so shotguns still deal a +2/+2 when firing flechette rounds.
and any other gun deals +2/+5
but the slivergun has a base code damage 8P (f) / +2
damage already calculated, does the gun damage change to +5? or does it remain just like the shotguns damage code?

All the description says is that the slivers count as flechette with the damage code already factored into the gun. Since there wasn't any errata released specifically for this gun, I can only assume it stays the same. I was also wondering about this myself though. It is a valid point and seems to have been left out of the errata when it most certainly should have been included. Looking at it from a GM perspective those +2 damage code are equal to 6 dice or two successes on the attack role(if the target is hit). The +2 on the AP only increase the resistance test by 2 dice. So the character is gaining 4 dice. In the +5 AP errata they are only gaining 1 dice.

If the Ares Viper Slivergun didn't have Flechette-like ammo it would be a 6P weapon. It also has a built in sound suppressor yet is only a restricted and not forbidden gun, even though it has a sound suppressor which usually means forbidden. It also has burst fire mode which is also another plus. From an effectiveness POV it is actually more power and does more damage than a Ruger Super Warhawk when the target is hit. The dice difference between the two guns is 2 since the Ruger Super Warhawk has -2 AP which is an effective 2 dice. But, look at the drawbacks of the Ruger Super Warhawk. It is SS, 6 shots, and cannot be equipped with a silencer. The Slivergun looks like a much better choice. The only drawback to the Slivergun is that it can't be equipped with any ammo but the slivers. For stealth though, it is unmatched by any other pistol. One other thing I just remembered. Flechette and gel are resisted with impact armor, not ballistic. Which armor do you think is always lower than the other? Impact. So add 2-3 dice to the effectiveness depending on the armor of the target.

If you keep the slivers the way they are they have a head up on the other pistols. It has 1-2 effective dice pool advantage over a Ruger Super Warhawk with normal ammo. It has a 5-6 effective dice pool advantage of the 5P weapons with -1 using normal ammo. For the 5P weapons, it doesn't matter what ammo you use, it will never close the gap. For the Ruger Super Warhawk it would require gel, explosive, EX-explosive, or APDS to close the gap or be better. Remember though, the Ruger is only SS. The Slivergun is even better if you can find some way to get 2 recoil compensation for the burst fire mode. Maybe a cyberarm?

In my eyes, the Slivergun is the best heavy pistol for the job.

I believe the Silvergun might suffer range issues from using (f) ammo. It likely needs to be retooled now that EXEX has been downgraded.

After all originally EXEX was +2P +2AP
That would make the Aries Predator 7P, -3 AP Or the Rugar 8P, -4 AP.
Now its only 6P -2 AP.

The quick fix would be to make it match the Roomsweeper's flechetties
7P +2 AP. It still has the BF mode and built in sound silencer to set it apart.

Where in the erratta are you getting that shotguns still do the old damage? Flechette ammo has been changed to +2/+5, period, and weapon stats should be adjusted accordingly. So a slivergun will do 8P (f)/+5.

They have made the first round of changes, and the changes to gun stats will presumably (and logically) follow. Just like they raised the price of the Mitsubishi Nightsky, but didn't change the fact the the Face still has one, an item worth 22 build points for a character that has 9 build points allocated to resources.

sorry, but that is completly nonsense, IMHO. the ammo was changed, so the weapons should change accordingly. and it doesn't take higher degrees in mathematics to do the job.

i still don't get, wat drove the authors, when balancing the slivergun. even wit a damagecode of 8P/+5 it's broken for me. you get burst mode and a silencer and it's not forbidden. if i was a cop and would find it on a suspicious guy, he wouldn't want to move an inch! it's like running around with an assault rifle, IMHO. and cops should be acting accordingly.

Ouh, this feels so much like D&D. "The ammo was changed, but not the weapon, so the weapon does still the old damage, since it uses this ammo, but... wait, where was I going?"

I'm sad there was no gun firing only ExEx. It still would use BadAss ExEx, not like any other sucker weapon out there, right?

End of transmission.

Of course you have to change the AP from the Slivergun, too. Doh!

Bye
Thanee

I asked about this couple of days after the errata was published but never got The Official Answer. So it can be any of the possibilities just depending on your GM. Argue as much as you like.

I hope Arsenal will clear this.. whenever it will be coming. *sigh*

Greetings,

I have SR4 errata v13. is there another one? If so can someone link it?

Best
Hagarzen

Errata http://www.shadowrunrpg.com/resources/inde...ex.shtml#errata

FAQ http://www.shadowrunrpg.com/resources/faq.shtml

Bye
Thanee

Yeah. Especially since the shotgun codes are just listed for convenience, with the origional damage listed. The sliver gun just doesn't have a non-flechet damage listed. Never the less it should be altered as well.

Don't make me dig through the adventures and missions to find somewhere that they list reminder damage codes for some weapon with explosive ammo or some such and claim they get to keep that damage because it's in an official book. ( assuming they still do that in 4th ed).

But yes they should have just said all flechette weapons/ammo have an additional +3 to AP. They were trying to be clear.

I for one am startled nobody brought up foci or spirits or dikote or sex yet.




-karma

Understood everyone, I was going off of the premise that shotguns were still the same. By what djinni had said I guess I mistakenly believed it to be in the 1.5 errata. This in turn led me to the belief that the slivergun had been left out as it implies in the OP.

I think it is pretty obvious that, now that flechette has been nerfed, all weapon damages that used flechettes should be changed accordingly.

But of course, what the obvious is becomes just the most common problem with interaction between subjective pseudo rational sentient entities.

Cheers,

Max

Really? Ever considered the possibility that the people-up-there might have changed the base weapon attributes to account for the flechettes/shot-type ammo that was already factored in, so that they didn't have to issue erratas for the weapons?

I try not to assume. If the errata doesn't say shotguns and sliverguns change damage and penetration, then they don't change.

Oh, come on...

The intent of the ruling was to balance flechettes. Flechettes are flechettes, balance is balance and we all know the Slivergun is damn-well in need of a nerf and has been for years and years.

To pretend otherwise is the worst kind of RAW-mongering. It's unbeliebalbly petty rules-lawyering that blatantly goes against the intent of a ruling.

Narmio:
This is the RAW.
Slivergun:
It fires metal slivers that count as flechette ammunition (already factored in to the Damage Code).
Shotgun:
It fires flechette ammuniton only (already included in the weapon stats).

Looking at the RAW the guns use flechette ammo for the damage codes. Since the errata says impact armor +5 it would then mean the damage codes of the guns now reflect the changes. This is the RAW. There is no RAW-mongering or "petty rules-lawyering" going on here. It is a misreading or failure to accept the new RAW per the 1.5 errata. The operative words here are "already factored/included in the weapon stats/Damage code. Meaning it is pulling directly from the damage code of flechette ammo and not anywhere else. So if the source of information where the guns were pulling information from was changed, that modified information would then be implemented into the weapon stats/Damage Code of the gun.

This isn't all directly towards you Narmio mostly everyone in general. My point to you is that it is the RAW. Your post seems to imply the opposite.

Also one last thing to mention here. Medium spread is now +0 DV, +7 AP. Wide spread is now -2 DV, +9 AP. Now this is something that should have really been put in their. Again, the reason we know this is because...
"Use the shotgun’s standard flechette-modified (+2 DV, +2 AP) Damage Code."
This was changed in the 1.5 errata so it would now be +2 DV, +5 AP. Because this is now the "standard flechette-modified Damage Code". We then just apply the differences between the old Damage Codes which is -2 DV, +2 AP for medium spread and -4 DV, +4 AP for wide spread. As others have pointed out and others have proved by their confusion, this really should have been mentioned in the 1.5 errata. Or a blanket statement like any mechanic or firearm that used the original "standard flechette-modified Damage Code" is modified to the new Damage Code for flechette.

Of course the spread rules are terrible and count largely against the player to use anything but narrow spread. They are rather useless and should have been included in the errata as to not be so heinously egregious. No one in their right mind would give themselves an effective 12 dice deficit for wide spread or an effective 6 dice deficit for medium spread. All you get for these deficits is the ability to target more enemies at a large decrease in damage. In almost all cases this is far worse than splitting your dicepool to dual wield.

One thing I find odd about shotguns in SR4 is the ability to use a shotgun with a rifled slug barrel. This would not only allow farther ranges and accuracy for shotguns but sabot ammunition like the APDS could be used. In fact, there isn't any reason why it can't be used without the rifled slug barrel. You just would get your 50 yards or however many meters this is. Of course the rules do not allow this, but there isn't any valid reason why not considering the tech. I really hope Arsenal fixes some of these things with shotguns and incorporates different types of sabot ammunition. With sabot you can fire anything smaller than the diameter of the barrel of the shotgun or close to equal in size. In 63 years who knows how much would be developed.

/rant

Deductive reasoning

Since the slivergun has the flechette effects "factored" into the gun's damage code, why is it so hard to believe that the gun's designers didn't compensate for the ammos shortcomings with the design?

It's also possible that the flechette ammo stats are only for guns that don't already use flechette ammo.

Yes, it's clearly just my little assumption that weapons which say they fire flechettes fire flechettes which follow the flechette rules.

Your assumption that they actually fire magical dikoted candy flechettes is *clearly* equally valid.

[You have a self confessed difficulty to perceive things not directly infront of you, so I'll go ahead and let you know that was sarcasm.]

...

Look, in all seriousness we have a fundamental disagreement at the level of basic principles towards gaming here. You and I are never going to agree on this, let's just cut it out and agree to think each other idiots.

...and if any of my players are reading this, no you can't have magical dikoted candy flechettes.

Maybe if we all email info@shadowrunrpg.com.
Which is he email for the FAQ.
And ask this question they'll respond as its not just one nut but an entire group of people.

as a Slivergun would have to do an almost incredible PB-3 with standard rounds (if that was possible), i find it HIHGLY unlikely, that such a pistol exists. that would almost be like firing a heavy pistol with APDS. if things were so easy to construct, why do all the other heavy pistols suck, compared to that? the engenieers at Colt or Ares ar surely not complete morons.

THATS my point, why the Slivergun (and the Shotguns) was just overlooked in the errata. or the writers felt, that it was TOO obvious, to notice that the weapons change accordingly.

*gosh*. if you (toturi) like the Slivergun your way: keep her. everybody else will change it. *hrmpf*

However, there is a real need of a FAQ update to keep up with errata.

The mere existence of this thread is a pretty good example why.

We could be all wrong and Toturi right, just because of gaps in the information referred.

Cheers,

Max

Let me see if I´m understanding you - this thread made my head spin at first.

Some facts, first:

1) the new damage codes for flechette ammo is now +2/+5;

2) the Slivergun uses a flechette-like ammo;

3) the AM-CMDT shotgun uses an exclusive flechette ammo (since it has different damage codes from other shotgun using "regular" flechette ammo, right?);

So... there should be no changes to the weapons...

Right? Did I miss something?

There doesn't need to be an explicit errata change. The book specifically states the damage code/weapon stats are derived from the flechette stats. The flechette stats changed so then the damage code/weapon stats change. To restate this.

A's stats are derived from B. B originally was +2, +2. B has now been changed to +2, +5. Since A's stats are still derived from B, they are affected by B's new stats. The only way B would not affect A is if A's stats were no longer derived from B. This isn't the case under RAW, as can be seen from the parts of the book I quoted in my previous post. Things that are axiomatic do not need an explicit mention, though sometimes it may be preferred, but altogether unnecessary.

So, you are saying ammo functions differently in a shotgun and a sliver gun. So much that it is actually more effective than if a sniper rifle were to shoot it out. There is no black box. Ammo in SR4 is universal. Slivers for all intents and purposes is flechette. Shotguns shoot flechette ammo. Whether the stats are factored in from or derived from is inconsequential. It has the same exact effect on the stats of the guns. You are just using different words to describe the same thing.

You don't need weapon design rules to understand this. It is all very unnecessary. Since you are so caught up on specifics being stated, where exactly does it specifically state shotguns and sliverguns change the damage code of flechette ammo? In fact, where does it specifically state anything you are claiming in SR4? Your logic defeats itself.

This discussion is fruitless and will lead nowhere. I have already posted the SR4 rules on this and they clearly define they damage codes are factored in from the flechette ammo damage codes. Since the flechette damage codes were changed, they now have to be refactored. This results in nothing more than the effective equivalent of a misprint or typo in the book.

I'm pretty sure Sliverguns were designed slightly different, Doesn't it state that loaded with Flechette they do more damage than a normal heavy pistol with flechette would cause?

They are an exception right? I really would suggest taking this to ShadowrunRPG and requesting errata, with or without a Toturi blood sacrifice.

*sigh*

Forget what the actual rules are, everyone's just mincing words here (derived versus factored in. Hah! Sophistry!)...

Djinni, Toturi: Do you really think that's a sensible ruling? Balanced? Internally consistent?

Or do you rule those things as worthless as "What the developers obviously intended."?