People don't think rationaly enough... especially when they are afraid.
Do you think that all the measures taken after 9/11 were needed to prevent such things ?

Maybe some of these were, but some of them were also measures any governement dreams of but can't apply because the people wouldn't accept them. But if the population is scared enough, you can make them accept whatever you want, as long as you say it's for their security. That's what I'm saying.

(And when you have gangers shooting SMG on the highway and people killing each other three blocks away every night, you're okay with having cameras to prevent those guys from getting on your lawn)

I do not claim that any of the measures taken by my government would prevent future acts of terrorism similar to 9/11. I only claim that those steps taken would not have occurred without it.

You claim a chronic endemic of violence would bring about the same change as an acute case of terrorism. Or at least that is what you’ve claimed in this last post, that gangers’ violence would cause the same effect. In your previous post you cited cases that were indeed acute, however I’m not thinking that anyone is going to take the excuse, “Sir your neighbor may actually be 100 injuns in disguise so we have to implement surveillance on both of you to provide for each other’s safety.”

Prior to 9/11 there already existed an endemic of violence in our streets. The 80’s drug wars, the era of prohibition and the machine gun toting gangers that it created did not bring about widespread wiretapping. History indicates that no, it would not happen that way.

So I’m thinking that The Great Ghost Dance, Crash 1.0 and 2.0, and SMG toting Gangers are all insufficient to bring about the surveillance state you’re saying is inevitable. What else you got?

Well, the point of that quote was to point out the absurdity of suggesting that the Great Ghost Dance would bring about the same surveillance as 12 terrorists. You see there is probably not 100 Indians hiding inside your neighbors body waiting at any moment to burst forth gather in a huge group and begin a days long ritual to destroy the city. So therefore the Great Ghost Dance is not a valid excuse for post 9/11 style faux-vigilance.

Consider the history of SR is of hiding things like that from the people, not using it to further the aims of your surveillance society. Consider the case of the Universal Brotherhood. That their case did not cause a massive backlash and public surveillance of every humanitarian organization goes against the concept of “The Transparent Society”.

1948 would have been a beter date (george orwell). But I seem to have completely missed your point .

But since this is a game forum, I only repeat what was said before: The only reason shadowrunners aren't caught most if the time is because no one really tries.

Surveillance, forensic, magic: if the GM used all tools, the life expectancy of shadowrunners would be really short.

Demerzel,

Remember that before the Great Ghost Dance, the NAN uprising started with the SAIM terrorist launching of nuclear weapons at the Soviet Union. Also remember that in Shadowrun, the Sears Tower was destroyed by terrorists, an act far more destructive than 9/11 if you go by the Shadowrun text. Both first edition references.

Shadowrun isn't based in a post-terrorism theme, but it's not as if terrorism didn't exist in the alternate future of Shadowrun.

My .02 American Dollars.

Yes there are terrorists. Yes this results in paranoia and surveilance. However, there is no unified state to coordinate.

Each corp has their own surveilance database, and on public property the Star has to get warrants for each and every person who might have recorded some information they want to access. While processing speed and memory might be so vast that it isn't factored into the rules on an individual scale, proccessing the sheer amount of data, sifting the wheat from the chaff, is an enourmously time consuming and expensive process. It can be done, it just usually ins't cost effective.

That being said, high security zones like downtown seattle DO have the resources to pursue folks who take out a few city blocks with assault cannons and explosives. The key to getting away with crime is to not make a big fuss.

Even on a small scale, this is effective. If runners kill every guard in a wharehouse they're raiding, the corp, and the Star if it's only an A rated corp, might take interest, as murder is up there on the, "pisses off the public" rating. If instead, a buncha corp guards get knocked out by professionals with stick n shock, gel rounds, and gas grenades, the corp is likely to cover up their guards incompetence, and if they DO manage to eventually track down the runners, they may be more inclined to hire such consumate professionals, as opposed to eliminating them. A dead guard/cop is a hero. One who gets knocked out is a laughingstock.

This is part of why fanatics are dangerous. They don't put a monetary limit on vengance. Luckily, this tends to limit their available funds. Corps, however, are out to make money. Barring a serious need to cover up whatever certain runners might have found, if the runners make it hard/expensive to find them, the corp will cut their losses and invest in better security. Runners who brag to the people they ride the bus with about what a bad shadowrunner they are, however, will find themselves out of work, and after one botched run, with a corp sec team coming after them where they live.

[/rant]

SR's global social fabric wasn't spun around the threat of terrorism. however, terrifying events did occur, and i think that if some global authority presented a plan for universal surveillance, the first-world population would gladly accept it.

the reason universal surveillance doesn't exist in SR is, the guys in charge don't want it to exist. for one, as DE pointed out, they use runners too. matter of fact, they are the biggest consumer of runners on the planet. rounding up all of the shadowrunners and putting them in jail or a shallow grave would hurt all of the megacorps' bottom lines, because without such deniable assets, they wouldn't be able to keep the rest of the world in such a stranglehold. even aside from the shadowrunner issue, what do you think universal surveillance would do to trade secrets? all it would take is one bribe to someone with access to the surveillance system, and all your secret projects would be known to your competitors--giving someone money or favors is easy to do without anybody finding out (and even if the briber and bribee are caught, the damage is already done).

I don't have a terrible lot to add to what Demerzel is saying, other than to say that I agree wholeheartedly.

Knasser, regarding your take on why the SR world "must" be updated:

QUOTE (knasser)

But the thing that these have in common is that they are quite clearly demarcated from our own world.

Well technically, Janessa, by permitting Shapechange to act as a disguise spell, you remove the necessity for your character to buy the "physical mask" spell or even "alter self", thus saving yourself 5 karma.

Of course, if you are a level 6 initiate, clearly 5 karma isn't much of an obstacle.

As for the SR-verse being a universal surveillance society, I have to agree with the majority of other posters that this just isn't the case. Sure the technology exists to play Big Brother on everyone, but the infrastructure does not.

I envision corruption as pretty rife in SR, and even those good little citizens in their A+ residences have skeletons they'd prefer to keep hidden. In my world almost everyone is on drugs or BTLs to cope with the madness that is day to day life, so there is not public acceptance or pressure for universal surveillance. Instead everyone wears amoured clothes and carries a concealed gun.

JanessaVR, i think your GM is missing some of what SR is. there is no reason for most authorities to try to track you down. nobody in SR cares about solving crime for the sake of solving crime--all they care about is preventing crime, and even then, only crimes perpetrated against themselves. unless there is something concrete to be gained by chasing a specific runner down, runners won't generally be pursued by the authorities.

There is a way to defeat this type of GMing, if you don't like it. Use all your nuyen to buy a crapton of ammo and explosives, then nuke city hall. Once your GM kills you, do the exact same thing with your new characters. At some point, the GM will probably crack, and demand that you stop ruining their gameworld. Now that you have both estabished that you can take the fun outa playing shadowrun, maybe you and your GM can have a reasonable discussion about where both of you would like to see a campaign head, and what to hand wave, annd what requires planning and paranoia.

Personally, if I had to write down that I collect all my poop and burn it every day to avoid leaving ritual samples anywhere, I'd go batty. I think it's unfair to ask my players to do the same, and it becomes more of a GM vs. Players game, as opposed to Players vs. NPCs.

If you enjoy that type of game, well, guess thats your perogative. It just seems very, very, very frustrating.

I don't really think that the kind of 80's Shadowrun that existed in first ed. is (unlike steampunk) sufficiently outré to survive as its own genre. While I can agree that to a certain extent SR is losing its cyberpunk origins, playing 80's inspired cyberpunk won't mean a great deal to the majority of players today.

That being said, I have noticed that almost all of the Shadowrun Missions being released seem to involve missions sponsored by organised crime, which is a bit odd. However, a cunning GM can create corp sponsored runs and really develop the back-stabbing, politicking world of the mega-corps as they slowly crush the spirit (and the nuyen) out of a drugged up, self destructive populace. And ultimately you can GM the world as dark, gritty and anarchopunk as you want.

Wait a tic. Did you just say that you "started" with an initiation level of six? As in, at character creation? Because, as far as I'm aware, you can't initiate until after character creation.

10 points for a level of initiation seems a little low, seeing as you get all kinds of nifty perks associated with it. How does it work out to only 40BP remaining? I'm confused on the math.

Also, I used to live in Sacramento. Grew up in Elk Grove, actually. Just noticed you were from Sac.

That must be a grotesquely potent team. Starting characters in themselves can be pretty sick, provided they play smart and the GM isn't throwing Dragons at them.

If you're not min-maxing your specialty, but spreading your points around, 500BP doesn't seem like that much more.

Even so... rank 6 initiate at char gen.... brrrrr.

if you're min-maxing, and you're sinking all those points into initiation, it seems a little strange to not be buying your magic above 6, considering how much more oomph it might give your spells.

I just feel that buying all those ranks of initiation to hide your spell casting is a little pointless when you can still be discrete with magic without so many, and you're sacrificing any effectiveness your character might have outside her niche. The moment your GM sticks you somewhere with any background count, you're gimped.

Just to get back quickly on the post-terrorism topic: I understand why I didn't exactly understand what you were trying to say and the other way around.

I wasn't referring specifically to the terrorist threat. My point is that when people's values/beliefs are shaken or destroyed (be it because of a terrorist attack or anything else) they get afraid and are turning towards "strong" people (political extremes for example) and are ready to lose freedom to get a more secure society.