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JanessaVR
Ubiquitous surveillance would seem to put a huge damper on shadowrunning in general. I’m uncertain how many people here are aware of – as the best example I currently know of – the staggering level of surveillance in London. They have not only a very high level of CCTV coverage, but real-time facial and object recognition, as well as even *activity* recognition. Their newest project (green-lighted) involves tracking every car in the city all the time. Speeding, expired registration, stolen car? Forget about them – identified in seconds, nabbed in minutes. Frighteningly Orwellian to be sure, but it’s also proven terrifying *good* in operation as I understand it. Fast-forward 63 years. Try to imagine doing anything illegal *anywhere*. Get caught on camera *once* and you dare not set foot outside your home again – as soon as a camera tags your face, the cops will be on their way.

I’ve chosen to have my PC deal with this as thus: My PC is a mage, living a double life. By day she’s an industrial alchemist, mainly producing Orichalcum. (High Lifestyle, Day Job 2 – 20 hours per week. After some GM negotiations it has been ruled that this exactly covers her High Lifestyle expenses but provides no other “spending/gear cash” – in other words, it’s mainly just background fluff that won’t come into the game that often.) By nights & weekends, she has her shadow career – something she does *not* want to spill over into her real SIN life. How to keep them separate and the law away from her main life in a high surveillance society?

First, she has one very good Contact, a fixer with Connections 6, Loyalty 5 (worked into her background story). Through him, she spends the nuyen to get a Rating 6 fake id as one “Ursula Natalie Owens” (calling all Agatha Christie fans…), who has her general body build but otherwise does *not* look like her. On the way to meet the team when it’s time for a job, she ducks into someplace off the beaten path for a minute, switches off her real id for her fake id on her commlink (Rating 6 everything with Gray and Black IC to deter would-be hackers), and then locks a Shapechange spell into her Rating 6 Sustaining Focus in the form of her alter ego. Going home, this procedure is reversed to transition back to her normal life. If there are any pictures taken during a run that actually manage to get a picture of her face (she’s attired in a full chemical protection suit complete with mask when we make our runs, or at the very least some cheap face mask) then all she’s lost is the Ursula id and can pay for a new one through her fixer contact / friend.

My equipment list is running me 120 grand just for the commlink and the focus, but such are the costs of a double life. Near as I can tell, this should do it, though some fellow players have called it overkill…

Comments?
mfb
one thing that ameliorates this in SR is that, for the most part, there are no cops. that is, there's no organization that's out to arrest criminals for the sake of maintaining law and order, except inasmuch as it affect the bottom line. Lone Star isn't going to spend time pursuing every crime that falls inside their jurisdiction--they're going to make enough arrests and convictions to fill their quota and keep their contract with the city, and that's it. if a specific crime is particularly high-profile, they'll pursue it with more persistence because solving high-profile cases nets them high-profile accolades, which turns into more money. but random runner X doesn't have to worry much about getting caught on camera as he's going to the Stuffer Shack, because the likelihood of Lone Star singling him out as someone who needs arresting is low--there's a lot of criminals out there, after all. the same basically goes for the various federal law enforcement agencies. crime in SR is too much of a pandemic to spend time going after low-visibility criminals like most runners.

moreover, many runner crimes occur outside of Lone Star's jurisdiction. the Star could get information out of the corporations or nations in whose jurisdiction the crimes occur--assuming that a) the corporation/nation feels that catching the runners is important, and b) the corporation/nation feels like telling the entire world about how some gutterpunk runners beat their security.

to the corporations, especially, preventing crime is much, much more important than catching criminals. there's a virtually endless supply of criminals, after all--even if you managed to round up all the freelance shadowrunners and lock them away, you've still got all the corporate covert forces and company men. once the crime is committed, the damage is done; catching the criminals won't undo that damage, most times. time that could be spent pursuing runners would be better spend shoring up security and trying to fix the damage caused by the crime in the first place.

that said, if you're interested in that sort of society, you should look up a collection of short stories by David Drake called Lacey and his Friends. the Lacey stories are about a cop in a society that is under constant automated surveillance, and the problems inherent in catching criminals even with that surveillance.
Demerzel
I think technology is ruining Shadowrun. I think that in general taking modern technology and extrapolating it out to 2070, and attempting continuously to mold the Sixth World to match this ever-changing future view, is a bad idea. It may even be a Bad Idea™.

Here’s my wish:
I wish the cyberpunk genre, and Shadowrun as a member of that genre, could attain a status similar to steampunk. Where it is accepted that the technology base has diverged from the real world at some point. In the case of steampunk it happens in the steam age then flows on its divergent path from there. Let cyberpunk diverge in the 80’s or 90’s, give it a technology set that is what it is and stop trying to fold in modern details. There are things that exist today in a world of terrorism, nationalism, and submission to authority that is incompatible with Shadowrun in many ways. Let the neo-anarchists of the world continue on the fight against big government and the stifling forces of corporate nationhood.

Eleazar
I have a comment. Shapechange cannot be used to work the way you described. It is a spell that can only be used to turn into critters. A metahuman is not a critter. You would have to use Physical Mask to do what you are talking about. Using shapechange like that is considerably broken. Not only do you actually fully assume a new form but you get the bonus from the hits on the spellcasting test. I don't see how any GM would allow this. Is your GM emo samurai?
JanessaVR
QUOTE (Eleazar @ Feb 20 2007, 08:00 PM)
I have a comment. Shapechange cannot be used to work the way you described. It is a spell that can only be used to turn into critters. A metahuman is not a critter. You would have to use Physical Mask to do what you are talking about. Using shapechange like that is considerably broken. Not only do you actually fully assume a new form but you get the bonus from the hits on the spellcasting test. I don't see how any GM would allow this. Is your GM emo samurai?

You're confusing Critter Form for Shapechange (4e Core Rules p. 204 - they're listed together). In the Sprawl Survival Guide (p. 49), it mentions someone who used a Quickened Shapechange to change sex for a year. If it'll do *that*, it should be able to do something as comparatively trivial as change features and race for me into my shadow alter ego.
Demerzel
QUOTE (JanessaVR)
You're confusing Critter Form for Shapechange (4e Core Rules p. 204 - they're listed together).

They are listed together because they are the same spell. They operate exactly the same barring the fact that critter form is restricted to a specific type of critter when you learn the spell. It is more likely that your fluff you mention from p49 should be eratta'd to match the spell. However I'm reserving a final judgement until I get a chance to review my rulebook.
WhiskeyMac
That is true but the Physical Mask spell is more up your alley. It only changes your facial features so it goes better with your alternate ID. Same build, same everything but the face. I think it's lower drain as well.
Cynic project
In the future who is to tay that camera footage is trusted as much as it is now?50 years ago you take picture of a man holding the head of his ex-wife and you see mobs go after him..You do that now it would get shout of photo shop...
hyzmarca
QUOTE (JanessaVR @ Feb 20 2007, 08:20 PM)
QUOTE (Eleazar @ Feb 20 2007, 08:00 PM)
I have a comment. Shapechange cannot be used to work the way you described. It is a spell that can only be used to turn into critters. A metahuman is not a critter. You would have to use Physical Mask to do what you are talking about. Using shapechange like that is considerably broken. Not only do you actually fully assume a new form but you get the bonus from the hits on the spellcasting test. I don't see how any GM would allow this. Is your GM emo samurai?

You're confusing Critter Form for Shapechange (4e Core Rules p. 204 - they're listed together). In the Sprawl Survival Guide (p. 49), it mentions someone who used a Quickened Shapechange to change sex for a year. If it'll do *that*, it should be able to do something as comparatively trivial as change features and race for me into my shadow alter ego.

Eleazar isn't mistaken. The canon Shapechange spell can only transform an individual into a critter. It has always been this way. [Critter] Form is simply a limited version of Shapechange. The reason [Critter] is in brackets is that it is a variable. You are supposed to replace [Critter] with the name of the critter that the spell is limited to.

That statement in Sprawl Survival Guide is Shadowtalk. Shadowtalk is not rules text. It is in-character flavor text with emphasis on in-character. It is always colored by the perceptions of the individual characters and it is often wrong. It cannot be taken as gospel.

Androgyne may have been the recipient of a custom Manipulation spell that can change sex. It is also possible that he/she doesn't know enough about magic to tell the difference between Shapechange and Physical Mask. So long as it is not resisted, Physical Mask can have exactly the same effects as a sex-change spell (depending on how one interprets "same basic size and shape".
sunnyside
Note that spells will show up in the astral and you may have trouble with wards.

Nanopaste disguises and the like are possibly easier and harder to detect.

That's my take on operating then. If you ever get truely revealed you may want to look to surgery.
JanessaVR
Yeah, well, I find it ridiculous to say that a spell that can transform you into a different species altogether can’t do something as trivial as alter your appearance, so as far as I’m concerned – it can. And seeing as my GM isn’t this excessively picky, that shouldn’t be an issue at the gaming table, either. Moving on…
JanessaVR
QUOTE (sunnyside)
Note that spells will show up in the astral and you may have trouble with wards.

Nanopaste disguises and the like are possibly easier and harder to detect.

That's my take on operating then. If you ever get truely revealed you may want to look to surgery.

Level 6 Initiate with Flexible Signature, Masking, and Extended Masking (can cover up Magic 6 spells). Unless I'm missing something, that should take care of spotting me magically. The wards I hadn't thought of...hmmm....
Eleazar
The problem is, is that your version of the spell is considerably broken. It effectively works as an attribute upgrade spell without having to sustain 4 increase attribute spells. Under you version I could increase all of my attributes by 4 and suffer from little to no drain. Unlike increase attribute which only raises one, under yours I am increasing all the physical attributes. A spell that did this would have a much higher drain than F+2. Not only that but you are completely changing into that new form which can't be resisted like an illusion can. It also doesn't require to to go over any object threshold to beat any device sensors. Force 1 would beat everything. So with a Force 1 you only suffer one more point of drain but you are more effective than the Physical Mask spell and get a +1 to all physical attributes.

If that isn't extremely broken I don't know what is. This isn't about being "excessively picky" this is about changing a balanced spell into a broken one. Maybe if you brought up this problem to the GM and gave him the relevant posts made by myself and others it would be an issue at the gaming table. I can't believe this doesn't seem the least bit dubious to you.

Whatever, it's your game. House rules are allowed, but I advise against this one.
Xenith
Broken? No more than increase reflexes.

Seriously, you get the AVERAGE stats of said race with a bonus depending on successes, not that broken for a temporary spell. If they abuse it, its GM smackdown time (via similar abuse or just saying "NO.") Or you could even rule that it can't change anything beyond "superfluous" physical appearance if you change into a metahuman. The ultimate disguise spell with, of course, a high drain. Physical mask can be detected as an illusion, Shapechange would not.

Its a unique usage of that spell. Don't get all bent outta shape from originality. The rules don't cover everything.
Thane36425
What happened to all the cameras?

After years of abuse by the "watchers" the people finally strike back. Groups pshycially attack cameras to the cheers of the crowds while others fight politically, making the the politicians back taking them down. This is helped by the fact that many pols get caught doing things they would not like known by the cameras. Add to this the constant threat of hackers breaking in and altering data and scandals whre the watchers edited or deleted video themselves to make cases or protect offciers in brutality cases. Also, there is the expense of all those cameras, computers and humans watching it all.

Eventually I think people will get tired of it all, especially as abuses, false identifications of faces and activities. Maybe not in England though. They seem Hell bent on becoming an Orwellian nightmare.
ShadowDragon8685
Why in Frell's name would you go Shadowrunning if you have an Orichalcum bisuness? Or even work for one?

Ramp up to full-time, and you'll make literally millions.
JanessaVR
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685)
Why in Frell's name would you go Shadowrunning if you have an Orichalcum bisuness? Or even work for one?

Ramp up to full-time, and you'll make literally millions.

We're having to adjust the prices for it down a bit as a house rule - as written, I wonder why *any* mages would ever do anything else...
eidolon
QUOTE (Demerzel)
I think technology is ruining Shadowrun. I think that in general taking modern technology and extrapolating it out to 2070, and attempting continuously to mold the Sixth World to match this ever-changing future view, is a bad idea. It may even be a Bad Idea™.

Here’s my wish:
I wish the cyberpunk genre, and Shadowrun as a member of that genre, could attain a status similar to steampunk. Where it is accepted that the technology base has diverged from the real world at some point.

o/` I think I love you, so whattamI so afraid of... o/`

Seriously, I say this all the time. Oh, sure. You might have, you know, worded it well and done it without frothing at the mouth (although I only guess that because you managed to keep typing after where I've cut your post in the quote; generally I find that the froth ruins keyboards).

Not to start an edition war (and really, I'm not trying to, etc disclaimer blah), but that is one of my gripes with the stylistic difference. To me, SR4 feels like it has given up with trying to be SR and is now just "near future cyberfantasy". To me, "we've got wireless internet all over the place now" is not justification, nor reason of any kind, for the Shadowrun world to have every little tech bauble that we Real Life Earth Dwellers have.

In my reckoning, the last time the SR world was even directly based on or correlated to our world...was when the first edition book was written. This holds when I read political discussions, tech discussions, religious discussions, social discussions, etc where people are working furiously to support a premise with "well, if you compare it to such and such in real life". Sure, we can't help but use our lives as a basis for our games, but it just seems to me that we could (and IMO should) try a little harder to make sure what we come up with makes sense in the Shadowrun world, rather than ours.

/soapbox
JanessaVR
QUOTE (Eleazar)
The problem is, is that your version of the spell is considerably broken. It effectively works as an attribute upgrade spell without having to sustain 4 increase attribute spells. Under you version I could increase all of my attributes by 4 and suffer from little to no drain. Unlike increase attribute which only raises one, under yours I am increasing all the physical attributes. A spell that did this would have a much higher drain than F+2. Not only that but you are completely changing into that new form which can't be resisted like an illusion can. It also doesn't require to to go over any object threshold to beat any device sensors. Force 1 would beat everything. So with a Force 1 you only suffer one more point of drain but you are more effective than the Physical Mask spell and get a +1 to all physical attributes.

If that isn't extremely broken I don't know what is. This isn't about being "excessively picky" this is about changing a balanced spell into a broken one. Maybe if you brought up this problem to the GM and gave him the relevant posts made by myself and others it would be an issue at the gaming table. I can't believe this doesn't seem the least bit dubious to you.

Whatever, it's your game. House rules are allowed, but I advise against this one.

Not seeing a big issue - declare that if you remain your own species, you forego any attribute increases. There, happy?
Thane36425
QUOTE (eidolon)

In my reckoning, the last time the SR world was even directly based on or correlated to our world...was when the first edition book was written. This holds when I read political discussions, tech discussions, religious discussions, social discussions, etc where people are working furiously to support a premise with "well, if you compare it to such and such in real life". Sure, we can't help but use our lives as a basis for our games, but it just seems to me that we could (and IMO should) try a little harder to make sure what we come up with makes sense in the Shadowrun world, rather than ours.

/soapbox

You're right. Shadowrun is a fantasy world built on future projections inthe late 1980's. In other words, from conditions of that time in the RL, the Shadowrun timeline grew. The appearance of technology is natural of that world. We have some things they don't and they will probably have things we won't, not counting magic of course.

Trying to rewrite Shadowrun based on what is happening today is pointless. It is its own separate world that grew out of the late 80's. To SR, today's world is completely irrelevant. Besides, we would have a really unstable game if they kept completely rewriting SR history every time they put out a new edition.
Thane36425
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Feb 20 2007, 10:15 PM)
Why in Frell's name would you go Shadowrunning if you have an Orichalcum bisuness? Or even work for one?

Ramp up to full-time, and you'll make literally millions.


For the Karma.

As for the spell issue, create a new one that allows a metahuman version of the Shapechange spell. Use the same parameters and you could probably change from an Elf into a human, dwarf small orc or a troll child.
hyzmarca
There is still the issue of it being irresistible, but that can be houseruled, too.

Back to the topic at hand, the actual facial recognition software in use today is very craptastic and ineffective. The problem with extrapolating facial features from pixels is that there is a huge amount of variation in the pixels a face can create depending on things such as angle and lighting. Current facial recognition technology cannot not handle even small differences in viewing angle or lighting with any reliability. "Activity Recognition" is pure BS unless we are on the brink of being destroyed by a rouge AI. It just cannot be done without Strong AI.

However, SR does have effective facial recognition. Shadowrun also has Strong AI and it is far more common in SR4 than it was before. But total surveillance societies are very rare in Shadowrun. In situations where surveillance is a given, cameras can be hacked and disabled or fed edited video. With the wireless Matrix, this is much easier than it once was. The ability to hack cameras so easily makes it kind of pointless to actually spend money on them except in secure areas.

Also, one should remember that most Shadowrunners are SINless and operate out of socially abandoned barrens areas, where there is no police presence.
Glyph
I think that while surveilance may be ubituous, there are other factors at work. Megacorporate extraterritoriality and infighting keeps databases fragmented. The ease of editing things such as video makes them more suspect. Did someone anonymously tridmail you vid of a team of runners fleeing your facility, or did the runners themselves send you altered footage that will send you on a wild goose chase? Furthermore, with no central authority or organization, and cameras everywhere, things often get lost in the overwhelming flood of information.


On top of that, there is really little need for security. People with SR questions should consult the most authoritative source for their questions - ANIME! If you watch Najica Blitz Tactics, you will realize that an operative who has a cover identity as a high profile corporate researcher, and who usually uses non-lethal rounds, has no need whatsoever to cover her face on covert operations.
JanessaVR
QUOTE (Glyph)
If you watch Najica Blitz Tactics, you will realize that an operative who has a cover identity as a high profile corporate researcher, and who usually uses non-lethal rounds, has no need whatsoever to cover her face on covert operations.

I've seen maybe 15 minutes of Najica. As for it's SR applications - well, I'm not really sure that a panty shield counts as armor in a firefight. smile.gif
Garrowolf
I have IDs on datachips. You want to change the ID just hot swap the datachip.

Then there is a picture with the ID in the database. If you are picked up by a survellience camera then it will first ping your commlink for your SIN. Then it will check your face in the database against the picture on the camera. If there is nothing attached to the ID it moves on.

Basically it would find a bad false ID quickly but it doesn't look beyond the initial comparison without reason. You could have the same picture on 20 different IDs and the system wont realize it right off the bat.

Now if you go into a secure area and they are suspicious then they may start with a facial recognition search. They get 20 hits and the system asks for more specific information to isolate the "right" person on the database. They don't necessarily know that you don't have some other people that look like you but they are suspicious at this point. Now if you have plastic surgery listed with a few of these for repairing damage to your face then that could help explain why several look the same.

I don't know a perfect solution to this but that might help.

knasser
One loophole that hasn't been mentioned is that some people will have viable reasons to have multiple identities. Special agents for the government, witness protection, undercover police, company men. The government wants these people to be able to cheat the system. And that opens up a whole new area of exploits.

The surveillance society is still a nightmare in the UK, though. Did you know that in Europe, there are cameras being trialed that have speakers attached to them? "You there, halt! Look at the camera so we can get a proper photo. Hey, pick that gum up."

On the tangent of Shadowrun diverging from real life... I've been playing since 1st edition so the revisionism that runs through Shadowrun is very clear to me, but you have to appreciate that a lot of people these days didn't grow up in the eighties, they associate "punk" with their parents and if presented with an eighties-based future will be completely confused at not being able to hack wirelessly or google for vast swathes of information from their mobile phone. The flavour, technology and soundtrack (especially soundtrack) of Shadowrun has to be updated. I hate to break this to you all, but Bladerunner is an old movie. To a gamer of sixteen, that movie came out eight years before they were born!
Mistwalker
Who owns and maintains all these cameras?
Even today, with a fairly central authority in North America, if there is an incident on the street, the authorities often have a hard time getting the feeds (after the fact) from privately owned cameras (mostly video surveillance), with a lot of the feeds not usable due to poor sightlines and or maintenance.

Trying to track a group thru the streets with your own cameras, even after the fact, will be hard enough. If you have to go thru the courts to get all kinds of feeds, one block at a time, you may as well as give up.

With Wizzer gangs in existance, don't you think that they would use watcher spirits to take out / mess up all the cameras that may see them doing anything illegal, or even just see them???

My players are big believers in nanopaste. They use a "new" face for every run, from meeting the johnson, to doing the run, to exchanging the goods. Then that face is dumped, probably never to be used again.
Butterblume
QUOTE (mfb)
one thing that ameliorates this in SR is that, for the most part, there are no cops. that is, there's no organization that's out to arrest criminals for the sake of maintaining law and order, except inasmuch as it affect the bottom line. Lone Star isn't going to spend time pursuing every crime that falls inside their jurisdiction--they're going to make enough arrests and convictions to fill their quota and keep their contract with the city, and that's it. if a specific crime is particularly high-profile, they'll pursue it with more persistence because solving high-profile cases nets them high-profile accolades, which turns into more money. but random runner X doesn't have to worry much about getting caught on camera as he's going to the Stuffer Shack, because the likelihood of Lone Star singling him out as someone who needs arresting is low--there's a lot of criminals out there, after all. the same basically goes for the various federal law enforcement agencies. crime in SR is too much of a pandemic to spend time going after low-visibility criminals like most runners.

moreover, many runner crimes occur outside of Lone Star's jurisdiction. the Star could get information out of the corporations or nations in whose jurisdiction the crimes occur--assuming that a) the corporation/nation feels that catching the runners is important, and b) the corporation/nation feels like telling the entire world about how some gutterpunk runners beat their security.

to the corporations, especially, preventing crime is much, much more important than catching criminals. there's a virtually endless supply of criminals, after all--even if you managed to round up all the freelance shadowrunners and lock them away, you've still got all the corporate covert forces and company men. once the crime is committed, the damage is done; catching the criminals won't undo that damage, most times. time that could be spent pursuing runners would be better spend shoring up security and trying to fix the damage caused by the crime in the first place.

Well said cyber.gif.

On the other matter, I wouldn't have minded if Shadowrun had stuck to his 80s theme.
Just to say it again, wireless ist not new with SR4. SR3 had wireless decks and credsticks that transmitted data wireless when entering a store. You could connect with your pocket computer to the matrix, and display infos on your imagelink, so AR isn't new either. Wireless might be a bit exaggerated (at least for me there are lots of wired connections around), but it was around for years in the shadowrun background.
Demerzel
QUOTE (knasser)
a lot of people these days didn't grow up in the eighties, they associate "punk" with their parents and if presented with an eighties-based future will be completely confused

But you look at the popularity of Warmachine and it's associated RPG Iron Kingdoms, and that future world is perfectly acceptable. Or what about a knight in platemail with a broadsword. Tell me that's not at least a tiny bit anachronistic and I'll call you a lair.
mfb
QUOTE (Pendaric)
I wish the cyberpunk genre, and Shadowrun as a member of that genre, could attain a status similar to steampunk. Where it is accepted that the technology base has diverged from the real world at some point.

i think that really misses the 'point' of cyberpunk. cyberpunk was not created to be 80s kitsch, it was meant to explore the interaction of humanity and technology with an eye towards realism (some would say pessimism). good cyberpunk isn't just stories with people who have cyberarms, it's stories about why they have those cyberarms (in a greater sense than "my arm got shot off") and how those cyberarms affect society at large. that's very different from steampunk, where the point very much is to be Industrial Revolution kitsch.

moreover, because technology features so heavily into the genre, it tends to attract people who understand and work with that technology. a Matrix that's basically only useful to hackers, complete non-interoperability between closely parallel technologies, the inability to use technology that exists in the game in a way that makes sense in the context of modern tech--these things might be okay, if you are not a technology fetishist, but they're not okay to me.
knasser
QUOTE (Demerzel)
QUOTE (knasser @ Feb 20 2007, 11:56 PM)
a lot of people these days didn't grow up in the eighties, they associate "punk" with their parents and if presented with an eighties-based future will be completely confused

But you look at the popularity of Warmachine and it's associated RPG Iron Kingdoms, and that future world is perfectly acceptable. Or what about a knight in platemail with a broadsword. Tell me that's not at least a tiny bit anachronistic and I'll call you a lair.


But the thing that these have in common is that they are quite clearly demarcated from our own world. Historical fantasy? Especially Iron Kingdoms with its Steam Powered golems, et al, is a very different mental space to Shadowrun's world of sixty years from now. Shadowrun is not anachronistic. If it were set in the Eighties, then it would be, but it was set in a future envisioned in the Eighties. That is not the same thing at all. So to keep it current, appealing and coherent, then the vision of the future it is based on has needed to be updated.

As MFB has pointed out, where people know what they're talking about, you have to pay more attention to realism. Do you remember a thread where you and I were both in a minority trying to convince another that a four-day round trip to Mars and back was not realistic? You and I both have a fairly good knowledge of physics and to us, the idea of that in cannon absolutely shattered our suspension of disbelief. Most people living today would be in exactly the same position as us then when faced with unaltered 1st edition Shadowrun. We (and they) know more. We know the implications of the technology better and Shadowrun as originally presented can now be seen to be internally inconsistent. We've all become experts compared to the person of the Eighties.

Shadowrun had to be modernised. And I think a very good job has been done of not retroactively changing anything too, all things considered!
Demerzel
QUOTE (mfb)
good cyberpunk isn't just stories with people who have cyberarms, it's stories about why they have those cyberarms


That’s just half of it, just the cyber part. What I take exception to is translating the modern attitude of willingness to give up all freedoms to gain a measure of security from some nebulous fear of terrorism into a future super intelligence community where perfect anal recognition software coupled with chemsnifers in water closets tell the government what I had for breakfast, and they somehow care.

The punk part of cyberpunk was fighting authority. The reason Seattle had barrens that the cops wouldn’t enter wasn’t because people loved crime, but because people loved freedom. I consider it central to Shadowrun that Shadowruns are possible. So when issues like perfect surveillance come up I cringe and think, no, the neo-anarchists of my shadowrun would hack crash and burn that database so often that they would never be able to keep up with the costs of operating it in manpower and equipment.

And that’s what I mean when I say (and by the way that’s me not Pendaric) I wish cyberpunk would stay cyberpunk. I see many conversations like this where cyberpunk is becoming 1984/Brave New World/Animal Farm instead.

So, Knasser, you see I'm not looking to say that there should be no change in progression of technology, I'm just leary of allowing that change in progression of technology to mirror the change we are seeing today because it's following a different path ideologically.

The resistance to corporate superpowers that existed in the 80's is getting washed away today. The concept of privacy and freedom that drives the punk part of it is a memory as the world I live in is being populated by conformists who wish to have the government monitering their morning breakfast.
Butterblume
QUOTE (Demerzel @ Feb 21 2007, 11:27 AM)
The punk part of cyberpunk was fighting authority.

I agree with Demerzel up to this point, I believe the punkt part is not about fighting authory, but disobeying it.
knasser
QUOTE (Demerzel)
So, Knasser, you see I'm not looking to say that there should be no change in progression of technology, I'm just leary of allowing that change in progression of technology to mirror the change we are seeing today because it's following a different path ideologically.


Ah, in that case we are much closer in agreement than I thought. Hang in there pal, the revolution is coming.

-K.
Catharz Godfoot
I probably went on way too long, so I'm hiding the text. Read at your own peril smile.gif
[ Spoiler ]
mfb
QUOTE (Demerzel)
What I take exception to is translating the modern attitude of willingness to give up all freedoms to gain a measure of security from some nebulous fear of terrorism into a future super intelligence community where perfect anal recognition software coupled with chemsnifers in water closets tell the government what I had for breakfast, and they somehow care.

to an extent. the thing about SR is, there are way too many people for Them to be watching everyone. universal surveillance is made even harder by the population distribution--not only are there more people, but there are more more people in the cities, where the important things are happening. plus, as i pointed out earlier, runners commit crimes across a slew of different jurisdictions, few of which would be willing to cooperate with each other. universal surveillance that serves universal law enforcement requires universal law enforcement--and law enforcement, in SR, is anything but universal.

QUOTE (Catharz Godfoot)
CP2020 was pedantic, puerile, and narcissistic (and tongue-in-cheek) when it went to great lengths pontificating about mirror shades, pizza, rock'n'roll, rebellion, and how style was everything to "The Cyberpunk." It was also, to some extent, right. IMO Cyberpunk is all about the atmosphere.

CP2020 isn't cyberpunk. it emulates the tropes that cyberpunk started out with, and uses them to create a world that is fun to play in--one that a good GM can use to create cyberpunk. but in and of itself, CP2020 is faux cyberpunk, just like SR (any edition).

the mirrorshades, the rebellion, all that stuff--that's just icing. the real cake of cyberpunk is what it means to replace parts of humanity (from the personal to the universal) with machines.
hyzmarca
Cyberpunk is about the future psycosocial impact of the internet projected from a time when no one except for hardcore academics and badass teenage hackers knew what the internet was.
knasser
I thought the core of "Cyberpunk" was always alienation. The way that mankind is setting technology above human relationships. And the replacement of parts of people with machinery was just the supreme metaphor for this.

And Catharz Godfoot - that ain't too long. You should see some of the rest of our posts if you want to see long. No need for spoiler tags there, mate. cool.gif
Demerzel
You calling me long winded? nyahnyah.gif
knasser
QUOTE (Catharz Godfoot)
In a future where people spontaniously become faeries or "goblinize," I would think that suspension of technological disbelief the least of my worries if I was looking for a realistic setting.

I like Gibson's and Sterling's Cyberpunk a lot. I like a setting in which people remove their artificial eyes to connect their optic nerves to a giant MUSH. This does not work if you want realistic technology, but that's the ways Cyberpunk is. I think characters who go around in a post-apocalyptic future run by space Russians finding old VHS tapes for rich collectors are awesome. I like the idea of squatters scrounging rocket engines from the USSR's dead space program and 'booster jumping' in duct-taped surplus space suits to Mir.

CP2020 was pedantic, puerile, and narcissistic (and tongue-in-cheek) when it went to great lengths pontificating about mirror shades, pizza, rock'n'roll, rebellion, and how style was everything to "The Cyberpunk." It was also, to some extent, right. IMO Cyberpunk is all about the atmosphere.

Anyway, SR4 isn't cyberpunk. It has a lot of the supposed dystopic elements, but it's really become its own genre like 'D&D fantasy.' It's also a great gaming system, and I think it would be neat to see a cyberpunk setting added on in a new sourcebook (a Planescape to SR's Forgotten Realms), but I'm also happy to play it as it is.


I thought this was worth replying to separately. There are mainly two schools of thought on this, I've found. One group says (broadly) "It's a game. It doesn't have to be super accurate. It just has to be fun." The other side endlessly explains and assesses things in great quest for internal consistency. Actually, I belong to the latter.

One thing that I like in Shadowrun is the realistic feel it has to it. Yes, I'm using the word realistic to apply to a game with dragons and elves. But I think you know what I mean. There's a lot of love in the history and the detail that strives to counter-balance the fantastic. It's an 'okay - we've got magic, lets see how the world would really handle it' sort of approach. The world is all bent out of shape but it's still our world and you can see the continuity. And I think it gets away with this because of the striving not to violate our suspension of disbelief whenever possible. The inclusion of elves and magic doesn't mean we can stop worrying about technological and socialogical issues, to me. It means that we have to worry about it even more. It's the difference between 'my mage buys an SMG' and 'my mage buys a Unicorn mount.'

At least to me.
Pyritefoolsgold
I've been thinking a lot about this recently, and I don't think that shadowrun has gotten away from the essence of cyberpunk: rather, it has only added layers to it. Can you conceive what AR means to the genre? an entire population of people literally going through life with rose colored glasses, simply editing out the grime and decay around them. But the grime and decay is still there, and everything they are experiencing is fake. Reality becomes rarer and rarer.

that's why my favorite SR character is practically a Luddite.
mfb
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
Cyberpunk is about the future psycosocial impact of the internet projected from a time when no one except for hardcore academics and badass teenage hackers knew what the internet was.

it started there. Gibson didn't have a single clue about how computers work when he wrote Neuromancer--but that was okay; neither did anybody else. Pattern Recognition, his latest book, is a lot more computer-savvy (though i'd estimate he's still only at the level of proficiency of my mom). similarly, GitS:SAC requires at least a basic grasp of networking concepts to follow. neither of these are 'classic' cyberpunk, but i don't think the 'classic' part has ever been important to the genre. it's just eye candy.

in the middle of the last century, people had a generally cohesive view of what the future was going to be like--it was going to be the Jetsons, basically. nobody complains, today, that "it's not science fiction" if it lacks flying cars, humanoid robots, and pills that contain an entire healthy meal, despite the fact that the bookstores are full of sci-fi books nowadays because of the stories born from that mindset. they understand that the particular paradigm that arose in the post-war tech boom is outdated by the technology that gave it life. cyberpunk is a sub-genre of science fiction, and science fiction can't remain science fiction unless it evolves as the science itself evolves.

QUOTE (knasser)
The inclusion of elves and magic doesn't mean we can stop worrying about technological and socialogical issues, to me. It means that we have to worry about it even more.

will you marry me?
NightmareX
QUOTE (Catharz Godfoot)
Eventually you'd just stop caring, and start trying to see if you can piss on the camera as you're stumbling back from the bar.

Indeed, that is exactly the effect constant and noticed surveillance has.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (knasser)
It's the difference between 'my mage buys an SMG' and 'my mage buys a Unicorn mount.'

That difference is called 'much money'. nyahnyah.gif
Demonseed Elite
QUOTE (mfb @ Feb 21 2007, 04:21 PM)
to an extent. the thing about SR is, there are way too many people for Them to be watching everyone. universal surveillance is made even harder by the population distribution--not only are there more people, but there are more more people in the cities, where the important things are happening. plus, as i pointed out earlier, runners commit crimes across a slew of different jurisdictions, few of which would be willing to cooperate with each other. universal surveillance that serves universal law enforcement requires universal law enforcement--and law enforcement, in SR, is anything but universal.

Yeah, I'm not sure where the idea of universal surveillance in SR comes from. Perhaps the technology exists, but the social structure of Shadowrun doesn't really back any form of universal surveillance. Shadowrun lacks the central authority of a 1984-ish setting, unless you interpret that central authority to be the megacorps. But then you're forgetting that the megacorps are constantly trying to screw each other over and that they use these deniable assets you're worried about being surveilled to do it. The desires of the corporations created shadowrunning, they have no desire to stamp it out through universal surveillance.
Blade
There's technology that allows automatic monitoring. There's no need to have someone watching the camera feed but if something strange arises, someone will be automatically alerted.

This isn't used much in C and less rated areas, but it is definitely used in A+ areas: the general population of Shadowrun's 2070 is paranoid, and prefers to see cops shooting at people (who don't have regular SIN so don't exist) than taking any risk.

Think permanent post-9/11. the kind of climate of fear that's best for making people do what you want them to when you're the only stable element in their universe (which happens to be megacorps in Shadowrun).
Cheops
According to RAW Janessa's interpretation of Critter Form and Shapechange are completely INVALID. Both spells state that you cannot change into a creature with Sentience and I'm pretty sure all Metahumans have the Sentience power. If the group is willing to forgo this why bother changing into a metahuman? Body up and turn into a Dragon or a really high force spirit and tear ass across the countryside.

As for cameras, and RL London. I'm pretty sure that the downtown core of London is probably Lone Star rated A+ so that's why there's so much coverage. However, there are numerous references in SR to gangers and other miscreants destroying cameras, graffiting them so they don't work, and actual running gun battles in the Downtown Militarized Zone between gangers and Lone Star. Seattle has 3 million registered (i.e. have a SIN) people, and up to DOUBLE that in SINless. There are numerous references to Lone Star still being stretched thin even though it is a private, contracted corp.

It is possible to be a runner without getting caught on camera. SR4 and wireless AR makes it easier to hack cameras and delete your image since you don't have to hack GridGuide or Lone Star anymore--you hack the camera. Or else just make sure that you don't accept runs in AAA rated neighborhoods like Queen Anne Hill. My group hates taking runs in Downtown or A+ 'hoods because they know Star will be all over their ass if anything goes wrong and there will be the threat of go-gangs on the highways and punks in the streets.

As for the dystopic atmosphere and cyberpunk feel. SR4 has really toned this down to fit in with the current idea of stylish, sleek, and sexy dystopia. Mohawks have turned into faux-hawks and civil disobedience has been turned into sk8r boyz. However, it is really easy to bring the cyberpunk back. Just stick to the fluff in the sourcebooks and there should be more than enough there to "keep it real."
Demerzel
QUOTE (Blade)
Think permanent post-9/11. the kind of climate of fear that's best for making people do what you want them to when you're the only stable element in their universe (which happens to be megacorps in Shadowrun).

This is exactly the problem I have. Everyone want's to take this and turn it into a game changing/game breaking technology. The Sixth World developed differently. When you read the history the threat of terrorism wasn't the single driving force behind what will probably turn into a decades long occupation of a foreign state. Technology won't develop down the path we are developing down now, because in the Sixth World that was not the driving force, corporate extrateritoriality and megacorporate power is. Furthermore to say that megacorps are a satisfactory replacement for terrorists to drive the same sort of technological advancement is naive.

The Sixth World is not some massive post 9/11 world.
Blade
Looks like you didn't get me. I was just comparing to post-9/11 not stating that 9/11 happened in SR world.

But SR world had : destruction of the nation-states (NaN and that kind of things), destruction of the economy (Crash 1.0) and massive death (VITAS). That's enough to shake your common guy.
But that's not all, all the 20th century beliefs were totally destroyed by the Awakening.

So your common guy has lost everything he believed in, he lost control on his own life. He's afraid. What does he do ? He seeks something stable, something strong, that has been seen before. A police that shoot before asking questions ? Ok, as long as I can sleep soundly. A megacorp that alienates me ? Ok, as long as it keeps me safe from that mad, dangerous world.

So people seek shelter in the megacorps against that world they don't understand anymore. And if the world seems to be okay again, there's an occasional insect spirit, shedim or terrorist with magical nukes attack to bring people back to the comforting corporate enclaves.
Demerzel
QUOTE (Blade)
But SR world had : destruction of the nation-states (NaN and that kind of things), destruction of the economy (Crash 1.0) and massive death (VITAS). That's enough to shake your common guy.


But you see I’m saying that these are things that will not substitute for the threat that we look at now and say has the potential to turn us into a super surveillance state. The Native American uprising that created the NAN could not have been stopped by super surveillance, it was in fact created by a group of people in a concentration camp. Noone can argue that putting cameras on Main Street would have stopped the great ghost dance.

How do those same cameras on Main Street prevent Crash 1.0? In fact Crash 1.0 and further 2.0 would have had the opposite effect. People would ask why are we relying on such an unstable POS to link our data uplinks and surveillance networks when our lives are on the line.

Taking the post 9/11 world and overlaying its concepts of surveillance for security and blaming it on things like the Great Ghost Dance is what I’m calling naive.
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