I have I think 4 characters right now and not one of them has a laser sight. Does anyone even use laser sights? I mean they give +1 instead of the +2 from smartlinks and I guess they can be combined with tracer rounds in automatic weapons but that seems to be the only thing going for it. Smartlinks allow faster reloading, and firing around corners mostly. I guess there can be other creative uses but very little is comming to mind.

Lasers are +100 and can be switched between weapons. Smartlink is +500/+1000 for goggles/cybereyes to go along with the image links that anyone with a commlink has and +400 each weapon.

So, how many of you actually use laser sights on a regular basis and why?

adepts who would not burn magic for the smartlink? - ok, they could manage with goggles or so, but I have a player in my group who chose the manhunter with laser sights and has not complained.

The other characters who play with that adept all have smartlinks, so the odds are not good for the laser sight I guess.

cheers,

max

Although none of my players use a laser sight over a smartlink, you forgot to mention something else that laser sights can do that smartlinks can't...

You get that +1 bonus from using a laser sight just by picking up your weapon, you don't have to worry about sneaking any extra devices past security and your buddy will get that same +1 bonus if you need to loan him your gun in the middle of a fire-fight for whatever reason. (Maybe he fell victim to my second example.)

Also a laser sight can NEVER be hacked, although I've always been a big surporter of setting up seperate PANs and using skinlink/DNI as being the 'default' set-ups for both runners and corp sec-guards despite what RAW tries to tell me, even using my set-ups, it is possible for a Decker to make your smart-linked gun discharge while still in your holster while ejecting your clip and deciding to 'field strip' iteself. (Ok, maybe not the last one, but then again I'm not so sure that it isn't possible.)

corporations, gangers, people on low budgets.

Also, once the appropriate supplements are released your laser sight can serve as a target designator for your rigger's cruise missiles.

I have a player who's char refuses to use smartlinks. They don"t like the hackability, nor leaving any kind of electronic trail while working.

In my world, Corp Security and Corps like Lone Star use lasers all the time.
Intimidation, when the target suddenly sees a light show on his chest.
PR, the public sees that the corp took the situation seriously, tried to dissuade the perp before they filled them with holes

People with Simsense Vertigo

Oftentimes I find I tun silent, deactivating the wireless functions of my gear to avoid being picked up by a stray hacker. When that happens the smartlink goes off and the laser sight goes on.

Hackers can be ignored with a skinlinks. I'm not worried about that. Just have a PAN commlink with 0 signal and a skin link with a skin link on your goggles and gun gives you a self contained smartgun system.

Red dots would have a way of letting someone know they can die soon. That and the sound of an action. Though I think I would rule that the action is just a part of the existing intimidate. Red dots are extra.

Laser sights are a holdover from SR3, where you could jack a Smartgunlink directly into you for a -2 TN, or use the goggles for the -1, and feck it, if you were going to only get a -1 anyway (you know, anyone who's a mage or an adept), you might as well get the cheaper laser sight.

Plus, long-range laser sights eventually gave you a better chance on long-distance sniping tests than a smartgunlink.

My char has both. Laser when he doesn't wear his goggles, with goggles he uses smartlink.

Despite what's listed in books, you'd likely find far more red-dot sights than laser sights in the world of Shadowrun. Having used both IRL, the red-dots are tons better than the lasers. The batteries last longer, smoke/rain/mist don't make them useless, they work just fine on a bright summer day, they don't act like a visual beacon to your enemies, and they don't have the same range issues as laser sights.

Mechanically, they would probably give the same bonus. Most of my characters, and those of my players, choose red-dots over laser signts every time.



Read for yourself

Real nice, Hullbreach!

I like the extra rules tidbit about the bonus dice from a take aim action.

My only complaint about red dot sites has to do with pistols. Most become "unholsterable" with modern day red-dots. I would guess that the holster issue would be resolved by 2070s. The SR equivilents would probably use the same sort of holo-tech that the common trideo set uses. I would image a sort of free-floating holographic image that sits just above the weapon. The emitter would likely be pretty tiny, and could fit easily on a standard picatinny rail.

BTW, have they ever gotten around to teaching marines how not to piss all over their hands when going to the latrine? (old Army joke)

Keep in mind that laser sights are also a lot more legal. In an area with a heavy Lone Star presence it's a lot easier to talk your way out of having a pistol with a laser sight then a pistol with a smart link.

One says your a goody-goody corper who carries a gun for protection and can't shot it well so you need a little help, the other says your a trained professional with the gear to kill.

but with laser sights you can use it as a pointer for your power-point presentations.

"I didn't mean to shot him, I was just pointing him out to my friends and the gun went off, honest!"

I continue to maintain that Red Eye sites are actually the techological forebearers of smartgun links, thus you won't find them anymore, while Laser dots are a seperate branch that hasn't really grown any more, but is still around.

That's my take, and I'm sticking too it.

my mage uses a laser, my logic being he only has a pistols skill of two and probably never took the time to figure out the ins and outs of how to properly use a smartlink.

TheOneRonin: The trouble with the Red Dot or Aimpoint sights is that they are going to be big and awkward, especially on low profile weapons like pistols and SMGs that most shadowrunners should be using. (sorry Hull, I agree that rifles are the proper weapon for the battlefield, but for a Shadowrun?). The only way to overcome this is to feed the 'red dot' to a goggle or through cyberwear...


... at which point you have just recreated the smartlink without the bells and whistles (dropping mags, changing rates of fire, etc).

With a 'projection laser' there is no need to send feedback to the user's eye, the projected dot does it automatically.

that's actually not a joke. if you read "Not a Good Day to Die" an assembled account of Operation Anaconda, there's a special forces guy who does that for his briefings. it's not a major thing, but it's mentioned a few times.

Well, I know in SR3 Laser Sights in my group were used because the two mages (Eight man group) would quicken/anchor Extended Enhanced Aim, which has a pretty good range. The only time the combo didn't work is when sniping, and lets face it 90% of runs are usualy urban and that means close quarters combat.

Donno if Enhanced Aim is in SR4, but I if you're going for the 'red laser on my heart!' effect, just buy a underbarrel laser pen mount for 10Y

Oh working the action would eject a round, but "informing" the guy your pointing a gun at that your gun is loaded might add flavor to one of those 3 hits.

On the topic of intimidating sounds, my character wants a mini stereo good enough to convincingly play a sound chip of a minigun spooling up to operating speed.

Attaching laser sights to a bunch of small drones can be a nice intimidation factor on a dark night.

Economics, legality, and availability, by and large.

For example, when playing Wakshaani 320, the availability cap is 8. A pair of goggles with image link, lowlight vision, and flare compensation is at Availability 6, leaving no room for a Smartlink. You could take a vision enhancement off, true, but the rest of the team might have problems with that. You could overlay contacts, but there's issues with benig stopped by the Star and having to produce information on why you have such a high tech gizmo when you're posing as, say, a janitor.

Lasers are gobs cheaper, so work better for the average security guard, street ganger, or organized crime soldier. You're just going to get questioned a lot less by the Star if you're picked up with a Fichetti Security 600 than if you've got an Arex IV and Smartlinked eyes. One's a fairly common personal protection weapon, the other's a friggin' handcannon.

Lastly, there's the raw education factor. If you're from the Zero Zone of Philly, can't read, don't know AR and, in general, are wallowing in your Uneducated (Or Simsense Vertigo) flaw, a laser is simple ... pull a trigger, light paints a target, which you then shoot. Smartguns just make your head hurt.

Ok just read this Topic and I have only 2 points to make.

1. Smartlinks can be Hacked by a good Hacker. Making them useless and Possibly even a negative if he starts feeding you weird Data. So your great +2 dice can become a -2 or even -3 quick. Laser Sights point the light at the Target.

2. Laser Sights are Legal and not Restricted. So you Put a Laser Sight on a Defiance Shocker its perfectly legal and its 8S(e) with only half Impact armor for resistance.... say good night, and when the Star Questions you, "He attacked me Officer I was defending Myself".


It happened in a game of mine. The players were all packing heat and Restricted weapons. The bad guy had a Shocker with a Laser Sight. When the Star star showed up one Players was Unc. and the others had fled. They were shocked when the bad guy didn't run as the Star Approached. he held up his hands and told them he had been attacked, he gave a description of the Runners and went about his business. They were pissed.

Remember Shadowrun is the type of world where you can rape and murder a child in the middle of Lonestar HQ and as long as you have enough bribe money then you are scott free. Provided of course that the child's parents aren't richer or better connected then you are.

Still I agree, without a bribe a Lonestar Grunt won't just look the other way because you used a legal weapon, in fact the bribe to look the other way for murder might even be lower then assualt, less paperwork if the victim can't try to file charges.