Question that applies both hardened armor and weapon immunity. When applying damage do you use full damage value if hardened armor total is exceeded or do you only apply damage that exceeds the armor value?

Recent example withering hail of gunfire fails to affect shedim, one adept with monowhip tears them to peices.

i thought that you had to roll to see if the armor takes the hit or not and then dependant on the number of hits that you get and the power of the weapon depends on how much damage you take

Example; Sprits force is 7 its hardened armor against weapons is 14

Runner #1 uses full auto attack based at 5dv and gets 4 succes's total of 9dv not enough to get through sprits immunity.

Runner #2 used mono whip base 9dv and gets 5 succes's total of 14dv this goes through spirits hardened armor rating .....so does sprit then resist only 2 pnts that went over his immunity or whole 14? The former seems to make more sense and make things with hardened armor all but immune to small arms....makes sense to me...you?

If it gets past the armor it gets past the armor entirely. Then you roll bod + Armor to see how it is reduced (So some of the power will be reduced by the armor)

To put it another way.
I think you're asking if the armor value is directly subtracted from the Damage Value of the incoming attack. The answer is no. The DV is reduced not by the full armor value but by the hits on a body + Armor test.

Ok here's how it works, you count the base DV of the weapon, the number of successful hits.

Modified DV equals base DV of weapon + number of net hits. (AP will reduce the armor rating)


The armor resist roll is done second. So if you have a monowhip Base DV 8 with its AP of -4. It will always overcome harden armor of 12 or less.

Guess thing that got me mechanics of damage, guy gets one sucess over hardened armor value kills it outright, guy gets one sucess under armor value doesnt even scratch it just seems like large gap in damage as opposed to stepping it based on what would get past hardened armor value.

Well, getting a Modified DV of 15 against a Force 7 Shedim, means they roll 21 + The body of the occupied host (Say 3) for 24 dice. That's from 6 to 9 damage reduced, meaning not really killed outright.

Also that Shedim is rolling 14ish Dice to defend against the monowhip, so getting 5 net hits is a hell of a thing.

Double Post Delete

So assumeing you mean immunity is to be treated as "real" armor rating?

The same thing came up in our campaign when one of us was shooting his sniper rifle with EXEX rounds at a Banshee. The sniper has base 10 damage, AP -5 and the Banshee had armor 18. After a lot of digging, we learned that when comparing damage to hardened armor (or for figuring out whether you do stun or physical damage with a lethal attack against an armored foe):

Compare modified damage to modified armor.

That is, compare [base damage+hits] to [base armor value - armor penetration value].

With a modified armor of 13, he only needed 4 hits to damage the banshee. He didn't get it with every shot, but he was able to blow bits off the bashee with his rifle. A Typical damage reduction test on a banshee (body 20) is 12, so he managed to knock 2 boxes off it's 18 with a successful hit.

Dread Polack

one thing that seems to be missing in here is that it is mnodified damage. Now in the sr3 rules it was unmodified by burst fire, int he new rules, it doesn't say that. That means that the guy throwing a lead hose is going to get through most harderned armor. Of course I soculd be missing that opint in the bbb

There is a place in the Core book that says burst modifiers don't apply when comparing to armor. If someone else doesn't I'll get you a page number when I get home.

p, 143

"Note that this DV modifi er does not apply when comparing
the DV to the armor rating."

I just re-read the combat section and can't find any mention of hardened armor. What am i missing?

What are you missing? The index. p345, the Entery labeled "Hardened Armor power"

It's a critter power. SR4 p288. In previous editions vehicle armor was considered Hardened.

Thanks! I am not sure why I missed that.

I actually mix hardened armor and regular armor all the time in my games. I use the bitch format to note it.

B/I(H) Ballistic / Impact (Hardened)

(you I know there is no T)

so a combat vest could have 3/1(3). If you hit it with something with 3 or less base dv then nothing happens. Above that you would add the Hardened to the B or the I depending on the attack. So someone with a knife doing only 3 can be safely ignored. After that you roll as normal.

It's pretty simple.

I just noticed that my name was invoked. Sorry, my name-sense must be weakening because that's like a day ago.

Anyway, Hardened Armor is weird stuff. The more of it you have, the less likely you are to be injured and not killed. Indeed, at the limit of very high hardened armor ratings (say 24+) there is no purpose to be served in even owning a medkit as any weapon that can hurt you at all will kill you.

This is because the minimum DV that can hurt you increases by 1 for every point of hardened armor you possess, but against any weapon that might harm you each point of hardened armor is only worth 1 damage resistance die. So for every 3 points of hardened armor you possess, the minimum attack you care about goes up by three and the damage you actually take from such an attack goes down by only 1. If you've got a 24 point hardened armor shield you ignore the vast majority of weapon attacks (anything with a DV of 1-24). But if you actually get hit with the DV 25 weapon that might damage you, the hardened armor will only reduce that to 17 DV physical - so you're pretty much just dead right off.

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Hardened Armor and Regular Armor don't add together for their particular checks. Wearing an armored jacket does not increase the minimum DV needed to make you care if you happen to be Destro, and having hardened cyberlimbs doesn't increase the DV that an armored jacket will convert to stun. But if for some reason you have both hardened and regular armor you do add both to your damage resistance roll.

It is difficult to find armor that stacks. It is no accident that the 4th edition "Armored Jacket" has the values that the Jacket + Form Fitting Body Armor + Forearm Guards combination gave you in previous editions. But there are still pieces of equipment that grant such bonuses - Orthoskin for example.

And if you do get Armor and Hardened Armor remember that they are different totals. Armor converts Physical to Stun unless the DV exceeds the Armor value. Not the "Armor + Hardened Armor value" just the Armor. Hardened Armor negates all damage if the DV does not exceed the Hardened Armor value. Again, not the "Armor + Hardened Armor value" just the Hardened Armor.

-Frank