Full Version: Thoughts on Goblinization and Social Prejudice
eh, well ,there ya go then. I think I was thinking of SOTA 62 where it talked about the genetic differences in metas, like where trolls tend more towards being lactose intolerent than the other races, that sort of thing.
| QUOTE (knasser @ Mar 15 2007, 03:11 AM) | ||||
Way to edit out the first six lines of my post. Put the "given the prevalence and undoubted sophistication and dirt-cheapness of birth control in 2070," back in the start of that sentance, would you? |
Well, you see, the thing is that getting a condom, opening the wrapper and putting it on in the heat of the moment, it just ruins the mood. And even with planning, it just doesn't feel right. The sensation is different.
Coitus interruptus works almost as well, although that sort of ruins the mood, too so I guess we'll just have to see what happens with that.
Besides, the statistical probability of conceiving at any one time is rather low. A woman is only fertile three days a month. There is a 90% chance that it isn't even possible. And then there are issues about sperm count and cervical mucus. I mean, some people spend hundreds of thousands nuyen just trying to conceive. It isn't that big a risk.
And even if it was, everybody knows that you can't get pregnant your first time.
And if you're really woried you can douche with Pepsi. That works. The carbonation kills sperm.
eww.
Think about this Knasser, teen pregnancys are pretty common now a days. So is sex ed, and birth control (Planned Parenthood fo example). But it still happens. A lot of the places that offer birth control to orks are sponsored by groups like Humanins. That's kinda like the cave man geting Geiko (sorry for those of you who haven't seen the commercial and that makes no sense to).
Anyways, the point is, just because it may be available, doesn't mean people are going to use it. Look at the way things are now. Besides, if you're living in Redmon jsut trying to figure out how to feed your self, condoms aren't a big one on the shopping list. Add in extra mouths from the first kid(s), and it's even more an issue. You worry a lot less about birth control when keeping diapers around, getting vacinnnations, and eating the family dog, are on your to do list. Some things just get lost in the mix.
That's by no means exclusive to orks BTW. But the fact that they do have more kids makes it a faster escalation once/if the first are born.
Think about this Knasser, teen pregnancys are pretty common now a days. So is sex ed, and birth control (Planned Parenthood fo example). But it still happens. A lot of the places that offer birth control to orks are sponsored by groups like Humanins. That's kinda like the cave man geting Geiko (sorry for those of you who haven't seen the commercial and that makes no sense to).
Anyways, the point is, just because it may be available, doesn't mean people are going to use it. Look at the way things are now. Besides, if you're living in Redmon jsut trying to figure out how to feed your self, condoms aren't a big one on the shopping list. Add in extra mouths from the first kid(s), and it's even more an issue. You worry a lot less about birth control when keeping diapers around, getting vacinnnations, and eating the family dog, are on your to do list. Some things just get lost in the mix.
That's by no means exclusive to orks BTW. But the fact that they do have more kids makes it a faster escalation once/if the first are born.
| QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0 @ Mar 16 2007, 01:36 AM) |
| eww. |
Exactly. It doesn't actually kill sperm, either. But it is great for causing yeast infections.
The irony is that Lactational Amenorrhea Method is a highly effective birth control technique and it is completely free, but it is also difficult to use when one considers the hectic schedule of a SINless squatter.
I'm glad to have gotten the scientific version of "Hustler for Orks". Thank you hyzmarca...ewww.
The birth control point still has some validity, but if it is the case and children are a "choice", then it would still mean that the "Orks have children in multiples" point would remain. Okay, so if as a broad stroke we say all couples desire pregnancy twice, then for most races it would be 2 total kids, but for Orks it would be 4+. With that kind of a turn mixed with their rapid physical maturity, they'd have 3 generations in the time humans would have 2, and they would have twice as many kids per generation. I would suppose from that line of thought it would follow that Orks would still end up with a more rapidly spreading population and thus the appearance and stereotype of a ton of kids.
The birth control point still has some validity, but if it is the case and children are a "choice", then it would still mean that the "Orks have children in multiples" point would remain. Okay, so if as a broad stroke we say all couples desire pregnancy twice, then for most races it would be 2 total kids, but for Orks it would be 4+. With that kind of a turn mixed with their rapid physical maturity, they'd have 3 generations in the time humans would have 2, and they would have twice as many kids per generation. I would suppose from that line of thought it would follow that Orks would still end up with a more rapidly spreading population and thus the appearance and stereotype of a ton of kids.
I think the easy pregnancy people here are stuck in thinking about 2007 technology. Actually, I think they're stuck in 1999 technology as right now we have a male contraceptive pill completing clinical trials and it wont be that long before guys can take that. But that's beside the point. In 2070 we have the technology to clone arms and replace eyes (which must mean marrying up the electronics to the myriad little nerve endings of the brain's optic nerves for one thing). We have very advanced technology and it is cheap! Having your eyes replaced costs the same as renting a car for a week. How much cheaper must invisible contraceptives be?
You say we have sex education today and still have teen pregnancies. I say parents drop their kid off at the pharmacy around puberty and he sticks a small contraceptive bud into their wrist, dick or vagina and they don't worry about pregnancy for the next few years.
I'm not saying that unplanned pregnancy doesn't happen in 2070, but I'm saying that discussions of the inconvenience of condoms is irrelevant to the subject. I think accidental pregnancy would be rare and I also think that social acceptance of abortion in SR 2070 would be high. And as to the number of children, I think it would be a simple matter of popping to the clinic with your chosen partner and saying "two please." 2070 tech is just that good and inexpensive.
On a tangent, regarding the whole "teen pregnancy - oh no!" Whlist obviously children should be wanted, I think our society is messed up when having a child is considered ruining your life.
-K.
EDIT: Btw, regarding modern birth control and the likelihood of accidents, it is difficult to conceive a child. It is also very, very easy.
You say we have sex education today and still have teen pregnancies. I say parents drop their kid off at the pharmacy around puberty and he sticks a small contraceptive bud into their wrist, dick or vagina and they don't worry about pregnancy for the next few years.
I'm not saying that unplanned pregnancy doesn't happen in 2070, but I'm saying that discussions of the inconvenience of condoms is irrelevant to the subject. I think accidental pregnancy would be rare and I also think that social acceptance of abortion in SR 2070 would be high. And as to the number of children, I think it would be a simple matter of popping to the clinic with your chosen partner and saying "two please." 2070 tech is just that good and inexpensive.
On a tangent, regarding the whole "teen pregnancy - oh no!" Whlist obviously children should be wanted, I think our society is messed up when having a child is considered ruining your life.
-K.
EDIT: Btw, regarding modern birth control and the likelihood of accidents, it is difficult to conceive a child. It is also very, very easy.
| QUOTE (knasser @ Mar 17 2007, 03:23 AM) |
| You say we have sex education today and still have teen pregnancies. I say parents drop their kid off at the pharmacy around puberty and he sticks a small contraceptive bud into their wrist, dick or vagina and they don't worry about pregnancy for the next few years. |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norplant
We can do that now and have been doing that since 1983, quite cheaply, too. A norplant kit costs $350, give or take, and can last up to 5 years (as opposed to $20-$50 per month for oral contraceptives.)
However, despite being available it is rarely used.
IUDs are even cheaper and have been around longer, although they can be a pain in the cervix to install.
The fact is that despite the fact that we have cheap and effective birth control implants today, most people don't want them and the vast majority of parents don't want their children to have them. Heck, a lot of parents don't want their children to be vaccinated against cervical cancer, for crissake.
That will change, of course, and there will be very few unplanned pregnancies amongst the educated and the wealthy.
However, the poor SINless barrens inhabitants have completely different worries. For many of them, 100
is all they have to spend on a month's groceries and spending it on a birth control implant is just a way to insure that they starve for the month. It is generally true that people who have a comfortable amount of income plan and invest for the future. It is also generally true that people who barely have enough income to survive do neither of these things even when they have a little extra money to spare. For this reason alone, it is highly doubtful that technological birth control will be popular amongst those who have squatter and homeless lifestyles in the barrens, which are the ones whom we are concerned with. They won't plan to have kids, but they won't plan not to have kids, either. It'll just happen. And they'll find a way to survive. They'll scrape by, somehow, but They'll just barely scrape. That won't change no matter how many children they have. It is a self-perpetuating cycle that feeds social stratification and ensures that the underclass grows faster than the aristocracy.
Well knasser, I agree with everything you said in your last post to one extint or another except that I don't agree that popping into a clinic and saying, 'Two please.' would be cheap and easy enough that your average poor Ork/Human/ect would be able to afford it.
And since we disagree on that, even if we figure that no unplanned pregnancies ever happen for the sake of discussion, the Orks will still grow faster then the other meta-human races.
*Edit*
Clarified a thought.
And since we disagree on that, even if we figure that no unplanned pregnancies ever happen for the sake of discussion, the Orks will still grow faster then the other meta-human races.
*Edit*
Clarified a thought.
| QUOTE (Ravor @ Mar 17 2007, 03:51 PM) |
| Well knasser, I agree with everything you said in your last post to one extint or another except that I don't agree that popping into a clinic and saying, 'Two please.' would be cheap and easy enough that your average poor Ork/Human/ect would be able to afford it. |
Well I guess we can agree to disagree. I would only pursue an argument if I felt that the disagreement came from a lack of understanding. And you obviously get what I'm saying, it's just that I'm wrong.
And I guess that convenient, safe birth control does run counter to the dark chaos that teems under each metropolis waiting to engulf it in a rising tide of crime, poverty and violence.
Okay - lots of squaling ork babies, it is then.
*k heads off to argue about Materialisation vs. Possession again*
All in all it is quite the interesting debate. It brings up another sort of interesting point. It is clearly stated that ghouls, orks, trolls, and those effected by radiation are shunned...but what about the humans left to rot in the barrens? I say humans specifically because its a question of if groups like humanis would try to bring them up in an effort to show its only the "lowly trog scum" that stays in the barrens, or are the forgotten about/ignored too. I mean, I realize its a dystopian society, but none the less the question is interesting to me.
knasser, I wouldn't say that you're wrong, just that we have different visions of Shadowrun.
Well Fezig, personally I'd say that unless the human in question had something to offer then he'd stay in the barrens, because as far as Humanis is concerned, he can be a useful tool once they explain to him that it is the Trogs and Daisy Eaters fault that he can't find a decent job or a place in society.
After all, its easier to whip up the downtrodden and uneducated to violence then it is someone that actually has something to lose.
Well Fezig, personally I'd say that unless the human in question had something to offer then he'd stay in the barrens, because as far as Humanis is concerned, he can be a useful tool once they explain to him that it is the Trogs and Daisy Eaters fault that he can't find a decent job or a place in society.
After all, its easier to whip up the downtrodden and uneducated to violence then it is someone that actually has something to lose.
Don't neglect the cultural impact on this either. One, planned pregnancy for an ork couple pretty much necessitates artificial insemination to get the number of desired children, and even in 2070 that seems pretty white collar to me. Two, the Sixties were a very Orky time, where it was cool to embrace your inner Orkiness, teach your kids Or'zet and all that crap. Raising litters (as nature intended) could be something that went hand in hand with this movement.
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