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hobgoblin
it seems that some israelis have a problem being understood or something, because they have developed this:

http://www.zlango.com/

hmm, maybe i should use this when players ask if there is any signs around?
Garrowolf
great..... a language for illiterate children. Just what we need - even less of a penalty for illiteracy.
BishopMcQ
I felt the brain cells dying as they watched that.

Overall, I find the language trite and non-productive, returning thought to its most primitive forms. Hieroglyphics on the other hand as an image based language carried context...
Jack Kain
Dear god any one who uses that language is stupider then those morons who always type in net speak.
Thanee
QUOTE
zlango is speaking like a child - so it is for tele tubbies only!!


biggrin.gif

Bye
Thanee
TBRMInsanity
I can see that being a universal language of the matrix though. You could just have icons and anyone of any culture or language will be able to get the idea of the sign.

That being said it reminded me of Idiocracy.
ThreeGee
Anyone ever read Neal Stephenson's 'The Diamond Age"? The protagonist, a young girl, is able to survive in the world because, although she can't read. all technology and services are controlled through an iconic language Interesting cyberpunk world.
Brahm
QUOTE (Garrowolf @ Feb 16 2007, 12:59 AM)
great..... a language for illiterate children. Just what we need - even less of a penalty for illiteracy.

Great. Just what we need. Another person focusing on penaltising people for being different from themselves.
eidolon
If anyone ever wanted to know why I despise and ignore the fluff about illiteracy and iconic language, now you know. smile.gif
lorechaser
QUOTE (ThreeGee)
Anyone ever read Neal Stephenson's 'The Diamond Age"? The protagonist, a young girl, is able to survive in the world because, although she can't read. all technology and services are controlled through an iconic language Interesting cyberpunk world.

THAT'S IT!

I always had my view of cyberpunk, and SR, as a world where language was fundamentally irrelevant, but I didn't know the source. Diamond Age is where I developed that idea.

I think that the majority of the population in SR would be considered functionally illiterate today.
lorechaser
QUOTE (Brahm)
QUOTE (Garrowolf @ Feb 16 2007, 12:59 AM)
great..... a language for illiterate children. Just what we need - even less of a penalty for illiteracy.

Great. Just what we need. Another person focusing on penaltising people for being different from themselves.

I'm fully willing to accept being calling an elitist, when it's over something like "You should know how to read."

Brahm
QUOTE (lorechaser @ Feb 16 2007, 10:52 AM)
QUOTE (Brahm @ Feb 16 2007, 07:54 AM)
QUOTE (Garrowolf @ Feb 16 2007, 12:59 AM)
great..... a language for illiterate children. Just what we need - even less of a penalty for illiteracy.

Great. Just what we need. Another person focusing on penaltising people for being different from themselves.

I'm fully willing to accept being calling an elitist, when it's over something like "You should know how to read."

Why? Because everybody knows if you can't read and comprehend the same way as everyone else you are stupid or lazy?

Because that isn't being elistist, just ignorant.
lorechaser
QUOTE (Brahm @ Feb 16 2007, 10:07 AM)
QUOTE (lorechaser @ Feb 16 2007, 10:52 AM)
QUOTE (Brahm @ Feb 16 2007, 07:54 AM)
QUOTE (Garrowolf @ Feb 16 2007, 12:59 AM)
great..... a language for illiterate children. Just what we need - even less of a penalty for illiteracy.

Great. Just what we need. Another person focusing on penaltising people for being different from themselves.

I'm fully willing to accept being calling an elitist, when it's over something like "You should know how to read."

Why? Because everybody knows if you can't read and comprehend the same way as everyone else you are stupid or lazy?

Because that isn't being elistist, just ignorant.

My daughter has severe dyslexia. She is now in pre-AP classes in 7th grade. Her school told her that she could only read at a 3rd grade level last year. And then she tested at a 6.5 this year, when they gave her a harder test, and we worked with her.

So it's not ignorance that leads me to say that.

If you have severe mental retardation, and you physically can't read, that's a different situation. And those people are outside of any discussion, quite obviously. Iconic languages are also not developed for those people. That's not illiteracy.

If you make that argument, it's like someone saying "Everyone should know how to tie their shoes" and someone else coming back with "What, even people that have no feet? That's ignorant."
Brahm
QUOTE (lorechaser @ Feb 16 2007, 12:34 PM)
QUOTE (Brahm @ Feb 16 2007, 10:07 AM)
QUOTE (lorechaser @ Feb 16 2007, 10:52 AM)
QUOTE (Brahm @ Feb 16 2007, 07:54 AM)
QUOTE (Garrowolf @ Feb 16 2007, 12:59 AM)
great..... a language for illiterate children. Just what we need - even less of a penalty for illiteracy.

Great. Just what we need. Another person focusing on penaltising people for being different from themselves.

I'm fully willing to accept being calling an elitist, when it's over something like "You should know how to read."

Why? Because everybody knows if you can't read and comprehend the same way as everyone else you are stupid or lazy?

Because that isn't being elistist, just ignorant.

My daughter has severe dyslexia. She is now in pre-AP classes in 7th grade. Her school told her that she could only read at a 3rd grade level last year. And then she tested at a 6.5 this year, when they gave her a harder test, and we worked with her.

So it's not ignorance that leads me to say that.

Actually, yes it is.

Great, you and your daughter had the tools, and she had the inherent skills, there for her to make the leap. So WTF can't everyone do that, right? Because everyone is just like your daughter and in her position? And everyone grows up speaking the same language, right?
Brahm
Next up: Great, just what we need. Wheelchair ramps. --- EDIT: Because any non-lazy person would just get up and walk in. Or at least learn to drag themselves in.
Followed shortly by: Great, just what we need. Eye glasses. --- EDIT: Unless you are stupid you can just learn to be at the right distance too be able to see.
lorechaser
QUOTE (Brahm)
Next up: Great, just what we need. Wheelchair ramps.
Followed shortly by: Great, just what we need. Eye glasses.

WOO!

Hey, parapalegic. Your illness has just been put on the same footing as being unable to read.

Slippery slope arguments don't fly with me. Because everything is a slippery slope.

"Speed limits? What's next, requiring us only to drive on the roads they want? And then computers in our cars that only drive on government approved routes to locations we've previously filed in the Central Computer?"

You can't overcome being in a wheelchair. You can't overcome needing glasses.

And I don't put illiteracy on the same level as either of those.

Sure, societal factors apply. Books are available for less than a quarter at any number of yardsales. Often, you can get a box of 20 or so for a buck.
Brahm
QUOTE
Hey, parapalegic. Your illness has just been put on the same footing as being unable to read.

Thus your ignorance.
EDIT:
QUOTE
You can't overcome being in a wheelchair.  You can't overcome needing glasses.

Sure you can. I had already EDITed in examples of overcoming it.
cristomeyers
Tell me he's talking about himself...
Brahm
QUOTE (Brahm)
QUOTE
You can't overcome being in a wheelchair.  You can't overcome needing glasses.

Sure you can. I had already EDITed in examples of overcoming it.

What I really don't get is all this braille in elevators and crap. Lazy fuckers can't have people follow them around and do their reading for them?
knasser

This is a great post. It's stated that there is a lot of illiteracy in 2070 and that icons form much of the means of communication. This is a good food for thought about how that might work.

But aside from the previous comments about how this resets language back to earlier, more primative levels (which I agree with), another flaw of this is that in addition to the loss of detail and abilty to convey more complex thought constructs, it has two greater flaws. One is that I could see no use of tense and two is that it creates implicit connotations that the composer of the message may not intend. Example: the teacher icon shows a severe looking woman with a pencil in her hair. Suppose you actually mean 'teacher' as a good thing. What about the (blasphemous) depiction of god as a beefy grey-haired bouncer in shades, or that "You little fast, honey" in their example means honey in a sarcastic manner rather than the cheerful female jar that it shows?

Bad, bad, bad. Given modern society and communications you would expect this language to evolve faster than pictograms->hieroglyphics->phonetics have in our own history, but presumably they'd just evolve in the same direction and become a phonetic alphabet again.
lorechaser
QUOTE
Great, you and your daughter had the tools, and she had the inherent skills, there for her to make the leap. So WTF can't everyone do that, right? Because everyone is just like your daughter and in her position?


The tools? You mean her parents, and books? And a public school? Yes, she did. We didn't take her to a private tutor. We didn't pay someone to come in a fix her. We figured out what she needed to be able to read, we worked on reading with her, we taught her not to memorize words and assume that the word she thought she saw was the word on the page.

QUOTE (Brahm @ Feb 16 2007, 07:54 AM)

And everyone grows up speaking the same language, right?


Ah, but that's an entirely different issue.

Moon-Hawk
Where the hell is all this coming from? Lorechaser made it explicitly clear that he was NOT talking about cases of mental retardation. He's NOT talking about physical impairment. He's not talking about some frickin pygmies in Borneo who have no concept of written language.
He's talking about the lazy sack of crap behind the McDonalds counter whose eyes work fine, whose brain works (should they choose to use it), and who has, at some point, $1 to get some books, and yet still chooses not to learn how to read.
And you come storming in trumpeting your moral highground championing the disabled, which has nothing to do with this conversation! He's talking about illiteracy due to laziness. You're talking about handicap. Everybody calm the f*!# down!
lorechaser
QUOTE (Brahm)
QUOTE (Brahm @ Feb 16 2007, 01:07 PM)
QUOTE
You can't overcome being in a wheelchair.  You can't overcome needing glasses.

Sure you can. I had already EDITed in examples of overcoming it.

What I really don't get is all this braille in elevators and crap. Lazy fuckers can't have people follow them around and do their reading for them?

See, here you're assuming things about me.

You assume that I think people who can't read are lazy.

Never did I state that. And in general, I don't think that. I do believe that there are people who cannot read because they are lazy. But I do not believe that most people can't read because of it.

My daughter was not lazy. She has a developmental problem with her reading skills. It took her a *lot* more work to overcome it.

My uncle has degenerative MS. He is now effectively quadrupalegic. He has compensated for it by having a complex machine which takes care of things for him.

You'll also note that I made a particular distinction between someone that has mental issues which prevent them from reading, and people who are illiterate.

But I'm pretty sure that you have made up your mind about what I feel, and I know that I've made up mine about you, and really, we're the only ones talking about this. So this is probably a good time to take this off forum. If you want to follow up, feel free to PM me.
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (knasser)
But aside from the previous comments about how this resets language back to earlier, more primative levels (which I agree with), another flaw of this is that in addition to the loss of detail and abilty to convey more complex thought constructs, it has two greater flaws. One is that I could see no use of tense and two is that it creates implicit connotations that the composer of the message may not intend. Example: the teacher icon shows a severe looking woman with a pencil in her hair. Suppose you actually mean 'teacher' as a good thing. What about the (blasphemous) depiction of god as a beefy grey-haired bouncer in shades, or that "You little fast, honey" in their example means honey in a sarcastic manner rather than the cheerful female jar that it shows?

True. Also, all of the examples that I saw were showing you a phrase in English, and then showing you some pictures. And you're supposed to look at it and say, "Why, I know exactly what those symbols mean! It's all so simple! Why have I been wasting my time with letters!?" Well duh of course you know what it says, they just told you in English not 5 seconds ago.
I'd like to see a phrase or two written out in that language without knowing what it says first, and just see how many creative meanings we could come up with for those pictures in that order. I'm betting there would be some pretty varied interpretation. (And I bet at least 25% of them would be sexual, regardless of the intended message)
Brahm
QUOTE (lorechaser)
QUOTE
Great, you and your daughter had the tools, and she had the inherent skills, there for her to make the leap. So WTF can't everyone do that, right? Because everyone is just like your daughter and in her position?


The tools? You mean her parents, and books? And a public school? Yes, she did. We didn't take her to a private tutor. We didn't pay someone to come in a fix her. We figured out what she needed to be able to read, we worked on reading with her, we taught her not to memorize words and assume that the word she thought she saw was the word on the page.

And that is everyones' situation, right? Figuring out what they need to read couldn't possibily involve pictures to learn language before they might read?
QUOTE
QUOTE (Brahm @ Feb 16 2007, 07:54 AM)

And everyone grows up speaking the same language, right?

Ah, but that's an entirely different issue.

No, actually it isn't. Oh sure Garrowolf is just thinking kids, but different people learn differentl. But hey, let's get back to Garrowolf shall we....
QUOTE (Garrowolf)
great..... a language for illiterate children. Just what we need - even less of a penalty for illiteracy.

... and just how clueless he is, OK?

And no, that isn't about mental retardation. It is quite literally having a different thinking model and structuring memory differently than typical. And no, kids that are diagnosed on the Autism spectrum aren't the only ones that this works for.
Brahm
QUOTE (lorechaser @ Feb 16 2007, 01:24 PM)
You assume that I think people who can't read are lazy.

I asked the quesion. All you did was talk about, you know, how you and your daughter beared down and just did it.
Pyritefoolsgold
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)
Where the hell is all this coming from? Lorechaser made it explicitly clear that he was NOT talking about cases of mental retardation. He's NOT talking about physical impairment. He's not talking about some frickin pygmies in Borneo who have no concept of written language.
He's talking about the lazy sack of crap behind the McDonalds counter whose eyes work fine, whose brain works (should they choose to use it), and who has, at some point, $1 to get some books, and yet still chooses not to learn how to read.
And you come storming in trumpeting your moral highground championing the disabled, which has nothing to do with this conversation! He's talking about illiteracy due to laziness. You're talking about handicap. Everybody calm the f*!# down!

So what about Illiteracy due to extreme poverty, something that likely afflicts many, many people in shadowrun. Illiteracy because you never had anyone to teach you, and soon found yourself in a gang, where admitting that you never learned to read would reveal a weakness you couldn't afford.

this is the reality of the shadowrun world.
hobgoblin
QUOTE (moon-hawk)
(And I bet at least 25% of them would be sexual, regardless of the intended message)


and that can happen in any other kind of language...

hell, there are sexual jokes been made out of unix commands...
Brahm
QUOTE (knasser @ Feb 16 2007, 01:18 PM)
This is a great post. It's stated that there is a lot of illiteracy in 2070 and that icons form much of the means of communication. This is a good food for thought about how that might work.

But aside from the previous comments about how this resets language back to earlier, more primative levels (which I agree with), another flaw of this is that in addition to the loss of detail and abilty to convey more complex thought constructs, it has two greater flaws. One is that I could see no use of tense and two is that it creates implicit connotations that the composer of the message may not intend. Example: the teacher icon shows a severe looking woman with a pencil in her hair. Suppose you actually mean 'teacher' as a good thing. What about the (blasphemous) depiction of god as a beefy grey-haired bouncer in shades, or that "You little fast, honey" in their example means honey in a sarcastic manner rather than the cheerful female jar that it shows?

Bad, bad, bad. Given modern society and communications you would expect this language to evolve faster than pictograms->hieroglyphics->phonetics have in our own history, but presumably they'd just evolve in the same direction and become a phonetic alphabet again.

For widespread icongraphy it wouldn't be surprising for some sort of graphical dictionaries to come into existance. Afterall that's what a dictionary is about, reduction of abiguity. Modern dictionaries came into existance after written words started becoming far more widespread and it was realized that communication was severally hampered without at least a semblance of uniform spelling and definition.

Given the Matrix the dictionary could be hooked up on the backend of every icon. Not sure about an icon? Drill down. It could also include context sensing routines to factor in the surrounding icons.
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (Pyritefoolsgold)
So what about Illiteracy due to extreme poverty, something that likely afflicts many, many people in shadowrun. Illiteracy because you never had anyone to teach you, and soon found yourself in a gang, where admitting that you never learned to read would reveal a weakness you couldn't afford.

this is the reality of the shadowrun world.

I have no idea what either of their opinions are on that matter.

I would think that in the SR world, some government or charitable organization somewhere in the world would be generous enough to have a program offering learn-to-read tutorsofts for free download. I know the person is poor, but we're in a world where, if you have pants, you have a wireless computer, I would think that any sprawl dweller who put in some time and effort could manage to get their hands on something and learn to read if they wanted to. Even without any of their buddies knowing.
Even the poorest of the poor have access to computing power that we can only dream of, and if anyone, anywhere, wants you to have some information then you can get it.
That, too, is the reality of the Shadowrun world.
Brahm
Incidentally some of my knowledge about this comes from my son having ASD and my exposure to other kids because of that. Not that my son really needed pictures for reading as he has a hyperlexia. He's not in kindergarden yet but reads several years ahead of the norm for his age. Or I should say he decodes writing several years ahead of his age. His understanding of grammar, and therefore his language comprehension, is not nearly as advanced as that. But still he does read stories on his own and gets the gist of them.
Brahm
QUOTE (Brahm @ Feb 16 2007, 01:41 PM)
QUOTE (knasser @ Feb 16 2007, 01:18 PM)
This is a great post. It's stated that there is a lot of illiteracy in 2070 and that icons form much of the means of communication. This is a good food for thought about how that might work.

But aside from the previous comments about how this resets language back to earlier, more primative levels (which I agree with), another flaw of this is that in addition to the loss of detail and abilty to convey more complex thought constructs, it has two greater flaws. One is that I could see no use of tense and two is that it creates implicit connotations that the composer of the message may not intend. Example: the teacher icon shows a severe looking woman with a pencil in her hair. Suppose you actually mean 'teacher' as a good thing. What about the (blasphemous) depiction of god as a beefy grey-haired bouncer in shades, or that "You little fast, honey" in their example means honey in a sarcastic manner rather than the cheerful female jar that it shows?

Bad, bad, bad. Given modern society and communications you would expect this language to evolve faster than pictograms->hieroglyphics->phonetics have in our own history, but presumably they'd just evolve in the same direction and become a phonetic alphabet again.

For widespread icongraphy it wouldn't be surprising for some sort of graphical dictionaries to come into existance. Afterall that's what a dictionary is about, reduction of abiguity. Modern dictionaries came into existance after written words started becoming far more widespread and it was realized that communication was severally hampered without at least a semblance of uniform spelling and definition.

Given the Matrix the dictionary could be hooked up on the backend of every icon. Not sure about an icon? Drill down. It could also include context sensing routines to factor in the surrounding icons.

Upon further reflection I think we should consider the icongraphy of this forum and how we use it to overcome some of the communication limitations of pure text. eek.gif cool.gif biggrin.gif embarrassed.gif cyber.gif lick.gif love.gif
Crakkerjakk
I dunno, I recall some basic psych classes I took a few years back talking about how there's some theories that language predicates thought, on some level. That without words to decribe certain thoughts and feelings, we have dificulty experiencing those thoughts or feelings.

While proper grammar and spelling may not be instinctual, finding ways to express thoughts is, and simplistic icons tend to become rapidly embelished. I think any "simple icon based language" that was adopted by any significant group would rapidly be embellished until it was almost unrecognizable to the creators.

Also, as an aside, Brahm, I think Lorekeeper had a point. Regardless of the emotional context of the argument, adults that want to operate in the normal world need to communicate. I understand that thats not what pissed you off, but the reality is that in order to participate in a meaningful way in the world, one must be self sufficient. Just because someone has a disability, doesn't mean if they submit a resume in icon based language instead of business english they're going to get hired. Making something easier in the short term only makes interaction with the rest of the world more difficult in the long term, in my opinion.

And also, simply because a statement doesn't apply in every imaginable scenario does not necessarily invalidate it. I can make the blanket statement that "Kicking Puppies is Bad," and it can still hold value, even if occassionally the puppy has rabies and is trying to infect you with a lethal virus, and kicking it might be a good idea. If we followed the logic that we can only make statements in situations where they are absolutely true in every circumstance, we couldn't say anything, because the truth cannot be absolutely known.
ronin3338
QUOTE (Brahm)
For widespread icongraphy it wouldn't be surprising for some sort of graphical dictionaries to come into existance. Afterall that's what a dictionary is about, reduction of abiguity. Modern dictionaries came into existance after written words started becoming far more widespread and it was realized that communication was severally hampered without at least a semblance of uniform spelling and definition.

Given the Matrix the dictionary could be hooked up on the backend of every icon. Not sure about an icon? Drill down. It could also include context sensing routines to factor in the surrounding icons.

My first thought on this was, "There will be a lot of misunderstanding"
A hungry bird for want? What's the icon for a hungry baby bird then?

I don't want to get involved in the literacy issue, but I do want to ask...

How do you define an icon with icons?
How do you get subtle concepts across with only icons?
How do you tell a joke with icons? How about double-entendre?

I'd like to see someone answer these questions using only iconography... nyahnyah.gif
DireRadiant
This is the picture for the letter "A"...
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (ronin3338)
A hungry bird for want? What's the icon for a hungry baby bird then?

I'm trying. I really am. I'm on their site trying.
It's hard to come up with a description that doesn't seem like "I want to eat a baby bird." I think "Baby bird want eat" would work. That is: a picture of an infant, a picture of a chicken (which, according to them means chicken, but I'm stretching a little), a picture of a baby bird, and a picture of pac-man eating a cherry.
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (ronin3338)
How about double-entendre?

Assume I'm telling a story about a woman who sells produce. She's a grocer, or has a fruit and vegetable stand or something. I might say that she has nice lemons. If you look at their website, the icon for lemons looks a LOT like a pair of breasts.
deek
And I think that is how you do it, to a certain extent...the context that the message is delivered with and the person delivering it...just like in current times...looking at anything, out of context, can end up meaning a million different things...so with this iconography, you can't analyze its usefulness (or unusefulness) without taking the context and message deliverer into account.
knasser
QUOTE (ronin3338)
How do you define an icon with icons?
How do you get subtle concepts across with only icons?
How do you tell a joke with icons? How about double-entendre?

First off, these aren't really icons in the sense that you'd get on a computer, in which they are self-contained representations of something such as a file type or an action. These are really pictograms intended to be part of a sequence of other pictograms to convey meaning. In that sense they are no different to words. Just clumsier due to their smaller range the inherant subtext of the artist.

So to answer your questions:

You would have to define a pictogram in terms of more pictograms just as you do words. I don't see a difference in theory. You would need many more pictograms than are available on this site, though. A dictionary never quite succeeds at the task either because few combinations of words can precisely define another. You pick up the real meaning of a word through familiarity with its usage. The difference between want and need, the connotations between club and society. Any child learning a language must develop a level of knowledge of words before a dictionary is of any use at all and the same is true for the pictograms. Reach a certain level and it becomes possible.

How do you get subtle concepts across with pictograms? Actually it can become easier than with traditional written words. In the latter, you need multiple words with slightly overlapping meanings in order to get across subtety, or else you need modifiers. The site already has some modifiers in it and the lack of multiple pictograms is not an in-built limitation, but just the current state of things. However, the pictograms actually have an advantage over words because you can alter the style of the art. Going back to that teacher I mentioned, you don't have to draw it as a severe woman with a pencil in her hair. You could draw it as a very sexy woman with a pencil in her hair. That conveys a difference in meaning far more easily than writing a word in italics or bold does. In fact it adds a whole subtext that would be impossible with only words. Draw your pictorgrams larger, or smaller for emphasis or downplaying. Make the colours brighter, muted, put it at an angle or position them atop each other. Make one flash on or off. There is a myriad of extra information that can be bolted on to a pictogram if we assume either time or more likely in the case of the Internet or Matrix or AR, with modern technology. And in electronic format, we're no longer bound to the neat, multiple lines of text that evolved with pen and ink. We can have a constant scrolling line at a speed we choose and this allows for all of our icon positioning without any untidiness.

I can even see a convenient way around the lack of being able to type words using letters (it's a limitation because you can't have a keyboard with 2,000 keys and tiny little pictures on them). The site shows the icons set into hierarchies such as actions, people, modifiers. A sort of pilot system that took you down through the submenus would actually be very quick. It would be pretty intuitive to find things, and how many layers would you have to go down to find what you want from a given root? Try:

Animal->Land->Common->Dog.

or

Transport->Land->Motorbike.

Notice in that last case you've made three keypresses (or whatever) as opposed to the nine letters in typing Motorbike.

And how do you tell a joke with pictograms? They're just word substitutes so it should be the same, though puns might be a bit limited. Double-entendre would be easily accomplished by the addition of a smaller accompanying icon underneath the primary (for example).

Or maybe the person of 2070 just possesses a more subtle insight for these things than people who've been molly-coddled with words all their life.

-K.
ornot
I have to say that the iconography as demonstrated on that site is sorely lacking. If I saw any of those strings of pictures I would be very confused, rather than grasping the language intuitively.

Also they appear to use a simplified english syntax (subject, verb, object, qualifier) so I don't see it working across language barriers as, for example, in german the verb goes at the end.

I think the main problem is that this is iconography developed out of whole cloth, wheras the kind of iconography used among the functionally illiterate in Shadowrun is likely to develop gradually by simplifying normal language, as suggested Brahm with his emoticons and plainly evident today among cellphone bearing teenagers and their use of txt-spk.

It would be interesting to see how well illiterate teens today can communicate with their peers by texting. I also recall the (maybe apocryphal) story of kids submitting homework in txt spk.
Sir_Psycho
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk @ Feb 16 2007, 01:59 PM)
QUOTE (Pyritefoolsgold @ Feb 16 2007, 01:36 PM)
So what about Illiteracy due to extreme poverty, something that likely afflicts many, many people in shadowrun. Illiteracy because you never had anyone to teach you, and soon found yourself in a gang, where admitting that you never learned to read would reveal a weakness you couldn't afford.

this is the reality of the shadowrun world.

I have no idea what either of their opinions are on that matter.

I would think that in the SR world, some government or charitable organization somewhere in the world would be generous enough to have a program offering learn-to-read tutorsofts for free download. I know the person is poor, but we're in a world where, if you have pants, you have a wireless computer, I would think that any sprawl dweller who put in some time and effort could manage to get their hands on something and learn to read if they wanted to. Even without any of their buddies knowing.
Even the poorest of the poor have access to computing power that we can only dream of, and if anyone, anywhere, wants you to have some information then you can get it.
That, too, is the reality of the Shadowrun world.

But in the Sixth world, there is a more widely known visual language, which is iconography. So your example of charitable organizations offering Reading/Writing courses over the internet is similar to today, if I know english, and use it to read the internet, I'm sure I could find somewhere to learn french off the internet, which would be great. I could read french books and look at french websites. But I don't NEED to, because I already comprehend a useful language.

In the sixth world, it is similar. Maybe people could learn to read and write (let's say English) from the matrix, but why bother, when they don't need it to use the matrix, street signs, posters and etc. This would largely be the case in the lower class areas, where getting an academic or technical education is of less importance to their lives, and where no-one would be interested in literature.


And Knasser, I think you're approaching it from the wrong angle. Iconography is not a substitute for a traditional language. You can't read a book in iconography, it wouldn't make sense, and wouldn't be interesting because of a lack of literary techniques. But iconography in the sixth world would be functional for it's limited uses, which is primarily for signs and the matrix.
hobgoblin
true, the amount of audio and visual (remember that with the bandwidth available said visual can be moving 3d models) you dont have to read much to get stuff done.

and with ASIST based VR interfaces you do physical style motions to perform commands. you dont have to read a long list of drop down commands to do something with a file. want to download it? put it in your virtual pocket just like you would do a physical object.

its like taking roadsigns to the n-th degree...

or how about the near universal "icons" for male and female toilets?

the content may not be high art like poetry, but it will be functional and get short messages across.
knasser
QUOTE (Sir_Psycho @ Feb 17 2007, 04:40 AM)
And Knasser, I think you're approaching it from the wrong angle. Iconography is not a substitute for a traditional language. You can't read a book in iconography, it wouldn't make sense, and wouldn't be interesting because of a lack of literary techniques. But iconography in the sixth world would be functional for it's limited uses, which is primarily for signs and the matrix.


No, I get that. As I said in my post, this isn't really 'iconography' in the correct sense. These are pictograms. An icon's meaning is the thing itself - e.g. it represents a type of file or an action such as "save." These are pictograms in that they acquire meaning based on their context with other pictograms. Essentially the system on this site is no different to written words, but with the conincidence that the "words" may visually resemble what they mean. With a large enough vocabulary, you could easily write a book.

If 2070 uses icons for most of its communication, then it's going to need verbs and nouns. That takes you beyond iconography and into pictograms. But with the near infinite storage capacity available in 2070 and monstrous bandwidth, I see voice messages as being the primary means of sending messages. That's ugly to me and less effective at communication than writing in several ways. But I see it being adopted by a society that has pushed back schooling to medieval levels.
Garrowolf
If we have these powerful agents and linguasofts then what is the point of this icon language. Why not just have your favorite cartoon character tell you what is written there and you can tell it what to send.

Creating another language requires learning. An agent doesn't. I think this is going to be the real reason for illiteracy.
Brahm
QUOTE (Crakkerjakk @ Feb 16 2007, 02:59 PM)
I dunno, I recall some basic psych classes I took a few years back talking about how there's some theories that language predicates thought, on some level.  That without words to decribe certain thoughts and feelings, we have dificulty experiencing those thoughts or feelings.

Sure there is definately a link between memory and language. It has been theorized that this is why we are unable to recall early childhood memories. They were created prior to a fundemantal shift in thinking. Thus they may be still stored but we have lost the way to conciously retrive and understand them. Explaining why girls typically have earlier childhood memories than boys as girls typically develop language much earlier.

EDIT: Also I've been told that talking in a certain language will put a multilingual person into a different frame of mind. I do question though how much that is the language itself and how much it is a link learned as part of the environment the particular language was learned in.

However language does not require text, or any written form for that matter. There are still today languages that exist without native written forms.

As to all this stuff about icongraphy being "less precise"? Good gravy "double entendre" is at it's heart all about ambiguous meaning. And sarcasm placed into text form is often missed or misunderstood. Further, in the context of the 6th World icons are nolonger just graphic. They can also have a sound, textual, and even emotional content. As such, with proper hardware, you can end up with an even closer to 'natural' streaming of ideas from one person to the next. Beats the crap out of plain old text, no?

Maybe initially there would be interspersing of text in the mix. But I imagine that reliance on that would drop drastically over time. As people that grew up primarily in a textual environment, like we have, died it may trail off to near nil as the textual representation became the equivalent of obsolete words. EDIT: And at that point text would become the hieroglyphics of tomorrow. An arcane, less precise form of language expresion known only by a few academics trying to figure out what us primative chimps were trying to say to each other.

Of course how exactly this would look is a matter of conjecture because of what I was talking about before. The way people think differs in very fundemantal ways. That pre-school son of mine? I can't use the old trick of spelling out words to covertly communicate to my wife in front of him because he sees the letters far better than either of us. Even faster than my wife. On the other hand I think in 3D objects. Words and spelling are very unnatural to me. I don't think of or visualize what words I'm going to say before I say them. I think of a visual of the object or concept and then try describe that as best I can.
QUOTE (Crakkerjakk)
Also, as an aside, Brahm, I think Lorekeeper had a point. Regardless of the emotional context of the argument, adults that want to operate in the normal world need to communicate. I understand that thats not what pissed you off, but the reality is that in order to participate in a meaningful way in the world, one must be self sufficient.

Hey, communication is good! What pissed me off disgusted me is the idea that it is a Bad Thing to use a more encompassing method of communication in suitable situations to facilitate self-sufficiency because to do so would no longer penalize some particular person.
Brahm
QUOTE (knasser @ Feb 17 2007, 03:19 AM)
If 2070 uses icons for most of its communication, then it's going to need verbs and nouns. That takes you beyond iconography and into pictograms. But with the near infinite storage capacity available in 2070 and monstrous bandwidth, I see voice messages as being the primary means of sending messages. That's ugly to me and less effective at communication than writing in several ways.

I'd like to see that list of several ways. Because my experience has been that in many ways email, a very textual medium, is a far poorer communication tool than voicemail. I'd go so far as to suggest the maxim of "If you don't want to communicate use email."

Now what does the text have going for it? Easy random access to different portions of the information. Now mix that audio in with a visual format allowing random access, tie in an emotional feed, some motion pictures, and you are really cooking.
QUOTE
But I see it being adopted by a society that has pushed back schooling to medieval levels.

"Pushing back to medieval levels", "not expending effort on outmoded communication mediums, thus allowing more expenditure on other intellectual persuits". Poh-ta-toe, Pah-ta-toe. ohplease.gif It is like lamenting the coming of domestic animals for beasts of burden because it pushes "society back to the time of hunter-gatherers" since people aren't pulling the plows themselves.
knasser
QUOTE (Brahm)
QUOTE (knasser @ Feb 17 2007, 03:19 AM)
That's ugly to me and less effective at communication than writing in several ways.

I'd like to see that list of several ways. Because my experience has been that in many ways email, a very textual medium, is a far poorer communication tool than voicemail.



Sure. I was explicitly comparing this to voice messages, as you quoted though, so this isn't in relation to pictograms or illustrations and as I said, it is 'ugly to me.' That said, I see pure writing as better than voice in the following ways:

  • Reading At Own Pace - I don't know about you but I can absorb information that is written much more quickly than most people will relate it to me by talking. Which do you prefer with fiction? An audio book where everything is read to you, or a written text? In general, I think the answer is where it is written. I can slow down or pause at the parts that are complex and go faster at parts that are simple or dull. This is much more difficult with audio where I can't make the recorded voice talk more quickly or talk in a more deliberate, fashion.
  • Convenience of Random Access - If I want to start somewhere other than where the author wants me to, or go back and re-visit something earlier, then this is convenient with written text. It is much harder with voice. Voice messages could have chapter headings added, I suppose. But this would be more work for the composer, would not necessarily line up with what the listener thought was a sensible break down of subjects and would be too low a granularity compared to a written passages infinite "chapter headings."
  • Convenience of skimming - With a text, I can skip through the parts that have relevance to me. We all sent emails (if we work) where the writer thinks lots of things are important, but the reader actually doesn't give a monkey's poo about 9/10ths of it. In these case, we give importance to the parts that we consider important. With voice, it is very hard to not give equal weight to everything that is said because we can't judge what is important until we've heard it. Whereas (at least for myself), with words the brain can skim through in a semi-automatic way rapidly pulling out key things we are interested in. This is distinct from the Random Access ability of writing in that it is more about rapidly judging and evaluating content, but the random access ability does facilitate the ability to skim.
  • Additional Thought in Composing / Editing - This is more of a judgement call as to whether it is true for everyone but certainly is true for me and I would expect for most. With a written text I am much more able to give thought to what I am saying and edit it to more closely reach achieve that. This is in large part due to the fact that even though I am a very good typer, I need the additional time while writing to organize my thoughts and prepare them for presentation. If I have to hit pause everytime I stop to consider my argument then my message will be quite disjointed and will not sound convincing. Not only that, but it makes it less convenient for me to go back and edit parts of what I have said / written. If I want to change a word or two, I will have to re-read the whole sentence over the previous one. Or maybe even a paragraph. And don't neglect that this means I have to keep more in mind of what I have and haven't said to keep everything nice and coherant. And recall that all the problems of random access, skimming, etc. apply just as much to me when I'm proof-reading my composition as to the listener. And the logical consequence of it being less convenient for me to edit my composition and pause for thought during composition is that I will do less of both, resulting in a less accurate, or detailed or developed message.
  • Capacity for More Complex Constructs. Written text supports many ways of representing complex structures. At the very mildest of levels, this forum post contains bullet points showing how each of the pieces of information I am giving here are all items in the "several reasons" list. Because these items are quite long, it would be harder to track that in your head if merely listenting to me read them all out. The post also contains clear delineation of what parts are quoted from you and what parts are mine. Even allowing for 2070 tech where I can quickly grab soundbites from the person I am talking to and respond to them, how would it be for a third party trying to distinguish between us. What about when there are five or six or twenty participants. And this is only one example of complex constructs (a simple complex construct if you'll forgive me). Imagine something complex - assembly instructions, business case proposals, physics textbooks.


You asked for several reasons why written text is better than voice mail. I think that's sufficient for now. There are other reasons, but they tend to be ones that have flip sides - for example, the elimination of confusing accents or distracting quality of a voice, also eliminates the advantage of those who speak very, very well and expressively. But they are still there.

QUOTE (Brahm)

QUOTE
But I see it being adopted by a society that has pushed back schooling to medieval levels.

"Pushing back to medieval levels", "not expending effort on outmoded communication mediums, thus allowing more expenditure on other intellectual persuits". Poh-ta-toe, Pah-ta-toe. ohplease.gif It is like lamenting the coming of domestic animals for beasts of burden because it pushes "society back to the time of hunter-gatherers" since people aren't pulling the plows themselves.


When I said medieval levels I was referring both to duration and focus on vocational skills. I can honestly see this in Britain today. A government push toward children's education being less about acquiring broad knowledge as it is learning skills for specific roles in life. We're seeing a much greater increase in vocational college. From the background in Shadowrun, I see 2070 having much greater focus on equipping children with some basic vocational skills. To me, this resembles medieval education where children were apprenticed early on and broad, general education was quite limited in duration. It is not like lamenting the coming of animal domestication because that freed up people to do more things. Vocational training has the opposite effect. It is a quick fix. And I don't see the greed-ridden, instant-payoff, if it doesn't have an obvious, profitable application don't do it society of 2070 doing anything other than taking the quick-fix approach.

You say that freeing up time from teaching outmoded communication methods frees people up for more intellectual pursuits. That contains the basic assumption that good, written language skills are outmoded and do not in fact form the very basis for intellectual pursuits. This assumption, I am very far from allowing.

Incidentally, I would like your response to this post in MP3 or Ogg format, please. wink.gif
Rotbart van Dainig
Why does this form of communication suck?
Try combining 'freedom of speech' with a copyrighted language...
knasser
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
Why does this form of communication suck?
Try combining 'freedom of speech' with a copyrighted language...


*Gasp!* That idea is... frightening.

"I'm sorry. You have not been licenced to use the word 'rendition'. Please cease discussing international politics, now. Thank you."
ShadowDragon8685
For that matter, how do you iconograph a word like "rendition" that won't be interpreted a thousand different ways by someone who's never seen the word before?
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