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JanessaVR
Some thoughts on the original wave of Goblinization. Are there any detailed accounts of this time (in a sourcebook somewhere) and who was struck by it across society, demographic-wise? As some members of my group have pointed out, if it really was 10% – evenly across the board demographically – then why is there any real prejudice against them? With that high of a percentage, it’s almost certain that every family has someone who Goblinized – and could not be certain that they suddenly wouldn’t as well. This would tend to negate prejudice for it’s victims. In contrast, if it was only the “underclass” who Goblinized, then THAT would certainly generate social prejudice against them.

Your thoughts?
Demerzel
You've got a lot of faith in parental love.

If 10% of all children at adolescence turned into orks and trolls I have little doubt that many people's families would disown them. Treat it as a disease that needed curing, etc.

Consider the number of families who have a member who is gay, and the intollerance they still face from family. Then amplify that to something so hideous as turning into a big ugly troll (who may still be gay nyahnyah.gif)!
Moon-Hawk
I think you're looking at prejudice entirely too rationally; prejudice is anything but rational.
Homosexuality (for example) occurs pretty evenly across demographics, even if it is treated differently in different demographics. Virtually everyone has friends or relatives who are, and yet there is still prejudice.
The difference is there are no closet-case Trolls.

edit: Wow. Demerzel and I posted at the same time and both talked about gays and trolls. Oh, I should mention that when I say there are no closet-case Trolls, I mean Trolls who pretend that they are not Trolls. There may certainly be Trolls who pretend that they are not gay. wink.gif
JanessaVR
Hmmm...that's one way of looking at it, I suppose. Although most homophobes still think of being gay as a "lifestyle choice," not as an inherent condition. I'm gay and my family's pretty supportive - my Mom rather likes my GF, even. But Goblinization - pretty obviously something you're not responsible for.
2bit
Pretty sure the demographics were across the board.
I think the prejudice comes from the natural fear they inspire with their size and appearance. There may also be something in there about madness. The transformation is violent, painful, and mind-altering. Not everyone survived it.
Later, it becomes social. Orks and trolls naturally end up in the lower classes. Let's face it, theyre naturally suited for labor and violence, not etiquette and creative problem solving.
JanessaVR
Also - as I understand it - this also impacted adults. Suddenly - your *spouse* or your adult sibling suddenly mutates into something else. You could be completely childless and *still* have to deal with this.
Thane36425
I think the prejudice stems from the "unnaturalness" of all these people suddenly turning into things that don't fit the human mold.

Appearance also plays a factor. The older SR material would talk about elves being fauned over, dwarves being considered cute because of their beards and small size. On the other hand, orcs and trolls were seen as dangerous because they are big and scary looking, what with the big teeth, horns and all that. Orcs and trolls look less human than dwarves or elves, and they are big, so they get worse treatment beause people are more afraid of them.

The social aspect does also come into play, as 2bit mentions. Elves and dwarves can be a smart as humans, but orcs and trolls not so much. They are also big and strong which naturally would make them seem more suited for manual labor. That's not always true, of course. You could have a troll smarter than most people and a dumb as a post elf. There is no reason an elf with average stats couldn't be found on a work site either or an orc with average mental stats in an office.

As for families having people who Goblinized: every family has people the others shun as it is. Maybe creepy uncle Leon wouldn't seem so bad if cousin Bob suddenly turned into an 8 foot tall monster complete with horns. I can see there being a lot of shame and embarassment, especially toward orcs and trolls. Elves and dwarves would probably have less trouble though.
Thane36425
QUOTE (JanessaVR)
Also - as I understand it - this also impacted adults. Suddenly - your *spouse* or your adult sibling suddenly mutates into something else. You could be completely childless and *still* have to deal with this.

That's right. It was 10% of everyone, not just kids. That would probably be really rough, not knowing if the people you saw in the morning would still be "human" when you came home in the evening, or if you yourself would still be human.
Backgammon
QUOTE (JanessaVR)
But Goblinization - pretty obviously something you're not responsible for.

Actually, no. In Japan, turning into a metahuman was seen as something you deserved - you were unclean, you'd done bad things in your life, it's retribution, etc.

In strongly conservative areas - exactly the type of people you'd expect not to accept their goblinized children - it might very well be seen as an affliction from God for your sins.

Also, in the beginning, a lot of people thought goblinization was a disease, quite probably contagious, that you didn't want to catch. So if you did get it, you'd proably been around them dirty trolls, so you deserved it.
2bit
QUOTE
That's not always true, of course. You could have a troll smarter than most people and a dumb as a post elf. There is no reason an elf with average stats couldn't be found on a work site either or an orc with average mental stats in an office.

Their speech is also different than the other races because of the structure of the mouth. That may or may not be part of the - CHA they suffer.

And orks breed like friggin' dogs.
nathanross
I don't think that goblinization occurred equally across all social demographics. I remember reading (don't remember the exact book ref.) that orcs and trolls genes tend to express themselves more prominently in the lower class of society, while elves and dwarves tend to express in wealthier tier of society. Of course, as mentioned by posts in that section, it could be due to other factors such as abortion of the unwanted child, or any number of other causes besides nutrition.

I think it was SOTA: 2063, the section about Gene Tech. Ill post some quotes when I get home.
knasser
QUOTE (2bit)

And orks breed like friggin' dogs.


Even today's birth control would make natural tendancies toward child numbers irrelevant. In 2070, I'd expect both increased technology and increased social acceptance of it to limit the number of children to exactly the number that the parent wanted. In fact, I would go as far as saying that having children likely requires a conscious decision in 2070.

Both human and ork women will have precisely as many children as they want. So this is irrelevant outside of some disaster that required massive and urgent re-population.
2bit
And how does the fact that they're the most populous metatype (despite a shorter lifespan) support that conclusion?
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (2bit)
And how does the fact that they're the most populous metatype (despite a shorter lifespan) support that conclusion?

They're Catholic?
Thane36425
QUOTE (2bit)

Their speech is also different than the other races because of the structure of the mouth. That may or may not be part of the - CHA they suffer.

And orks breed like friggin' dogs.

That's a good point. The wrong accent in the wrong place can get you looked down on no matter how smart and educated you are. By the same token, speech impediments are seen as either amusing or a sign of stupidity.

Here is a link that discusses the difference in population growth in social classes, in a humorous way of course. You could compare it to Elves vs. Orcs.

Why idiots will take over.

Moon-Hawk
"Orks" dammit!
One of the early warning signs of D20 cancer in your brain is spelling it "Orc", unless or course you're talking about the Ork Rights Coalition.
You might want to get that checked.
nathanross
Kay, Im too lazy to look up the books and pages now. But on the whole Ork population thing, I dont really get it.

Besides the prejudice and employment problems that orks and trolls face in modern society, I really dont buy the published fluff that all metatypes are equal, or that they would all act the same.

Even if Orks are fully developed at 12 (Dont have any reference for this, just told this by another player), They only have a good 30 years before death, and I dont think all of it is spent in the prime. Trolls on the other hand, will live on average 20 more years than Orks, while Humans even more. Dwarves also have a late age of average mortality (though it has not yet been reached in the sixth world).

I leave elves seperate from this because they are seperate, in many, many ways from the rules of natural life and death obeyed by the other metatypes. Sure, they can be shot, but if most elves grow up at least middle class they have a very high probability of surviving environmental factors. Now assuming they dont reproduce (and why would you delivery when you have hundreds of years to choose), If the other metatypes keep producing elves and the rest of the elves never die, I can see an elf overpopulation problem occuring within the next 100 years and it will be quite substantial long before that.

Orks, on the other hand, reproduce like rabits because, just like animals they have have a very short stint on this earth and only a very short time to shine. I dont even think for them it is a conscious decision, but more of a genetic imperative (BREED!). I know if I knew I only had some 10 years on the market, Id be pushing my wares.

I think Dwarves and Trolls probably follow a more human cycle.

Anyways, shows over, Im tired.
mfb
QUOTE (knasser)
Even today's birth control would make natural tendancies toward child numbers irrelevant. In 2070, I'd expect both increased technology and increased social acceptance of it to limit the number of children to exactly the number that the parent wanted. In fact, I would go as far as saying that having children likely requires a conscious decision in 2070.

Both human and ork women will have precisely as many children as they want. So this is irrelevant outside of some disaster that required massive and urgent re-population.

i'll grant that even dirt-poor types can afford condoms, and that condoms are probably of greatly increased reliability. however, social and other factors make the use of condoms and other birth control methods much less common than their availability would suggest. i try not to make sweeping generalizations, but the trend seems to be that poor people in the US--where various birth control methods can be easily attained by just about anyone, regardless of their financial state--tend to have more kids than more well-off families. (i'm not a sociologist, so if anyone cares to refute that, i'll gladly listen.) there doesn't seem to be a compelling reason why this trend wouldn't be passed on to orks, who tend to be poorer than, say, humans or elves or even dwarves.
WhiskeyMac
The reason elves were disproportionally born into upper middle class and higher was because of abortions. The Tir na nOg sourcebook talks about how the nobles would kill off the disfigured dwarf babies and keep the beautiful elf babies. God forbid if a blue blood gave birth to an ork or troll, or a noble goblinized. Explains why Ireland is overrun with Nazi Mage Immortal Elves. I usually just ignore the breed like rabbits and very reduced age limits for Orks and various other "What the F***" explanations in Shadowrun. Keeps my head on straight.
mfb
well, that would actually just make orks and trolls disproporionately lower-class, relative to the rest of the metatypes; elves and dwarves would only be disproportionately middle- and upper-class in comparison to orks and trolls. compared to metahumanity as a whole, elves and dwarves would be evenly spread out.
fistandantilus4.0
QUOTE
I don't think that goblinization occurred equally across all social demographics. I remember reading (don't remember the exact book ref.) that orcs and trolls genes tend to express themselves more prominently in the lower class of society, while elves and dwarves tend to express in wealthier tier of society. Of course, as mentioned by posts in that section, it could be due to other factors such as abortion of the unwanted child, or any number of other causes besides nutrition.


If you're talking about the section I think you are , that was commented on later to have been faulty/manipulated research from a Humanis researcher for propaganda purposes. People all over were goblinizing. Didn't matter your social strata, just like magic. A lot of "pillow death" would go a long way to skewing the records however. Later on, orks being pushed down because of prejudice, combined with thier hgh birth rate, already in lower class situations, is a bit of self fulfilling prophecy.

A really good book about all of this, and a very old one, is the book Changeling. It's about a very intelligent young man very a rich family who goblinizes into a troll in the '50's. Admittedly it;s not the biggest page turner, but I strongly recommend it for anyone trying to get a better feel for the SR world and how it turns.
knasser
QUOTE (mfb)
QUOTE (knasser)
Even today's birth control would make natural tendancies toward child numbers irrelevant. In 2070, I'd expect both increased technology and increased social acceptance of it to limit the number of children to exactly the number that the parent wanted. In fact, I would go as far as saying that having children likely requires a conscious decision in 2070.

Both human and ork women will have precisely as many children as they want. So this is irrelevant outside of some disaster that required massive and urgent re-population.

i'll grant that even dirt-poor types can afford condoms, and that condoms are probably of greatly increased reliability. however, social and other factors make the use of condoms and other birth control methods much less common than their availability would suggest. i try not to make sweeping generalizations, but the trend seems to be that poor people in the US--where various birth control methods can be easily attained by just about anyone, regardless of their financial state--tend to have more kids than more well-off families. (i'm not a sociologist, so if anyone cares to refute that, i'll gladly listen.) there doesn't seem to be a compelling reason why this trend wouldn't be passed on to orks, who tend to be poorer than, say, humans or elves or even dwarves.


You'll note that I said birth control and not condoms. We have a male contraceptive pill and a male contraceptive injection passing through clinical trials at the moment. I think they'll be available next year, let alone in 2070. You'll also note that I specifically mentioned that by 2070, social acceptance of birth control is likely to be far more universal than it is today. Particularly for the more intrusive methods. I could see parents getting their kids an implant the moment they hit puberty, just as a standard precaution against teenage fatherhood / motherhood. They wouldn't think anything about it.

You noted that social factors are what affect number of children in human society today. THAT is my point. There's no reason for Orks to have more children than humans. Poor orks more than rich humans. Poor humans more than rich orks.
WhiskeyMac
When are they going to bring in the Mr. Stud implant to SR RAW? "Go all night, and she won't even know!"
bibliophile20
QUOTE (WhiskeyMac)
When are they going to bring in the Mr. Stud implant to SR RAW? "Go all night, and she won't even know!"

There's actually a hint of that in the Runner Havens; excuse me while I pull out the pdf

From the "Superstition" subsection of the Hong Kong portion, page 8:
QUOTE
I once heard that a Chinese oligarch in Hong Kong paid hundreds
of thousands of nuyen for a small pouch of powder made
from the dried genitals of an adult dragon. Rumor has it he was
going to mix it with his morning tea to help his “performance
problems” with the mistresses. He’d dismissed countless proven
pharmaceutical or cybernetic cures for his problem but didn’t
think twice about dropping a small fortune for this tiny pouch
of dragon dust. Given the source of the dust, though, I have to
wonder if the poachers ever got to enjoy their money.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (knasser)
There's no reason for Orks to have more children than humans.

Actually, there is - orks have a tendency towards multiples.
Pyritefoolsgold
Yeah, it's not that they have a lot of sex, it's that when they do have kids, they have litters.
knasser
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Mar 15 2007, 07:39 AM)
QUOTE (knasser @ Mar 15 2007, 09:13 AM)
There's no reason for Orks to have more children than humans.

Actually, there is - orks have a tendency towards multiples.


Way to edit out the first six lines of my post. Put the "given the prevalence and undoubted sophistication and dirt-cheapness of birth control in 2070," back in the start of that sentance, would you? If you think that Mrs. (or Mr.) Ork deliberately decides to have a children, and then accidentally has six or seven, then we're very much in disagreement about the level and prevalence on SR2070 tech.

And I feel that extrapolating from cannon material and published tech and prices, that my view of SR2070 tech is more supportable. IMO, of course.

-K.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (knasser)
If you think that Mrs. (or Mr.) Ork deliberately decides to have a children, and then accidentally has six or seven, then we're very much in disagreement about the level and prevalence on SR2070 tech.

Obviously.
While there is tech to control cell division, it isn't exactly cheap.
The other options are partial abortion and infanticide.

And no, a fast-growing ork population is still canon.
eidolon
QUOTE (JanessaVR @ Mar 14 2007, 12:31 PM)
But Goblinization - pretty obviously something you're not responsible for.

And I'd like to think that anyone with half a brain knows the same thing about homosexuality. That doesn't mean it's true. Any scan through TV channels or the lower end of the FM band uncovers droves of people that, while may be quite 'intelligent' otherwise, still think that being gay is the devvvvvvvyl's work. *sigh*

In SR canon, the same kind of social prejudice is applied to metahumanity. No matter how worldly or intelligent a person, society says it's "okay" to hate Trolls (and if it doesn't actively support it, it actively condones it; much the way that gay bashing is actively condoned by today's American society).

And don't get me started on the "Orks have short lives and breed in litters" nonsense. I'm just waiting for the day that the SR community collectively realizes that it's just as idiotic as when Elves were all vegetarians by canon.
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (eidolon)
QUOTE (JanessaVR @ Mar 14 2007, 12:31 PM)
But Goblinization - pretty obviously something you're not responsible for.

And I'd like to think that anyone with half a brain knows the same thing about homosexuality. That doesn't mean it's true. Any scan through TV channels or the lower end of the FM band uncovers droves of people that, while may be quite 'intelligent' otherwise, still think that being gay is the devvvvvvvyl's work. *sigh*

Just the other day I heard someone actually claim that they could come down with a case of "gay" through osmosis or some such nonsense.

It seems to be human nature to divide ourselves up into groups. Perhaps it has something to do with the importance of our sense of "self" that we require, absolutely require, a sense of "other". We need to somehow divide ourselves into "us" and "them". And the only time a "them" group is accepted into an "us" group is when the "us" group finds a new "them", and not before.
If there are no good lines for us to divide ourselves up with, then we invent one. I believe SR goes along with this to a degree, in that it mentions that prejudices due to things like ethnicity and sexuality are largely things of the past. To paraphrase, "Why worry about that tanned looking fellow when that thing has hands the size of your head?" In SR people don't have to hate the homosexuals or the <fill in your favorite ethnicity> They have metas and magicians to hate, and they're much more obvious targets.
Mistwalker
But it is a shame that we cannot define ourselfs, or group in a positive manner.

Most start off that way, I am Canadian, I am America, etc.., but then often spirals down into negativity when saying what we are not.

I am xxxxxx, and not an evil imperialistic fearmongering yyyyyyy.

Should have stopped at xxxxxxx, but for most, we don't

Shakes his head.
2bit
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)
It seems to be human nature to divide ourselves up into groups. Perhaps it has something to do with the importance of our sense of "self" that we require, absolutely require, a sense of "other". We need to somehow divide ourselves into "us" and "them". And the only time a "them" group is accepted into an "us" group is when the "us" group finds a new "them", and not before.

I'm glad someone else feels this way - I've always said there will be no peace on earth until we discover intelligent alien life smile.gif Categorizing is central to the way human beings view the world. We see life only through contrast - that's a truism applicable to all aspects of the human condition. It's only possible to know one thing by comparing it to another.
Ravor
QUOTE (knasser)
Way to edit out the first six lines of my post. Put the "given the prevalence and undoubted sophistication and dirt-cheapness of birth control in 2070," back in the start of that sentance, would you? If you think that Mrs. (or Mr.) Ork deliberately decides to have a children, and then accidentally has six or seven, then we're very much in disagreement about the level and prevalence on SR2070 tech.

And I feel that extrapolating from cannon material and published tech and prices, that my view of SR2070 tech is more supportable. IMO, of course.

-K.


Well personally the way I see it is that yes, high tech gene treatments to keep all but one egg that the Ork female had dropped from fertiziling, partial abortions and the like do exist, and are probably heavily used by the middle class + Orks, but the more typical lower class Ork simply doesn't have the cred to pay for them.

This way the Orkish race's doomed existance is self-fullfilling. Not only do the poor and hick Orks choose to get "preggers" more often the the middle class Orks, when they do so the poor Orks give birth to litters because the only relable options that they can afford would kill all of their babies, while the middle class Orks only keep whatever number they want.

And of course, because of racism, more Orks are poor then not.
Backgammon
QUOTE (eidolon)
And don't get me started on the "Orks have short lives and breed in litters" nonsense. I'm just waiting for the day that the SR community collectively realizes that it's just as idiotic as when Elves were all vegetarians by canon.

Why is that? Why shouldn't Orks have shorter lifespans and have multiple babies at once?
Hida Tsuzua
I personally am not a fan of the huge variations of lifespan in cannon SR. Combined with attribute mods shows that regards to ork and trolls, Humanis is right. Orks and trolls are dumb short lived brutes. The insane lifespan of elves (combined with the vague "metabolic studies") reminds me of immortal elves and the less said about them the better.

As for ork prejudice, not accounting for the INT and CHA modifiers, it would exist. As said before, there are pretty of ways to think as your fellow man as "other." However, I'm not sure it would be as widespread or as deep as portrayed in canon. The major reason is the random nature of goblinization. For everyone who thinks "my brother is no longer human since he's an ork" there would be one who thinks "my brother is my brother."

As for the homosexual allusion, I'm uncertain how apt it is. Firstly, one can hide homosexuality (the proverbial "coming out of the closet"), it's much harder to do so with being an ork. Also there is the viewpoint that homosexuality is a "choice." That's a lot harder to argue with a worldwide change.

Now there certainly can be prejudice. I still would think it's more of the bias against the handicap or dwarfism than racial prejudice. Awkwardness and the thought that of it as "condition that you couldn't control" but nothing like "no orks allowed." This is especially apt since becoming an ork or troll leads to intelligence and charisma loss.
eidolon
QUOTE (Backgammon)
Why is that? Why shouldn't Orks have shorter lifespans and have multiple babies at once?

Why? Why should Orks have shorter lifespans and have multiple babies at once?

Why should Elves be vegetarians?

IMO, the only reason these situations were ever written into the game so that a gaming population used to the Orcs, Trolls, Elves, etc of D&D and mythology would be a little more accepting of the races in SR, and cynically, because people wouldn't want to see "new" ideas, they want familiar. I don't think it was necessary then, and I certainly don't think it's necessary now. SR doesn't have to be silly to be different and interesting. The SR of today (okay, of a few years back, SR3) has come a long way from the "elves are called dandelion eaters because they're actually vegetarians and can't eat meat" days. Other parts are just taking a while to catch up.
Fezig
As far as Orcs and Trolls birth rates and life span goes, one of those is a very simple answer. The shorter life spans make sense because it is fairly well established that taller, bigger people live shorter lives. Andre the Giant, and many other humans 7 feet tall and taller live shorter due to the amount of extra stress on the body. It takes more effort for the body to pump the blood around and it stresses the organs more, and also the bones are weakened by all the weight and gravity weighing down on it all the time.

As for reproduction rate...thats probably just a flavor thing. It could be a matter of social class and the link to the fact that the lower social classes reproduce more often, along with the possibility that it is a racial bias and isn't true. The same is or used to be said about certain racial groups in the USA (Irish, Latino, Asian) despite it only being true with specific case studies, and in said situation it can be said about all groups. I mean with the Irish it was Irish Catholics, which was a heck of a big subsection, but a subsection none the less.
lorechaser
QUOTE (nathanross)
have hundreds of years to choose), If the other metatypes keep producing elves and the rest of the elves never die, I can see an elf overpopulation problem occuring within the next 100 years and it will be quite substantial long before that.

>>>>>[Doin' every damn thing to fix that I can, chummer]<<<<<
-Crorker <10:03:02/11-23-70>
Pyritefoolsgold
You also have to remember that shadowrun's atmosphere is very dark, that people do not unite and come together, that there have been so many disasters and global upsets that everyone is afraid. One big thing keeping the orcs and trolls down is that the corps don't like them. Orcs and trolls give corps a bad image. So Orcs and Trolls can't get into corp jobs, they can't make money, certain groups despise them, a lot of people think they are stupid useless brutes, and this all causes them to become poor.
A lot of people defend trolls and orcs on the surface, but wouldn't give one a job or approve of their daughter marrying one.
Ravor
Well Hida Tsuzua personally I kind-of like the idea that Humanis has some valid points instead of being nothing more then 2D cut-outs of the bigots of the past, spewing empty hatard.
fistandantilus4.0
QUOTE (eidolon)
QUOTE (Backgammon @ Mar 15 2007, 09:22 AM)
Why is that? Why shouldn't Orks have shorter lifespans and have multiple babies at once?

Why? Why should Orks have shorter lifespans and have multiple babies at once?

Why should Elves be vegetarians?

As another reason to back it up, the ork reproduction rate and shorter life span was also true in ED, as was the troll life cycle. The Elves were never vegetarians there. So that's an awful lot to retcon. And animals with shorter life spans tend to have more off spring, so one goes in hand with the other.
Cang
I got into Shadowrun for the sole reason that it adds some shade of realism to something i enjoy, fantasy. Things like alignment, mages spewing spells until they "forget" them all, xp for murder and everyone is the hero of the world always drove me crazy. Shadowrun doesn’t have cookie cutter classes and races and the more they stay away from that, the better. Stereotypes are fine but to have cannon back it up is silly. Its like if you made a Asian character, he will have +2 to intelligence because the stereotype is that they are smart. I don't mind that orcs live shorter then humans or that elves live longer, but to have elves living for hundreds of years is silly. The issue of orc litters i think is the wording. If they said orcs have two or three children at once is fine, but to say they have litters like a pig is just wrong.

One thing i really hate is when cannon undermine something real and very human for something fantastic to make you go "oh WOW". Stuff like EIs were every famous person in history and dragons control the world just make me mad. I don’t mind some of histories players have been EI or dragons are big movers and shakers (no pun intended) but to have some sort of absolute is just silly.

So thinks like all elves living forever or mages all wearing neon runes on their robes makes the game less then more. That’s my crazy, erratic and unintelligible 2 cents.
Fezig
I don't know what that post has to do with the thread Cang, but here here. I would agree with you on your points.
Cang
i added something about orcs and their children so i wouldnt sound so much like the crazy old man that i am. smile.gif
Fezig
Hahaha. Good call, way to slip in a valid point nyahnyah.gif
fistandantilus4.0
IIRC , orks tend to have a higher tendancy of having multiple children. Which doesn't exactly neccesitate actual litters (like 5+). That's something more like Humanis talk. BUt they do tend to have more. Maybe if someone could get us page quotes, say from SOTA 64?
Fragmintz
Can't we all just get along?
Hida Tsuzua
QUOTE (Ravor)
Well Hida Tsuzua personally I kind-of like the idea that Humanis has some valid points instead of being nothing more then 2D cut-outs of the bigots of the past, spewing empty hatard.

It's an interesting spin I agree and what I'll do if I keep mental modifiers for metahumans during my admittedly slow reworking of Shadowrun.

However it's something that to my knowledge never supported in the books especially if you look at First to Third edition books. They are 2D cutouts pure and simple. The fact they're right is something that isn't intended and comes off wrong. It's similar to realizing that the Evil Overlord is really what's best for the world and the heroes are dooming it. What's being told and shown doesn't match, causing a disconnect and showing the lack of thought in the story/setting.
Cang
here what SR4 says

QUOTE
Likely due to their high birth rates, orks oft en live in large, communal, extended family groups. Children are most oft en born in litters of four, but some ork mothers have given birth to as many as eight young. When sapiens are born to ork mothers, they will express as robustus at puberty roughly 95% of the time. Ork gestation periods are the shortest of any of the metatypes at roughly 6 months.


I looked over SOTA 64 and didnt see much other then ork language and pop scene.
Ravor
Well, I suppose different tastes for different people, because I've always been rather fond of the idea that the 'Evil Overlord' despite being a complete bastard and a tyrant actually was doing what was best for everyone, and that once over-thrown the heroes find that they need to pick up the slack, will they become what they've hated and fought against for so long or will they doom the world to something far worse? Or will they actually manage to find a third option in time?
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