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Prime Mover
Nanite cutters introduced in Arc shutdown.....realize not ported over to sr4 yet but was wondering if houseruled stats could be used in narcro jet weapon or even flechette gernade. Not remembering if injection only or exactly how they worked..cant find copy of book ;(
nathanross
Read Man & Machine you inhuman Renraku sucking sadist.
fistandantilus4.0
Well they were via injection with the bumblebees. I'm not sure if DMSO works in the same way with nanites as with chemicals. If it does, you could go that route for contact type.

I'd say the grenade wouldn't work as well, because you wouldn't get enough of them in the target area. Narcojet ony if DMSO would work with it. Maybe a heavy capsule round that's designed to penetrate and disintegrate?
Mistwalker
Why narcojet with DMSO?

Narcojet is injected with a dart gun, normally, isn't?
If that is the case, then the cutters could be injected that way.

But nannite cutters is not something that I want to introduce to my universe. Too much the weapon of mass destruction, and can easily take out chars.

Need a job done, have the runners food/drinks doctored with dormant cutters. They attach to the stomach wall for X hours or until activated. Once activated, kill the char. No loose ends from the corps point of vue, for those very sensitive missions.
BishopMcQ
Something like:

Inhalation/Injection Vector
Power 6P/8P

Toxin Filters do not reduce the power of Cutters though a respirator will assist against inhalation vectors.

Cutter nanites can be programmed to activate immediately upon entry into an organic host or be delayed on a specific timer, remote command etc. External armor will not assist in resisting damage though bone lacing and similar implants will continue to give their bonus.
fistandantilus4.0
Do have a question though. Why? Isn't that a bit of expensive where a more common poison, or even a hunk of lead will do?
TheOOB
Poison works well if you just want to kill someone, but this works alot like a databomb that you don't need to implant, you can use it to "convince" someone to work for you.
FrankTrollman
It is rather pointless I do have to say. The cutters are high on "awesome" factor, but they are in no way worth anything from the standpoint of... any standpoint I'm aware of.

The one advantage that the nanite cutters have is that they are a two-part attack protocol: the nanites are injected, and then they supposedly activate given a wireless signal - thus introducing something that can be quickly introduced into a resisting victim that will in turn allow you to kill them remotely at any future date.

That being said, there are things that are way more effective than that. Hell, you could just have a bee drone that happened to be full of explosives that burrowed into a victim's spinal chord and went off as a cortex bomb later on. Or you could have capsule nanites that happened to be full of any nof a number of completely lethal catalytic neurotoxins.

There's just no possibility of any powered device - no matter how small and efficient - ever matching the cost/effectiveness ratio of plain old Botulinum Toxin (lethal dose = .07 mg), let alone something crazy exotic like enterotoxin B (lethal dose = .0014 mg).

-Frank
Crakkerjakk
It's never really that hard to do harm to another human being. We're fairly delicate creatures, when it comes down to it.
Garrowolf
I would say that this would be in the realm of psychological warfare. You allow people to thing you have this stuff. Maybe let some arc shut down footage mix with some lab footage. Then you capture someone and inject them with something that burns a bit. Then tell them that they have cutters inside of them. Maybe show them a fake readout or something. Then give them a time limit and wait for the information to come spilling out.
hyzmarca
Right. With a cortex bomb, the worst possible result is that you have your head blown off. With nanite cutters, the worst possible result is that your brain is the last thing to go. A cortex bomb powerful enough to kill reliably is a quick and painless thing and it isn't too unpleasant in abstract if one believes in an afterlife.
Nanite cutters just seem like the most horrific possible way to die. There are things more horrific, cure, but they have a much greater psychological impact than any of them.
Ravor
I don't know, personally I think you'd get the same result by slowly lowering them in a vat of acid/chemical waste that is just strong enough to slowly burn/eat them.
fistandantilus4.0
QUOTE (Prime Mover)
how they worked..cant find copy of book

ok, to actually answer your question of how they work:
QUOTE (R:ASpg81)

Even if no damage is taken, the nanochemical poison boils the victim's blood. The victim takes 6Lduring the first combat turn after the sting.8m in the second turn, 10S in the third and 12D in the fourth. The character can only resist the damage with their unaugmented body.



QUOTE
Even if no damage is taken
being in refernce to the actual sting from the bumblebee, which is assumed to hit, but being resisted by body and half impact armor.

Hope that helps
nathanross
Anyone here who actually likes to use cutters should really read the pacifist thread

Pacifism in the Shadows

No one with any humanity would actually use these on another living human, much less enjoy watching another human die from all the blood in their body boiling. Instant karma loss if you ask me.
Garrowolf
How about using a decompression tank to force nitrogen narcosis? I seem to remember clark doing that in Without Remorse by Tom Clancy. Nasty stuff and much lower tech.
Fix-it
christ, what the hell happened to just shooting people?
fistandantilus4.0
QUOTE (nathanross)
No one with any humanity would actually use these on another living human, much less enjoy watching another human die from all the blood in their body boiling. Instant karma loss if you ask me.

Not using it and not enjoying it are entirely different things. There are reasons to sue something like this. Example: assassin trying to take out a target, can't get in a firearm, but can sneak in a mini drone. But the cutters in, and there's no Resist Toxin spell gonna save 'em. That doesn't mean the person enjoys using it. Just a means to an end, just like a gun. No reason to lose kamra for it. UNless you decide before hand that your particular game is going to run a bit higher up on the moral values scale. but then... why shadowrun?
TheOOB
I agree, nanite cutters would be horribly in humaine, but come on, this is cyberpunk; check your humanity at the door.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Fix-it)
christ, what the hell happened to just shooting people?

A good murder is like a good orgasm. You have to build up to it.

Just shooting someone is like a 5-second handjob. Yeah, the mission is accomplished, but both you and your partner are going to be disappointed by it.

If you are patient and make things last just long enough, you will receive immense satisfaction and your partner will be able to enjoy the sweet release.
Ravor
Umm, nathanross, you do realize that Karma in Shadowrun isn't about being 'good' right? If anything it is about reaching goals and getting the job done. Remember that at you are a horrible human being who shoots people in the face for money who perhaps in the best of times is able to rise above not only himself but the entire world which has also decended into the very depths of the worse aspects of the meta-human soul.
Steak and Spirits
QUOTE (Ravor)
Umm, nathanross, you do realize that Karma in Shadowrun isn't about being 'good' right? If anything it is about reaching goals and getting the job done. Remember that at you are a horrible human being who shoots people in the face for money who perhaps in the best of times is able to rise above not only himself but the entire world which has also decended into the very depths of the worse aspects of the meta-human soul.

Well. At the end of the day, it's just about paying rent. smile.gif
fistandantilus4.0
well that isn't necessarily true. There was that nifty little mechanic for 'bad karma' in third edition that you could give to players for being fucked up a-holes if you so chose. Another one of those optional rules you want to let the players know about before hand. Basically it's karma for the opposition.

Me, I love using bad karma, but I pretty much only gave it out when a player did something bad to one of my books. sarcastic.gif
TheOOB
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
QUOTE (Fix-it @ Mar 10 2007, 12:32 AM)
christ, what the hell happened to just shooting people?

A good murder is like a good orgasm. You have to build up to it.

Just shooting someone is like a 5-second handjob. Yeah, the mission is accomplished, but both you and your partner are going to be disappointed by it.

If you are patient and make things last just long enough, you will receive immense satisfaction and your partner will be able to enjoy the sweet release.

I'm not sure whats worse, the fact that you are relating murder to orgasms, or the fact that it makes sense.
fistandantilus4.0
or the fact that I'd considered putting part of that in to my sig...
nathanross
QUOTE (Ravor)
Umm, nathanross, you do realize that Karma in Shadowrun isn't about being 'good' right? If anything it is about reaching goals and getting the job done. Remember that at you are a horrible human being who shoots people in the face for money who perhaps in the best of times is able to rise above not only himself but the entire world which has also decended into the very depths of the worse aspects of the meta-human soul.


I do understand that most of the time karma is used as experience points, but the fact that it is NOT CALLED experience points is something of a hint.

Sure, most GMs let their sammy go around slicing people up for the fun of it, but I believe this looses an entire aspect of the game and roleplaying. Anyone amateur can kill some one. Hell I could go down to Walmart, pick up a shotgun, case of shells and presume to shoot the first person I see, but I dont. Millions of people in America dont. Sure, you can say that they are scared of the law and its repercussions, but Im sure quite a few of them also realize that the person behind the counter is another human being with a family and friends who love and care for them. When you kill that person you are killing a part of all the people's lives who care for them or even know them. When you kill someone you should realize that, and it should NOT be easy.

Next time you run, try loading your gun with gel rounds, see how it feels. See if it makes your run any less fun. Afterall, that is why we all play this game, because it's fun.
TheOOB
It is true, karma in shadowrun is more then simply experiance, I suppose it's a form a mystical brownie points, basically whatever force is behind the world likes people who do dangerous and exciting things.

I've never seen evidence in shadowrun that said things that grant karma have to be good things, they just have to be exciting things.
hyzmarca
Some old adventures had some bizarre goals and karma rewards. One, for example, requires that the runners perform a forcible hair styling without producing any casualties.

But that was back will Shadowrun still had some moral polarization. As time went on the game world became more and more gray and amoral.

In D&D, good characters have a moral obligation to kill infant kobolds because they are evil and there they have a moral obligation to good genocidal tyrants who order the slaughter of millions baby kobolds because they are good.

In SR, there is no clear right or wrong. If you shoot the stuffer shack clerk in the face, it will hurt some people, but good things will come of it, too. If you don't shoot the stuffer shack clerk, eventually something bad is going to happen, anyway. No stance can be considered to be considered to be morally right or morally wrong.
If you shoot a guard with gel rounds and leave him unconscious, he gets fired and his family is out on the streets. If you shoot a guard with Ex-Ex then his family can live comfortably on his life insurance. It is a trade off.

If you want to play a certain moral code that is fine; but, one thing about SR is that the universe does not favor one moral code over another; it doesn't force people to shoehorn themselves into a set of arbitrary moral laws or paradigms and even the most murderous fraggers have their good sides.
So, it really comes down to roleplaying. Is that what the character would do? If the character is a pacifist then he should be played as such. If the character is a amoral motherfragger, then he should be played as such. The only limits are those of the group's comfort level, as certain actions may make the other players uncomfortable an ruin their enjoyment of the game.
nathanross
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
So, it really comes down to roleplaying. Is that what the character would do? If the character is a pacifist then he should be played as such. If the character is a amoral motherfragger, then he should be played as such. The only limits are those of the group's comfort level, as certain actions may make the other players uncomfortable an ruin their enjoyment of the game.


I couldnt agree more. Same reason I actually quite like the orgasm thing, and for a character who is like that, killing (at least the right way) should be deserving of karma. However, most players kill in Shadowrun not because it is an aspect of the character, but because they either cant or wont think about it. That is the problem, not the fact that every now and then people do play twised SOB's.
Garrowolf
I think characters that are following ANY moral code should get extra karma because they are limiting their character for role playing
Fix-it
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
If you shoot a guard with Ex-Ex then his family can live comfortably on his life insurance.

and his kids end up without a father figure, and descend into a life of drugs, gangs, and crime.

Only shades of gray.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Fix-it @ Mar 11 2007, 02:09 PM)
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Mar 10 2007, 09:16 PM)
If you shoot a guard with Ex-Ex then his family can live comfortably on his life insurance.

and his kids end up without a father figure, and descend into a life of drugs, gangs, and crime.


Or he's been raping his kids every night before bed and they are finally relieved that the abuse is over.

Shades of Grey, indeed. The thing is that metahumans aren't omniscient. You don't know if shooting this random dude in the face is ultimately a good thing or a bad thing. The default is to assume that it is a bad thing until there is compelling evidence to the contrary because otherwise everyone would be shot in the face, but that is a practical decision rather than a moral one.
Synner667
Ahhh, Nanite Cutters.


Best use of them I've seen is in Diamond Age, where a criminal has a drink and gets sentenced by a judge.
He walks a long a path and walks to the end of a pier, overlooking a lake.
Puzzled, he stands there wondering if he's in the right place, what's going on.
Just as he decides he's been let off, the Cutters activate and he becomes a red mess that falls gracefully into the lake.

I'd agree that they're overkill and very horrid and much to expensive for anything but very specific and expensive situations [Bit like a Cancer Gun, really].


Just my thruppence..
snowRaven
There's been numerous 'hints' over the years that Karma is indeed linked to both successfully completing objectives AND being moral.

A strong hint is the 'Karma for Cash' optional rules from SR3 to be used in Amoral Campaigns.

The morals portrayed by the various runs and books are not, of course, even remotely as 'strict' as those normal people follow. But they do indicate that even cold-hearted runners should have SOME concept of right and wrong, if they want to earn all the Karma they can.
Synner667
QUOTE (snowRaven)
There's been numerous 'hints' over the years that Karma is indeed linked to both successfully completing objectives AND being moral.

A strong hint is the 'Karma for Cash' optional rules from SR3 to be used in Amoral Campaigns.

The morals portrayed by the various runs and books are not, of course, even remotely as 'strict' as those normal people follow. But they do indicate that even cold-hearted runners should have SOME concept of right and wrong, if they want to earn all the Karma they can.

If you read the novels, very few [if any] of the characters are horrid people.
ShadowDragon8685
Even in a system with shades of grey, there's gonna be very, very light grey (aka, white), and very, very dark grey (aka black).

Yeah, the Sixth World is a bleak place. And neither are you omniscient, nor are you expected to be so. However, you can still be good or rotten.

White: Shooting only with gel rounds or stick'n shock and only using Stunbolt. No matter what's being fired at you.

Light Grey: Only killing the reprehensible people*, and those for whom you have no real option save killing, such as those guys behind the MG in the MG nest.

Grey: Killing those who oppose you, but not those who don't. (IE: You shoot everyone who fights back, but just KO those who don't.)

Dark Gray: Killing everyone, whether or not they threw down their weapons and begged for mercy.

Black: Torturing people for fun, forcing people to watch snuff beetles, killing people who aren't remotely connected to the run who might just be witnesses or might not.



Most moral Shadowrunners fall somewhere between Light Grey and Grey. This is okay - you're still having a net positive impact, and you can still resort to desperate measures if you have to. You can do very bad things to utterly evil people and generally get away with it. It's not a matter of enjoying torture, it's a matter of destroying a monster, oftentimes by using explosives. You don't like collateral damage, and you minimize it if at all possible, but if you have to cause you, you do. If you have to blow up Mr. Evil von Boilsorphans's chaufer, his staff aide and his joyboy because you're never going to get another chance at putting a Grand Dragon ATGM through his limo, you can do it. You'll probably feel sorry about the joyboy, and rightly so, but your net effective is positive.

And it always leaves you room for those personal grudges. Could be the nicest person in town, always tries to use gel rounds, but when you were a child, your best friend was an elf who got kidnapped by Humanis and skinned alive. And so you pull out all the stops when it comes to Humanis, including things you'd never think of otherwise; kidnapping their children, threatening their families, car bombs, etcetera.


So no. Shadowrunners do not all have to be the scum of the earth, nor are they upheld to Paladin standards of behavior.
FrankTrollman
QUOTE
White: Shooting only with gel rounds or stick'n shock and only using Stunbolt. No matter what's being fired at you.


If what's being fired at you is toxic bolts from a Poisoner Mage who's trying to wipe out all life on Earth by filling the gulf stream with dioxin - how is that any whiter than just dropping an incindiary bomb on his location? If you hold back and millions or even billions of people die because of it are your hands any cleaner?

QUOTE
Shadowrunners do not all have to be the scum of the earth, nor are they upheld to Paladin standards of behavior.


Darn good thing that. Paladin behavior standards are retarded. They can't:
  • Use Poison. Yeah, while they are allowed to kill people by repeatedly smashing their face in with a beaked hammer, but you can't use narcoject because it's poison. A Paladin can't use Neurostun or CS gas either because nonlethal toxins are toxins, and that's an arbitrary no-no.
  • Associate with Evil people. Yep, that member of the Humanis policlub who's a total jerk and wants to kill all the metahumans? He's totally evil, but he probably also wants, say, potable water. A Paladin can't work with him to ensure clean water is available in the inner cities because the guy has a position on a completely unrelated issue which the Paladin won't put up with.
  • Employ non-good people. Everyone a Paladin employs has to be Lawful Good. That means that a Paladin can't, for example, give money to an apathetic private investigator to try to find the dirt on an Evil Blood Sorcerer. It may save the world and it doesn't harm anything, but the Paladin won't do it because the investigator doesn't reall care that much.
  • Never Lie. That one just makes my head explode.

Paladins have a code of conduct which is intolerant and inane. The things they can and cannot do are completely arbitrary and in almost no cases do they actually make the world a better place for anyone.

-Frank
KarmaInferno
QUOTE (Synner667 @ Mar 20 2007, 09:59 PM)
Ahhh, Nanite Cutters.

Best use of them I've seen is in Diamond Age, where a criminal has a drink and gets sentenced by a judge.
He walks a long a path and walks to the end of a pier, overlooking a lake. Puzzled, he stands there wondering if he's in the right place, what's going on. Just as he decides he's been let off, the Cutters activate and he becomes a red mess that falls gracefully into the lake.

If I remember correctly, they were "officially" used simply to keep prisoners in line. You got caught, you got dosed with the cutters so you wouldn't cause any fuss during the legal processing.

Step out of the approved zones, get juiced. Act out, get juiced. Say the wrong thing to the wrong person, well, you get the idea. With the cutters in place they barely needed any security despite a rather large number of criminals in the facility awaiting their trials.

The schmoe in question was awaiting the results of his trial, and they told him to go to the red loading zone at the end of the dock and wait. They implied he'd be getting picked up or something, but never actually came out and stated so.

Of course, once he got out there and started to wonder why the "red loading zone" was all sticky, it was too late.

biggrin.gif

Note, however, that the setting of the Diamond Age had nanotechnology integrated so completely into society that just about every square inch of space was teeming with hundreds of the tiny buggers. Including inside your body and out. If you cupped your hands together to create a dark space, you could see the faint glimmer of the nanites in the air transmitting data to each other via light pulses. So the cost of nanite cutters there would have been likely negligible.


-karma
hyzmarca
QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Mar 22 2007, 12:51 PM)
QUOTE
White: Shooting only with gel rounds or stick'n shock and only using Stunbolt. No matter what's being fired at you.


If what's being fired at you is toxic bolts from a Poisoner Mage who's trying to wipe out all life on Earth by filling the gulf stream with dioxin - how is that any whiter than just dropping an incindiary bomb on his location? If you hold back and millions or even billions of people die because of it are your hands any cleaner?


QUOTE (Gandhi)
I would like you to lay down the arms you have as being useless for saving you or humanity. You will invite Herr Hitler and Signor Mussolini to take what they want of the countries you call your possessions.... If these gentlemen choose to occupy your homes, you will vacate them. If they do not give you free passage out, you will allow yourselves, man, woman, and child, to be slaughtered [...]


Killing the poisoner mage is wrong no matter how many people he will kill if you don't. Allowing him to slaughter millions is far better than getting his blood on your own hands, according to some philosophies.

As for the Humanis goon, he would be Good or Neutral, not evil. Because Orks and Trolls are evil races so anyone who wants to kill them must not be evil.
Demerzel
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Mar 22 2007, 03:58 PM)
As for the Humanis good, he would be Good or Neutral, not evil. Because Orks and Trolls are evil races so anyone who wants to kill them must not be evil.

But he also wants to kill Elfs and dwarves. So all he wants is to kill, regardles of good or evil, he's just a killer. So he's Evil.

QUOTE (Martin Blank)
Psychopaths kill for no reason, I kill for money.
Serial_Peacemaker
Oddly the scene where the nanite cutters were used in Diamond Age always struck me as more or less killing Cyberpunk in that books time line. Kind of a "This is a stereotypical cyberpunk. This is what happens to them"
FrankTrollman
QUOTE
Killing the poisoner mage is wrong no matter how many people is will kill if you don't. Allowing him to slaughter millions is far better than getting his blood on your own hands, according to some philosophies.


Yeah, well Gandhi is responsible for the bitter divide between India and Pakistan, a senseless conflict that has resulted in four wars and claimed the lives of tens of thousands of people. That is exactly the shit I'm talking about - allowing bullies like Muhammmad Ali Jinnah to have their way because you don't want to directly hurt people is hurting people.

Whether you throw a knife at someone's chest or press a button that causes a knife to be thrown at someone's chest, you sent a knife at the dude's chest and you'd better be willing to justify that. When cowards like Gandhi come out and say that the inevitable fallout of their actions like the Gujarat riots are somehow OK because they didn't physically attack anyone themselves - that's straight up bullshit.

Al Capone never shot anyone either. Does that mean that his hands are clean and his actions white?

-Frank
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