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emo samurai
I know what #2-5 are referencing.

"I Hate It Here" is referencing Transmetropolitan, the greatest comic EVAR except for maybe a bajillion other awesome ones.

"A Friend in the Shadows" references "Babylon 5," which is cemented by the "M.R. Morden" name for the creator.

"Ninja Princess" references Fatal Fury, since it's made by "M. Shiranui." The M stands for Mai, of course.

"The Pleasure Dome" references "Smash TV."

But what the hell is "Goodbye My Beloved?"

This is all on the top left corner or page 78.
Thain
Farewell, My Concubine
emo samurai
Seriously? I've seen that movie, like, 50 times at the video store. Do you recommend that I watch it?
TheUrbanMonkey
There's also a firefly reference, when talking about one of the pirate crews that operates off of Hong Kong. Actually, it's more theft than reference, as it's nearly word-for-word Zoe's description of Reavers to Simon in the pilot episode. Don't have a page reference, as my book is at home and I am not, but just look for it.
SL James
QUOTE (emo samurai)
"I Hate It Here" is referencing Transmetropolitan, the greatest comic EVAR except for maybe a bajillion other awesome ones.

I wonder if the same story was set in any other time period if DSers would be ejaculating all over themselves about it. It is a great comic, but none of the futuristic stuff wasn't already done in Futurama, and yet I don't see people flipping out over that show.
bibliophile20
QUOTE (TheUrbanMonkey)
There's also a firefly reference, when talking about one of the pirate crews that operates off of Hong Kong. Actually, it's more theft than reference, as it's nearly word-for-word Zoe's description of Reavers to Simon in the pilot episode. Don't have a page reference, as my book is at home and I am not, but just look for it.

I saw that and was deeply amused. *checks* It's on page 50, referencing the Hell Thunder pirate crew. The info is from Netcat, a technomancer.
emo samurai
QUOTE (SL James)
QUOTE (emo samurai @ Feb 17 2007, 03:12 PM)
"I Hate It Here" is referencing Transmetropolitan, the greatest comic EVAR except for maybe a bajillion other awesome ones.

I wonder if the same story was set in any other time period if DSers would be ejaculating all over themselves about it. It is a great comic, but none of the futuristic stuff wasn't already done in Futurama, and yet I don't see people flipping out over that show.

GAH GRAMMAR
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (SL James)
QUOTE (emo samurai @ Feb 17 2007, 03:12 PM)
"I Hate It Here" is referencing Transmetropolitan, the greatest comic EVAR except for maybe a bajillion other awesome ones.

I wonder if the same story was set in any other time period if DSers would be ejaculating all over themselves about it. It is a great comic, but none of the futuristic stuff wasn't already done in Futurama, and yet I don't see people flipping out over that show.

Transmetropolitan: 1997
Futurama: 1999

So unless you mean by "already done" that Futurama had gone back in time in order to tell all of Warren Ellis' jokes first...

Yeah, Futurama is a great show, but to a big extent it's "Basically just Transmet cleaned up for TV." Transmet came first and Futurama came second, which is why Transmet is groundbreaking and Futurama is just a really great show.

-Frank
SL James
Transmet is not groundbreaking.

The story has been done before, and the setting didn't exactly spring out of Ellis's forehead fully-born. There is almost nothing original about it, and yet people swear that Ellis is a genius for, uh... something. It baffles me how people can be so impressed by a comic that itself was based on (or ripped off) any number of sources. It's overrated. Amusing, but overrated.

The sad thing to me is that no one seems to give a damn about the actual story (the same thing seems to apply to GitS:SAC, although in that case too many people can't seem to wrap their heads around the intrigue even when it's rather obvious). It's "ooh, shiny toys! Cursing! Yay!" Not, as I said, it's original. But it's more important than bowel disruptors and anti-social dickery. The setting is just ridiculous, and if anything Futurama at least just showed it for being as stupid as it is. So you know what? It's just a matter of Futurama doing it better.

Which is just more sad that something that is, "basically just Transmet cleaned up for TV" is better than the oh-so-genius tome of Transmet.
FrankTrollman
Oh, I'm not saying that you have to like Transmetropolitan, or that you can't like Futurama better. I'm just saying that you can't say that Futurama "already did" anything that Transmetropolitan did - on acocunt of Transmet coming out first by several years.

-Frank
Ancient History
Oh, for the love of Ghost. SL James, you are literally speaking out of your ass. As much as that may count as a valid opinion in some circles, all you've done is make bile-filled and unsupported, inflammatory posts. Whether or not you care for Transmetropolitan personally, it is more than an Hunter S. Thompson-in-the-weird-future book with an evil-Kennedy plot. It may not be great literature, but as the primary purpose is to entertain, it doesn't have to be. Transmetropolitan was a great comic book series. Period.
ornot
I personally really like Transmetropolitan and Futurama. I don't really feel that they have a great deal in common other than exhibiting the same kind of dystopian future tropes.

I tend to feel that the setting and character development in Transmetropolitan is more advanced than in Futurama; but, honestly, how much character development can you expect in an episodic cartoon, the majority of episodes of which are expected to stand alone.

As for Transmetropolitan not springing fully-born out of Ellis' forehead, can you say that of any work of fiction? You might as well ask why SR fanbois cream over William Gibson, when he based his work on (ripped off) any number of sources.
PBTHHHHT
If you want to avoid the shiny toys provided in the GiTS shows, read the novels. They're pretty good, and are written by the same head writers of the series so there's some consistency... unlike well *koff*starwars*koff*novels*koff*
fool
QUOTE
Seriously? I've seen that movie, like, 50 times at the video store. Do you recommend that I watch it?

Farewell my concubine is an excellent and heart wrenching movie, i highly recommend it. It is also "seious" film not sci-fi or comedy, but a psychological exploration of the motives and actions of a pair of men living through the most difficult of times.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (PBTHHHHT)
If you want to avoid the shiny toys provided in the GiTS shows, read the novels.

..that doesn't really help to evade the toys, because Shirow really likes toys... and the resulting philosophies, indeed.
SL James
QUOTE (Ancient History @ Feb 18 2007, 08:20 AM)
Oh, for the love of Ghost. SL James, you are literally speaking out of your ass.

When you misuse the word "literally," you fuck it up so badly that you use it in the exact opposite meaning of the word. I'll give David Cross props for that observation, but ... Wow. From a published author no less. How impressive.

But I am sick and goddamn tired of people treating Transmet like it's the greatest thing in the world, especially people who come across it eight, nine, now coming on ten years after the fact and who suddenly think Warren Ellis is Internet Jesus because of it. As it is, every time someone mentions its originality, I think of the image that was ripped off from the Kent State massacre in issue 57 (page 11). Yes... Original. That's the word that comes to mind. Groundbreaking, my ass.
Ancient History
QUOTE (SL James @ Feb 18 2007, 11:27 PM)
QUOTE (Ancient History @ Feb 18 2007, 08:20 AM)
Oh, for the love of Ghost. SL James, you are literally speaking out of your ass.

When you misuse the word "literally," you fuck it up so badly that you use it in the exact opposite meaning of the word. I'll give David Cross props for that observation, but ... Wow. From a published author no less. How impressive.

Shit only comes out of one place, and you haven't type anything but.

QUOTE
But I am sick and goddamn tired of people treating Transmet like it's the greatest thing in the world, especially people who come across it eight, nine, now coming on ten years after the fact and who suddenly think Warren Ellis is Internet Jesus because of it. As it is, every time someone mentions its originality, I think of the image that was ripped off from the Kent State massacre in issue 57 (page 11). Yes... Original. That's the word that comes to mind. Groundbreaking, my ass.

I never said it was the greatest thing in the world, but pull your head out of your ass for a moment and consider for a moment that maybe everyone else sees merit in the text because it has some. No, most of the elements aren't original, but what is? How many fucking kids in American high schools even know about the Kent State shootings, or Hunter S. Thompson?
Xenith
Futurama is a funny show (my favorite is when Bender meets "God"), and I've not read the Transmet comic, but you know what? I'm not going to bash because I've not read it. And the whole dystopian future comedy shtick isn't original. So what? That doesn't make it any less goddamn funny.

All of you need to chill. cool.gif
Thain
Can this thread, which started out on a decent topic, just be locked now?

Warren Ellis, it would seem, shot SL James's puppy. I don't see why it matters, but this thread is dead.
Demonseed Elite
QUOTE (TheUrbanMonkey)
There's also a firefly reference, when talking about one of the pirate crews that operates off of Hong Kong. Actually, it's more theft than reference, as it's nearly word-for-word Zoe's description of Reavers to Simon in the pilot episode. Don't have a page reference, as my book is at home and I am not, but just look for it.

Well I'll be damned.

I had no idea what you were talking about so I went and grabbed the book. You're right, though that comment was stuck in by editing, it seems, since it's not in my drafts!
Butterblume
I would like to something witty and orignal now.

Sadly, I can't think of anything.

I don't know transmet. Futurama I do know, and loved it before it got boring...

One series based on comics I do love, and that's Jeremiah. First season, anyway. Like you all know, JMS produced it (John Michael Straczinsky, who made the Babylon 5 series, which every real SF fan also love nyahnyah.gif. BTW, a new Babylon 5 movie is coming up).

As someone who was forced to watch some Parts of Beverly Hill 90210 by his girlfriend, it was great to see Jason Priestly beeing blown up in Jeremiah cool.gif. It's dystopian, but nowhere near cyberpunk wink.gif.

Oh, and I'm reading the Hongkong part of RH right now (well, almost right now wink.gif), and I think Demonseed Elite did a pretty good job.
JongWK
QUOTE (fool)
QUOTE
Seriously? I've seen that movie, like, 50 times at the video store. Do you recommend that I watch it?

Farewell my concubine is an excellent and heart wrenching movie, i highly recommend it. It is also "seious" film not sci-fi or comedy, but a psychological exploration of the motives and actions of a pair of men living through the most difficult of times.


Not bad, but don't forget this guy. wink.gif


QUOTE

"The Pleasure Dome" references "Smash TV."


Eugene Jarvis, the "director" of the film, was one of the minds behind the game. The original reference is from this poem.
SL James
Just to place everything in context, we're talking about a lame reference in section which has virtually no original thought to it, no interesting aspects to the setting, and is basically 80 pages of white noise that is more useless to me than Prime Runners. So I can't exactly take anything regarding the Seattle chapter of RH seriously, let alone this specific piece of transparently lazy writing.
mfb
QUOTE (Xain)
Warren Ellis, it would seem, shot SL James's puppy.

you're are kinda missing what SL James is saying, if that's what you're getting out of it. i've spent quite a bit of time discussing Transmet with SL James, and hate isn't the vibe i got off him towards it. he's just saying--as Ellis himself said, during the arc with the revived 20th-century chick--that the tech isn't the important part of the story. people get hung up on the technology introduced in Transmet, but 99% of it is just (intentionally, on Ellis' part) retarded. guns that induce diarrhea? pheromones that fill your brain with the latest newsflashes? gene-splicing alien DNA? if that's the stuff in Transmet that stands out to a given reader, then that reader is really, really missing a hell of a lot.
JongWK
QUOTE (SL James)
Just to place everything in context, we're talking about a lame reference in section which has virtually no original thought to it, no interesting aspects to the setting, and is basically 80 pages of white noise that is more useless to me than Prime Runners. So I can't exactly take anything regarding the Seattle chapter of RH seriously, let alone this specific piece of transparently lazy writing.

“Criticism is an indirect form of self-boasting”
- Emmet Fox
cristomeyers
QUOTE (SL James)
Here's a news flash -- nothing any motherfucker on Dumpshock says matters. We're all sitting here talking about a role playing game. Your pointless drivel is no more or less important than our pointless drivel, in the great, global, scheme of things.
— Critias


Please refer anything he says to his own signature.
knasser
QUOTE (JongWK @ Feb 19 2007, 11:46 PM)
QUOTE (SL James @ Feb 19 2007, 06:54 PM)
Just to place everything in context, we're talking about a lame reference in section which has virtually no original thought to it, no interesting aspects to the setting, and is basically 80 pages of white noise that is more useless to me than Prime Runners. So I can't exactly take anything regarding the Seattle chapter of RH seriously, let alone this specific piece of transparently lazy writing.

“Criticism is an indirect form of self-boasting”
- Emmet Fox


Is that a criticism?

wink.gif

(Btw, to anyone who hasn't bought / read Runner Havens and may be influenced by SL James's comments, it's one of the best quality SR supplements yet. Is full of atmosphere and detail, like Raymond Chandler and William Gibbson all mashed together smile.gif ).
Thain
If SL James has criticism of Runner Havens, then DSF is the place to discuss it for days on end. I could be wrong, but I suspect there are other forums where comic books can be discussed ad naseuem, eh?

Yes, its a throwaway, in-jokey, no-impact, section of the book. It also takes up, maybe, a 2" x 2" corner of one page. If it was a feature in a video game, it would be an Easter Egg. It is, essentially, a joke... Which SL James doesn't find ammussing, but do I really need to hear about it for three days?

We had a nice little thread going pointing out the easter eggs in Runner Havens, and SL James and his bad additude had to get it all derailed. It annoys me... even more so, because in nearly every thread I've seen him post, he does just this very thing.

Where I come from, poster of that sort have +1 reach, natural dermal armor, and horns.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (knasser)
it's one of the best quality SR supplements yet.

Hardly. I've yet too see a supplement that beats Corporate Download in terms of usefullness and atmosphere. nyahnyah.gif
knasser
QUOTE (Thain @ Feb 20 2007, 11:28 AM)
If SL James has criticism of Runner Havens, then DSF is the place to discuss it for days on end. I could be wrong, but I suspect there are other forums where comic books can be discussed ad naseuem, eh?

Yes, its a throwaway, in-jokey, no-impact, section of the book. It also takes up, maybe, a 2" x 2" corner of one page. If it was a feature in a video game, it would be an Easter Egg. It is, essentially, a joke... Which SL James doesn't find ammussing, but do I really need to hear about it for three days?

We had a nice little thread going pointing out the easter eggs in Runner Havens, and SL James and his bad additude had to get it all derailed. It annoys me... even more so, because in nearly every thread I've seen him post, he does just this very thing.

Where I come from, poster of that sort have +1 reach, natural dermal armor, and horns.


Well actually, I've just re-read through most of the thread and though I disagree strongly with him on the subject of Runner Havens (which I consider excellent throughout), all he did was make a comment about a comic book that needn't have derailed the thread at all. The comment was in direct response to someone saying how good the comic was, so it wasn't hugely out of line in and of itself. And you know, he did get corrected on his grammar by Emo Samurai for it, so I'd say the price was paid, anyway. wink.gif

(No offense, Emo - just handing you the points in an amused fashion)

But then you get a simple correction from FrankTrollman regarding dates and then comments from another poster that he is "literally talking out of his ass" and "has typed nothing but shit." Now, I well believe that these comments are a result of previous experience with SL James' criticisms, but within this specific thread, I don't see that he really initiated any of this sort of sniping. And not allowing feuds to spill over from one thread to another is an important requirement in keeping a forum readable.

And aside from all that, if you go back to SL James's first comment, he was saying that is was a great comic! Not Shadowrun related, but seeing as the accusations levelled at him are about him being negative and "bile filled" then I think it's clear that he wasn't.

Criticism is valid and important. Even the comment on Runner Haven's is acceptable if that's what he really feels. At least it gives people another viewpoint on it. And you get immediate responses like mine that counter it. Anyone with a brain will be able to read between our points of view and be better informed than they were before.

I'm just saying that the proper response to anything you disagree with on the forum is a rational and supported response. That lets others who read see the counter argument whereas name calling and calls for censorship do not.

All my personal opinion, anyway.
knasser
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
QUOTE (knasser @ Feb 20 2007, 10:57 AM)
it's one of the best quality SR supplements yet.

Hardly. I've yet too see a supplement that beats Corporate Download in terms of usefullness and atmosphere. nyahnyah.gif


Is that better than Corporate Shadowfiles? Now that is the best Shadowrun supplement I've ever seen. I got the impression that Download was just an updated version of it.

But anyway, you have to admit that Runner Havens was pretty slick. I have very high hopes for Arsenal on account of that and Street Magic.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (knasser)
Is that better than Corporate Shadowfiles?

Sure. Because unlike CS, CD doesn't immediately turn your brain into cheese if you think a second about economics. nyahnyah.gif
NightmareX
QUOTE (SL James)
Just to place everything in context, we're talking about a lame reference in section which has virtually no original thought to it, no interesting aspects to the setting, and is basically 80 pages of white noise that is more useless to me than Prime Runners. So I can't exactly take anything regarding the Seattle chapter of RH seriously, let alone this specific piece of transparently lazy writing.

God James, whine much? I mean seriously, is there anything you like? You don't like it, don't read it, sell it if you can, or whatever. Yeah, they may not have done 2070 Seattle the way you wanted it, but I for one say be damn glad that the brand is still going. I am.

Normally I like having your opinion around as a counterpoint, but enough is enough already.
knasser
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
QUOTE (knasser)
Is that better than Corporate Shadowfiles?

Sure. Because unlike CS, CD doesn't immediately turn your brain into cheese if you think a second about economics. nyahnyah.gif


But I based my entire knowledge of how the business world works on that book! frown.gif

Oh well, who do we email to get CD added to the queue for PDF conversion?

And back on the subject of references, it's not Runner Havens, but I spotted a mention of a carboard tube wielding spirit in Street Magic. Penny Arcade, perhaps? smile.gif

-K.
Adam
QUOTE (knasser @ Feb 20 2007, 09:01 AM)
Oh well, who do we email to get CD added to the queue for PDF conversion?

Everything is in the queue. CD needs to be scanned though, so I can't directly handle it.
knasser
QUOTE (Adam)
QUOTE (knasser @ Feb 20 2007, 09:01 AM)
Oh well, who do we email to get CD added to the queue for PDF conversion?

Everything is in the queue. CD needs to be scanned though, so I can't directly handle it.


Wonderful. That's one more guaranteed sale along with Shadows Over Europe. If you don't mind me asking though, what prevents them being done from the original electronic files?
Adam
In some cases they never existed, and in some cases they no longer exist. FASA's archiving system could be called 'haphazard' -- and then their archives were shipped to WizKids, and then piecemeal to FanPro.
Bull
*wave*

You all know what this means. You all know who I'm talking to. Stop it.

Comic Book discussions can be had elsewhere, especially when they have no relavenace to Shadowrun.

Trolling and feeding the Trolls is strictly prohibited. Warnings and the like go to associated parties.

Please play nice and keep to the topic at hand, or we'll close her down.

Thanks

Bull
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (knasser)
And back on the subject of references, it's not Runner Havens, but I spotted a mention of a carboard tube wielding spirit in Street Magic. Penny Arcade, perhaps? smile.gif

-K.

Yes. That is a CTS reference.

And the "Minute Men" mentioned in the same chapter are indeed the elite troops of the Coca Cola company's private army. It's a reference to the proud tradition of disciplined militia of Georgia and also a form of branding with their Minute Maid™ line of juices and juice-flavored beverages.

-Frank
knasser
QUOTE (Adam)
In some cases they never existed, and in some cases they no longer exist. FASA's archiving system could be called 'haphazard' -- and then their archives were shipped to WizKids, and then piecemeal to FanPro.


Darn that Matrix crash. Oh well, good to know that it's still happening despite the technological trials associated with it. Thanks for the info!

-K.
Thain
QUOTE (knasser)
QUOTE (Adam @ Feb 20 2007, 04:43 PM)
In some cases they never existed, and in some cases they no longer exist. FASA's archiving system could be called 'haphazard' -- and then their archives were shipped to WizKids, and then piecemeal to FanPro.


Darn that Matrix crash. Oh well, good to know that it's still happening despite the technological trials associated with it. Thanks for the info!

-K.

Well, you can always swing by the "Used" rack at your FLGS, buy some archival copies, and break out the X-acto knife! grinbig.gif

Hmmm... if I buy it, cut it, and scan it. It is a copyright violation. If WizKids does it, do they have to sue themselves? (Or does that only to Palladium?)
Demonseed Elite
On the topic of Corporate Shadowfiles vs. Corporate Download, they are both among my favorite SR books. But they are different beasts. Corporate Download is largely a collection of profiles on the AAAs, whereas Corporate Shadowfiles is more of a primer on business in general in the Sixth World.

Both are great books, covering different things. I'd love to see a Fourth Edition book that combined both, but juggling wordcount on that could be tough.
Adam
QUOTE
Hmmm... if I buy it, cut it, and scan it. It is a copyright violation. If WizKids does it, do they have to sue themselves? (Or does that only to Palladium?)


Why would they have to sue themselves? They own the game, lock stock and barrel.

[I wonder about Palladium's lack of PDFs, too -- I can't imagine that they don't own all the rights to their material. I know they've cited piracy as a reason before, which is pretty ridiculous, but maybe their contracts never included electronic rights, but again, I can't imagine that they weren't standard Work for Hire contracts, which means they would own the material outright...]
Thain
Adam,

Kevin still lays out all of his books by hand on a vintage 1970's wax machine. No desktop publishing software, no PageMaker, no digital anything. Just a (mad) man, a pair of scissors, and a giant wax drum.

QUOTE (Bill Coffin)
Once Kevin's ready for layout, he prints out the whole mess and fires up his wax machine because he still puts these damned things together by hand. What's that? Desktop publishing software? Naw, he's faster without it! To his credit, he lays out the book in fairly decent time, but he also illustrates why all Palladium books have a simple two-column format. Kevin isn't going to cut columns to shape or deviate from formula because he might have to reflow a section of the book, and when he does, all those columns have to be standard or else none of it works. Where this really makes you want to bang your head against the tip of an artillery shell is when he lays out 80% of the book, discovers that he'd like to rename an alphabetically ordered item on page 5 and decides that it would be too much work to reflow the rest of the list. You know how every so often in a Palladium book you'll have a series of NPCs or OCCs or something and one of them is grossly out of alphabetical order? That's why. I used to think it was because Kevin couldn't read the alphabet. Now I know it's because he's truly, madly, deeply in love with putting books together in ways that even Monty Burns would decry as old-fashioned


You can read all the sordid little details here, but I swear to you, I started basing the personalities of my Mr. Johnsons (and other corporate baddies) on the obsessive-compulsive, paranoid, puddle that is Kevin Sembedia.
eidolon
He's definitely an interesting guy, regardless of whether you agree with his practices.

And as to the wax machine layout...that's awesome. And no, I'm not being sarcastic. smile.gif
Thain
He's an intense individual, with a bizare short of charisma. I've been to Palladium's office once or twice, and bumpe dinto him at a con. However, he strikes me as a borderline personality. Bill Coffin's essay has a pretty good look at the guy.

I still buy the occassional Palladium product, but I would never want to work for (or invest in) the company. It has been coasting on fumes since the mid `90s, and I don't see it surviving to see the 20th anniversary of Rifts.
Adam
QUOTE (Thain)
Kevin still lays out all of his books by hand on a vintage 1970's wax machine. No desktop publishing software, no PageMaker, no digital anything. Just a (mad) man, a pair of scissors, and a giant wax drum.

I know that -- but it really doesn't have anything to do with the legalities of them turning their books into PDFs. If Kevin somehow thinks that scanning a book that he owns the IP for is illegal ... well, he's a quirky guy, everyone knows that. smile.gif
mfb
he's the kind of quirky that i can't make fun of. everything he does is so deeply weird that you--or, at least, i--have to stop and wonder if maybe he's just aware of universal truths that the rest of world simply isn't privy to. this is only reinforced by the fact that despite the low-level what the hell inherent in everything he does, he manages to output a lot of it, and people keep buying it.
Thain
QUOTE (Adam)
QUOTE (Thain @ Feb 20 2007, 01:45 PM)
Kevin still lays out all of his books by hand on a vintage 1970's wax machine. No desktop publishing software, no PageMaker, no digital anything. Just a (mad) man, a pair of scissors, and a giant wax drum.

I know that -- but it really doesn't have anything to do with the legalities of them turning their books into PDFs. If Kevin somehow thinks that scanning a book that he owns the IP for is illegal ... well, he's a quirky guy, everyone knows that. smile.gif

Oh, I should have connected the dots better. There is no "digital" final layout, they would have to be scanned manually. (Of course, Otjers have already done this.)
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