Full Version: California and Liberation from Saito
| QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Jun 12 2007, 09:06 PM) |
| One Hundred and Eleven years ago the LDS church bent over and compromised its religious beliefs in the name of political expedience and it has been the government's butt-whore ever since. Only a few highly marginalized splinter-churches were actually willing to stick to their guns and defy the government's immoral laws. The fact that SAIM was going to leave them be and allow them to practice their faith any way they want, allowing for the return of mainstream official legal polygamy certainly wouldn't have hurt matters. |
Look out! Your ignorance is showing!
Ignorance?
Well the part about the LDS is accurate, as for their having to outlaw anymore polygamous marriages from a certain date, all previous marriages were "grandfathered" in. This was one conditions for the Utah territory? to become state in the US.
From historical records, the LDS treated the Native Americans better than the US government back then, but still not as good as it should have been.
Now are there splinter groups/organizations within the LDS oh yes. One of the main issues is the polygamous marriage or official lack there of.
So having the Native Americans and those LDS splinter groups get together and play lets make a deal, is a definite possibility.
As for the Native American groups having passed down the magical know how, oh yes. The rest of the ones that might had passed down magical know how, they did not have the "Fire in their Bellies" like the Native Americans would have.
As for Thais, I have not heard/read of this person.
Well the part about the LDS is accurate, as for their having to outlaw anymore polygamous marriages from a certain date, all previous marriages were "grandfathered" in. This was one conditions for the Utah territory? to become state in the US.
From historical records, the LDS treated the Native Americans better than the US government back then, but still not as good as it should have been.
Now are there splinter groups/organizations within the LDS oh yes. One of the main issues is the polygamous marriage or official lack there of.
So having the Native Americans and those LDS splinter groups get together and play lets make a deal, is a definite possibility.
As for the Native American groups having passed down the magical know how, oh yes. The rest of the ones that might had passed down magical know how, they did not have the "Fire in their Bellies" like the Native Americans would have.
As for Thais, I have not heard/read of this person.
| QUOTE (Alexandru) |
| Long Beach, CA here. The CalFree stuff is utter garbage, nothing really worth using. But a lot of the meta-setting in SR is dumb, and I throw out. The whole NAN Indian.. thing.. yeah.. I have lived in the U.S. for over 20 years and have never seen a Amerindian, I have met more people from weird unknown SouthEast Asian countries than Indians. Its hard for me to believe that they took over most of the continental U.S. magic or no magic. |
I would almost promise you this is incorrect.
Very few Native Americans walk around these days in buckskins and bone vests.
While pure Islands myself (pretty thorough blend of Scot, Irish, Whelsh, and Anglo), My uncle worked for BIA, and I grew up dealing with a lot of the reservataions and have been on pretty good terms with alot.
I have been very few places in the US, where i HAVEN't seen people pure enough to qualify to get their tribal papers. Very few of these though unless doing something for the nation's make it extremely obvious.
Furthermoore alot of them will get confused for whites or Hispanics.
I you have lived in the US for 20 years I would say you have never seen somebody you REALIZED was Amerindian, but havent seen ... well unless you are blind I will almost promise you that isnt the case.
| QUOTE (laughingowl) |
| Very few Native Americans walk around these days in buckskins and bone vests. While pure Islands myself (pretty thorough blend of Scot, Irish, Whelsh, and Anglo), My uncle worked for BIA, and I grew up dealing with a lot of the reservataions and have been on pretty good terms with alot. I have been very few places in the US, where i HAVEN't seen people pure enough to qualify to get their tribal papers. Very few of these though unless doing something for the nation's make it extremely obvious. Furthermoore alot of them will get confused for whites or Hispanics. I you have lived in the US for 20 years I would say you have never seen somebody you REALIZED was Amerindian, but havent seen ... well unless you are blind I will almost promise you that isnt the case. |
Agreed. I lived in a Native American program house for half of my college time and my SR gaming group was 50% Native American at the time (which made for some great discussions of SR backstory). It would be very easy to mistake many of the Native Americans I lived with as white or Hispanic (some were even mistaken for Asian). And some of the tribal nations have such loose qualification laws that you pretty much can be White or Hispanic or Asian and still qualify.
But, yes, the population numbers given to the Native American Nations in Shadowrun are grossly out of whack. My group's explanation always was that large portions of the Hispanic population--as well as other racial groups--joined up with the Native Americans during the Indian Wars. For social reasons, economic reasons, or because it was the Native American revolutionaries who had proved that magic had returned to the world.
Appeal to Ridicule? Please. The least you could do is throw around some out-of-context quotes that provide some theological support for the banning of polygamy.
I don't mean to turn this into a religious debate, I simply feel that there is no solid theological justification for the banning of polygamy and I also feel that the government has no legitimate right to dictate how many people an individual may marry or what those people may have between their legs.
If the Appeal to Ridicule was instead directed at the statements about Native American freedom fighters, then I'm sorry to say that these United States and, to a lesser extent, Canada have engage in systematic genocide against the Native American population, achieving a level of cultural suppression and a death-toll that almost certain made Hitler envious. And it was a genocide no matter how some people may try to sugar coat it.
And, in the Shadowrun timeline, the US and Canadian governments were forcing Native Americans off of their reservations and into concentration camps to sell the land to the newly independent megacorps for a huge profit long before SAIM's first attack. And those concentration camps became extermination camps very quickly.
They certainly had every right to defend themselves from genocide.
Thais first appeared in World's Without end. He's the child of the annoyingly tragic IE Aina and the baddass evil Horror Ysrthgrathe. Unfortunatly, Thais is neither baddass nor tragic but is instead completely annoying a goth/emo "Wah Wah, I'm a monster and nobody understands me" way. He could level continents with blood magic and take down GDs in single combat, but instead he just hangs around the metaplanes moping and occasionally poses as a Native American deity.
I don't mean to turn this into a religious debate, I simply feel that there is no solid theological justification for the banning of polygamy and I also feel that the government has no legitimate right to dictate how many people an individual may marry or what those people may have between their legs.
If the Appeal to Ridicule was instead directed at the statements about Native American freedom fighters, then I'm sorry to say that these United States and, to a lesser extent, Canada have engage in systematic genocide against the Native American population, achieving a level of cultural suppression and a death-toll that almost certain made Hitler envious. And it was a genocide no matter how some people may try to sugar coat it.
And, in the Shadowrun timeline, the US and Canadian governments were forcing Native Americans off of their reservations and into concentration camps to sell the land to the newly independent megacorps for a huge profit long before SAIM's first attack. And those concentration camps became extermination camps very quickly.
They certainly had every right to defend themselves from genocide.
Thais first appeared in World's Without end. He's the child of the annoyingly tragic IE Aina and the baddass evil Horror Ysrthgrathe. Unfortunatly, Thais is neither baddass nor tragic but is instead completely annoying a goth/emo "Wah Wah, I'm a monster and nobody understands me" way. He could level continents with blood magic and take down GDs in single combat, but instead he just hangs around the metaplanes moping and occasionally poses as a Native American deity.
| QUOTE (laughingowl) |
| I have been very few places in the US, where i HAVEN't seen people pure enough to qualify to get their tribal papers. Very few of these though unless doing something for the nation's make it extremely obvious. |
Heck, I could qualify as being Native American if I wanted to and I'm as white-bread as they come.
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| Appeal to Ridicule? Please. The least you could do is throw around some out-of-context quotes that provide some theological support for the banning of polygamy. |
If you want to discuss my religion, PM me with your address, I'll send some missionaries over to discuss it with you.
As for the NAN. First of all, the US sending them to internment camps is just plain stupid. There's no way it would happen.
The current generation wouldn't stand for it and niether would the next. The US is not some hick bigot country... anymore. The hippies at least did one thing right
The real world and Shadowrun dirverged in September of 1986, when Chief Justice Warren Burger retired in the real world but did not retire in Shadowrun.
This lead to a drastically different political climate, the effects of which altered the course of practically every US election from 1989 onward and lead directly to a Supreme Court decision that made multinational corporations literally above the law. By 2005 there had been a nuclear war between Israel and Lybia. In 2006 Japan invades North Korea and declares itself to be an empire once again.
The Resource Rush was rather reasonable given the history of US/Native American relations. For the most part, it is dificult to imagine that the majority of voters actually cared. Until Lone Eagle, the only people who were effected were those who lived on poor reservations. Lone Eagle was Shadowrun's 9/11. We're rounding up Arabs and throwing them into internment camps today and there hasn't been a revolution, despite some protests.
This lead to a drastically different political climate, the effects of which altered the course of practically every US election from 1989 onward and lead directly to a Supreme Court decision that made multinational corporations literally above the law. By 2005 there had been a nuclear war between Israel and Lybia. In 2006 Japan invades North Korea and declares itself to be an empire once again.
The Resource Rush was rather reasonable given the history of US/Native American relations. For the most part, it is dificult to imagine that the majority of voters actually cared. Until Lone Eagle, the only people who were effected were those who lived on poor reservations. Lone Eagle was Shadowrun's 9/11. We're rounding up Arabs and throwing them into internment camps today and there hasn't been a revolution, despite some protests.
| QUOTE (Rajaat99) | ||
If you want to discuss my religion, PM me with your address, I'll send some missionaries over to discuss it with you. As for the NAN. First of all, the US sending them to internment camps is just plain stupid. There's no way it would happen. The current generation wouldn't stand for it and niether would the next. The US is not some hick bigot country... anymore. The hippies at least did one thing right |
LOL well lets see as of right now the US Government has "secured" persons with out due process of US Law, and intends to hold for a very long time. But it is ok due the US Government says they are "bad people", and as you know Our US Government would never lie or mislead us.
And yes it can and could happen the vast majority of the American people are Sheep compared to those of the 1960.
WMS
Draft Number 85
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| We're rounding up Arabs and throwing them into internment camps today and there hasn't been a revolution, despite some protests. |
Yeah, it's all the Mossad and Bushitler that blew up the WTC. The thousands of surviving workers and firefighters were all paid off to not talk about the miles of det cord and the dozens of guys who were ripping out the walls to plant explosives. Naturally this secret, shared by 10,000 people who had their friends killed will, ever leak out. Which is why the huge camps in the Sonoran Desert are full of hundreds of thousands of men, women and children dragged screaming off the streets and LEFT TO DIE!!!!!!
| QUOTE (kzt) | ||
Once you go rogue you lose your logistics. So you won't get any spare parts for your imperial AFVs, helos, etc. Given that a company can choose to continue to get several multi-tens of billion/year nuyen contracts from the Imperial military or they can support Saito and instead spend several billion a year on a military adventure, have Aries be the new Imperial military supplier, and likely get assassinated by "young army officers", which would you choose? |
I think Colonel Saito's coup can be made sense of by focusing on the Japanacorps in S.F. What gain did they plot? What would have been profitable enough to be worth encouraging and then materially supporting "General-Protector" Saito's megalomania and light division and a half of Imperial Marines?
Since February 2037, also, the Japanese Imperial Marines must have helped establish numerous supporting industries, even if most of these were subsidiaries of the Japancorps.
So although kzt makes a good point about the likely greater profitability of supporting the Japanese Imperial Marines, the canon assertion is that the Emperor recalled his marines, in the wake of an earthquake as I recall.
Perhaps the Japancorps didn't want to lose their most direct profit-makers and therefore plotted Saito's coup?
Rajaat99 critiqued SR making California "as being full of a bunch of racist bigots. California is very tolerant. Granted I'm sure there are some people that would have the "I don't like those metas" attitude, but Sacramento and the Bay area would not be those places."
Having lived in several parts of California, I tend to agree, but California also has its share of reactionary / (neo)conservative voters too, and the sense I made of SR's version is that many "liberals" died during the Sixth World's birth, and that the many scars of those who survived hardened their hearts against metahumans in the years immediately following UGE and Goblinization.
Also, the 50 million figure that Frank mentions makes sense if a substantial portion of Western states' population (those that became the NAN) fled to California as refugees or during the decade of resettlement following the Treaty of Denver.
What do you think?
That the IJN would have used 4 carriers to reduce his bases and every Japanacorp building in SF, to scrap two weeks after the coup, along with delivering 1000 kg guided bombs on the corporate HQ and homes of the board of directors of the corps. No military or country can allow anyone to think they can get away with this. This is declaring war on Japan and the emperor and would be met with raw military force.
| QUOTE (kzt) | ||
Yeah, it's all the Mossad and Bushitler that blew up the WTC. The thousands of surviving workers and firefighters were all paid off to not talk about the miles of det cord and the dozens of guys who were ripping out the walls to plant explosives. Naturally this secret, shared by 10,000 people who had their friends killed will, ever leak out. Which is why the huge camps in the Sonoran Desert are full of hundreds of thousands of men, women and children dragged screaming off the streets and LEFT TO DIE!!!!!! |
That's just insane.
Bush conspired with the Bin-Ladens to hit the WTC with planes in order to promote fundamentalist Islam in the Middle East.
Leveling every Japanacorp building in SF wouldn't work very well. It is called the Military-Industrial Complex for a reason. If a government ever went war with its entrenched megacorps it would be destroyed. These corps are the basis of its military. They produce the weapons. Without the corporations to provide the equpiment there would be no military.
A Megacorp can afford to destroy a country's economy, though it might sustain heavy loses in doing so. The Japanacorps are so entrenched into the economy of Japan that, if they suddenly decided to forsake Japan and suck up the resulting loses, they could easily destroy the country.
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| It is called the Military-Industrial Complex for a reason. If a government ever went war with its entrenched megacorps it would be destroyed. These corps are the basis of its military. They produce the weapons. Without the corporations to provide the equpiment there would be no military. |
Going to war with your largest, and in most cases, your only customer for military equipment is totally, frigging insane! Where do you get a new customer that has a large, high-tech military and doesn't already have a supplier they are satisfied with? I'm sure Aztlan will drop Aztechnolgies to go with Japancorp hardware, or maybe the UCAS will dump Aries, etc? I don't think so. So they have just destroyed their entire military sales division.
Getting a new supplier is easy. Aries or Saeder-Krupp would be glad to supply them with oodles of top of the line equipment if asked. They'd even do extensive customization for free, discount hugely off list and do whatever else was needed to make the Generals and Admirals happy. They'd even make copies of the existing product if that was needed. Their sales people would kill for a major contract to reequip a tier one military force's armor, combat aircraft, or ships. These opportunities don't come along very often (as in NEVER).
This of course assumes that the plants don't just get seized and operated under new management.
| QUOTE |
| A Megacorp can afford to destroy a country's economy, though it might sustain heavy loses in doing so. The Japanacorps are so entrenched into the economy of Japan that, if they suddenly decided to forsake Japan and suck up the resulting loses, they could easily destroy the country. |
The cool thing about dealing with an extrateritorial entity that attacks you is that you don't have to go to court for court orders, you can just drive a tank through the front gate. Once you have all the senior management under arrest or dead and physical control of the Japaneses assets it's unlikely they will be doing anything. Oratio Ultima Regem
| QUOTE (kzt) |
| The cool thing about dealing with an extrateritorial entity that attacks you is that you don't have to go to court for court orders, you can just drive a tank through the front gate. Once you have all the senior management under arrest or dead and physical control of the Japaneses assets it's unlikely they will be doing anything. Oratio Ultima Regem |
Not quite:
While YOUR legal system may back declaring war on an outsider at whim, better belive with out a Court Order from the corporate court there is going to be some serious repercussions.
repercussions worse than having your country's economy reduced to bartering chickens?
Possibly. That depends on the combined yield of Zurich Orbital's munitions supplies. Between Nukes and Thor Shots, they can send a message that uppity nations should never mess with a CC seatholder. Japan has relatively small surface area. Among the Sixth Worlds major nations it would be the easiest to completely reduce to radioactive wasteland.
The great thing about being a corporation with the facilities to build aircraft carriers and nuclear weapons and the like is that you can be your own customer, too.
The great thing about being a corporation with the facilities to build aircraft carriers and nuclear weapons and the like is that you can be your own customer, too.
Well No health care, no electrical services, no police services, no transportation services.
Plus likely a 'free-for=all' being given where the megas (and near megas) are told no repercussions if they go to 'aqcuire' land.
If the CC is willing to trhough their own to the dogs when the break the rules, I would imagine a 'goverment' that tried the same would get the same treatment.
The CC as potrayed is everything the UN wishes it was. (Well the still have the infighting but any group of people is), but unlike the UN the CC is potrayed as having teeth.
If the unions can bring New York to a halt now-adays, (either trash or public transist), then the mega-corps are a few dozen time 'stronger' then that.
Plus likely a 'free-for=all' being given where the megas (and near megas) are told no repercussions if they go to 'aqcuire' land.
If the CC is willing to trhough their own to the dogs when the break the rules, I would imagine a 'goverment' that tried the same would get the same treatment.
The CC as potrayed is everything the UN wishes it was. (Well the still have the infighting but any group of people is), but unlike the UN the CC is potrayed as having teeth.
If the unions can bring New York to a halt now-adays, (either trash or public transist), then the mega-corps are a few dozen time 'stronger' then that.
| QUOTE (laughingowl) |
| While YOUR legal system may back declaring war on an outsider at whim, better belive with out a Court Order from the corporate court there is going to be some serious repercussions. |
You of course are reasonable and non-confrontational about how you were forced to act, but require that all discussions be conducted in person, in Japanese and via hand delivered documents. Until it's time to stop being non-confrontational, when diplomacy by other means might be needed.
Like when the new directors of Shiawase, Mitsuhama, and Renraku have to nominate new judges after that most unfortunate terrorist attack. Wonder if hundreds of billions worth of military contracts might help Ares see the light of reason? And I suspect that pro-metahuman policies might be supported by certain important people in Evo.
yes, but we're talking about war with megacorps either way. a country can either lay down and take it, or they can fight back and hope for the best. if the Japanacorps all pulled out of Japan, Japan would pretty much end. whatever the CC might decide to do in retaliation for any attempt by Japan to seize Japanacorp assets in the event of such a pullout can't possibly be worse than that.
Which is why they wouldn't risk it in the first place. If the Japanacorps do something like support Saito then its their problem, not Japan's.
Of course, there is also the fact that the Japanacorps have strong political connections in the government to help prevent a full-scale retaliation. The government does not begin or end with the Emperor. While he is far more powerful in the Sixth World than he is in reality, the vast majority of power still lies with the Diet. Chances are that most Diet members will also hold shares in at least one Japanacorp and some probably sit on a Board of Directors. Many will hold dual Japan/Corporate citizenship.
It is pretty much impossibly to untangle Japanacorps from Japanese politics just as it is with all nationally-based Megas and their home nations. And this is ample reason for Japan to let Saito be. The Japanacorps are still profiting and enough Diet members are shareholders to make it worth the Diet's while to let it be.
Of course, there is also the fact that the Japanacorps have strong political connections in the government to help prevent a full-scale retaliation. The government does not begin or end with the Emperor. While he is far more powerful in the Sixth World than he is in reality, the vast majority of power still lies with the Diet. Chances are that most Diet members will also hold shares in at least one Japanacorp and some probably sit on a Board of Directors. Many will hold dual Japan/Corporate citizenship.
It is pretty much impossibly to untangle Japanacorps from Japanese politics just as it is with all nationally-based Megas and their home nations. And this is ample reason for Japan to let Saito be. The Japanacorps are still profiting and enough Diet members are shareholders to make it worth the Diet's while to let it be.
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| Possibly. That depends on the combined yield of Zurich Orbital's munitions supplies. Between Nukes and Thor Shots, they can send a message that uppity nations should never mess with a CC seatholder. Japan has relatively small surface area. Among the Sith Worlds major nations it would be the easiest to completely reduce to radioactive wasteland. |
Engaging in a nuclear war with a major military power is bad for business. Particuarly if your corporate HQ's city is likely to have a 50,000 degree day as part of this war. And that giant tinkertoy in LEO is pretty darn vulnerable to a few bomb-pumped x-ray lasers and then getting illuminated by a couple of Gw ASAT lasers. Not that anyone would do that. But it would tend to kind of prevent any decision if they were all dead, now wouldn't it?
| QUOTE |
| The great thing about being a corporation with the facilities to build aircraft carriers and nuclear weapons and the like is that you can be your own customer, too. |
I hate to tell you this, but your return on investment in buying and operating effective military hardware is hugely negative. Every carrier you build is another chip fab or jet engine model that you didn't build and hence it's a huge amount of profit that you will never see and will instead go to your competitor. Every military unit you maintain is a sinkhole in your balance sheet.
Investors don't like companies that throw away hundreds of billions a year in profits (that should go to them) in the name of prestige.
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| Which is why they wouldn't risk it in the first place. If the Japanacorps do something like support Saito then its their problem, not Japan's. |
agreed. i'm just sayin' if, Japan's probably better off fighting than not.
Agreed, but they're screwed either way.
| QUOTE (kzt) |
| That the IJN would have used 4 carriers to reduce his bases and every Japanacorp building in SF, to scrap two weeks after the coup, along with delivering 1000 kg guided bombs on the corporate HQ and homes of the board of directors of the corps. No military or country can allow anyone to think they can get away with this. This is declaring war on Japan and the emperor and would be met with raw military force. |
Thanks for that suggestion. I agree that the Japanese Imperial State should regard Colonel Saito's coup d'etat as treason, and the likely response is to send "ninjas" to assassinate the "General-Protector" and his subordinate ronin officers.
But, I think that using its carriers (where does the number four come from, just out of the air or a canon source?) to destroy S.F. is highly unlikely, not because the SR publications did not go this way, but instead because of the many Japanese / Japanacorp citizens in S.F., along with the vested interests that those mega-corporations have in Japan itself.
My preference is to make seemingly contradictory sources accord by creative imagination. Where that cannot occur, then of course, it's my prerogative as a GM to select among the inconsistent canon or make it up myself.
If you're interested in that kind of project, I invite you to suggest why / how Saito's coup and invasion of Sacramento, et cetera might / could have occurred, along with the JIS's response, which apparently failed.
Did the JIS send in ninjas? Did they fail or succeed? If they succeeded, why did Saito apparently survive? What role did Japanacorps (and which ones) play? Was Mitsuhama a supporter of the continued JIS marine presence, Shiawase neutral, and Renraku too busy to care? Did Ares actually subvert Saito and compel his coup in order to make a bad situation even worse, with a long term plan to eventually dominate S.F. (and the Japanacorps)? Did ninjas kill Saito, and someone replaced him with biotechnology, conventional disguises, or magic?
Etc.
| QUOTE (Severiin) |
| If you're interested in that kind of project, I invite you to suggest why / how Saito's coup and invasion of Sacramento, et cetera might / could have occurred, along with the JIS's response, which apparently failed. |
Once the narrative reaches a certain level of foolishness it's pointless. One of the real disadvantages of fiction is that it has to be at least vaguely logical and sensible. Totally insane responses only happen in the real world. Nobody would believe a story in which the political leadership of a modern state would pick the most crazed whackjob around, (who's party is busy sliding back into the the swamp of radical parties with 3% of the votes) and give him the power to rule by decree and expect that he would do their bidding, now would they?
Or, Saito wasn't actually rouge and they needed him to look rouge for political reasons.
Saito almost certainly had some support from the Diet, even if the emperor is totally against him. Since the Diet controls the budget, that little bit of support would be enough to keep the emperor off of his back without ressorting to official endorsement.
Saito almost certainly had some support from the Diet, even if the emperor is totally against him. Since the Diet controls the budget, that little bit of support would be enough to keep the emperor off of his back without ressorting to official endorsement.
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| Or, Saito wasn't actually rouge and they needed him to look rouge for political reasons. |
Thanks Hyzmarca for that unintended humor, rouge is a facial coloring, rogue is what you meant, it is common spelling error committed by persons like myself.
Wow, leave for a day and it all fills up with crazy. This is why I rarely discuss religion on open forums when I can help it.
The Mormon Church came in on the Paiute side in the Paiute war against the United States. So there is historical precedent for the Mormon Elders siding against the US in "Indian Conflicts", specifically if the Ute are involved.
Indeed, it is quite plausible that it is that historical event that ended up with the Native American Nation being called the "Ute Nation" despite the fact that almost none of the Utes survive to this day. If the LDS church decided for whatever reason that it was part of the "Native American Nations" rather than the "United States", it would be natural for them to claim their historical place as a military adjunct to Ute forces even though in modern days they would shoulder practically the entirety of the military and industrial burden.
In short: if Utah split off and joined the STC and decided that it was called the "Ute Nation", this would almost certainly be a strategic decision by the Elders of the Mormon Faith, rather than a serious conquest by the remaining Ute tribesmen.
Whether this would be a "correct" action is something I don't even really care to discuss.
-Frank
The Mormon Church came in on the Paiute side in the Paiute war against the United States. So there is historical precedent for the Mormon Elders siding against the US in "Indian Conflicts", specifically if the Ute are involved.
Indeed, it is quite plausible that it is that historical event that ended up with the Native American Nation being called the "Ute Nation" despite the fact that almost none of the Utes survive to this day. If the LDS church decided for whatever reason that it was part of the "Native American Nations" rather than the "United States", it would be natural for them to claim their historical place as a military adjunct to Ute forces even though in modern days they would shoulder practically the entirety of the military and industrial burden.
In short: if Utah split off and joined the STC and decided that it was called the "Ute Nation", this would almost certainly be a strategic decision by the Elders of the Mormon Faith, rather than a serious conquest by the remaining Ute tribesmen.
Whether this would be a "correct" action is something I don't even really care to discuss.
-Frank
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| Saito almost certainly had some support from the Diet, even if the emperor is totally against him. |
Absolutely. Saito disobeyed the Emperor, but it's important to remember that much of the Diet disagreed with the Emperor also, as did the Japanacorps. He was definitely not completely cut off from Japanese or corporate backing.
| QUOTE (Demonseed Elite) | ||
Absolutely. Saito disobeyed the Emperor, but it's important to remember that much of the Diet disagreed with the Emperor also, as did the Japanacorps. He was definitely not completely cut off from Japanese or corporate backing. |
Definately not, the Japanacorps are who put him "in charge" after the IMs were called back to Japan, and they did so to keep their interests out of the hands of TT and Aztlan who had had their eyes on Calfree for years.
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