bye
Thanee

Now there is an interesting point and suggestion, toturi. Is the latest printing or PDF out yet? I thought it was coming out with the next batch of books.