Moon-Hawk
Mar 23 2007, 05:03 PM
When astrally perceiving, you take a -2 die penalty to purely physical actions, right?
Is that more of a visibility penalty or more of a distraction penalty? Would the Multitasking adept power allow them to ignore the distraction and function without the penalty?
Or is it actually interfering with their vision, in which case it wouldn't help?
Thanks.
Demerzel
Mar 23 2007, 05:05 PM
It is interefeering with their vision.
Purely physical objects are only shadows, emotional content may obscure shape/size, etc.
Moon-Hawk
Mar 23 2007, 05:10 PM
So what you're saying is, when you use astral perception (which is a purely psychic sense which does not require eyes but is frequently described using a visual metaphor, and this psychic sense can only detect purely physical objects as shadows) actually shuts down the users eyes while they're astrally perceiving?
That seems odd to me. Dual natured creatures don't have to deal with that penalty, do they?
Demerzel
Mar 23 2007, 05:20 PM
It actually shuts down the eyes, you shift your perception from the physical to the astral. Dual natured creatures are so used to seeing this way the penalty is not there.
Moon-Hawk
Mar 23 2007, 06:36 PM
Hmmm, it still seems a bit odd, but taking game balance into consideration I think I'm going to take your interpretation.
Having perception on all the time with no penalty would be pretty huge for a PC.
Thanks.
ornot
Mar 23 2007, 07:35 PM
Astral perception is not linked with physical senses such as sight, hearing (p182). So if you are going to declare that it 'shuts down the eyes' you must also acknowledge that it shuts down the ears too.
I personally feel that astral perception should not be confused with sight (although, to my chagrin, it seems to be described almost exclusively in visual terms), but rather acts as a 6th sense that encompasses aspects of the other 5. Everything that one senses while astrally perceiving is really an astral reflection of what is taking place in the real world (including sounds).
I would attribute the physical action penalty incurred for astrally perceiving to be a consequence of unfamiliarity with the sense rather than any degree of interference. Consider that astral perception must be cultivated, unlike seeing, hearing etc. which are innate since birth. Of course dual natured creatures gain continual astral sight as an innate trait (although the theory does fall down a bit with creatures that become dual natured eg. ghouls).
Demerzel
Mar 23 2007, 08:02 PM
Yes, astral perception shifts your entire perception including sound and touch and everything. You get only astral versions of those. The basis for my belief that you can't see and astrally percieve is that astrally percieving characters can't read. Not just astrally projecting.
Kyoto Kid
Mar 23 2007, 08:29 PM
| QUOTE (Demerzel) |
| It actually shuts down the eyes, you shift your perception from the physical to the astral. Dual natured creatures are so used to seeing this way the penalty is not there. |
...so what about the case of someone who is possessed or channelling? Do they still have the -2 penalty since they are not always perceiving even though they are dual natured?
Demerzel
Mar 23 2007, 08:46 PM
Boy, I feel like I'm getting further and further out on a limb here.
There is a problem with possessed characters and channeling.
Is a channeling mage really astrally percieving? He is astrally active due to the possession, but the spirit is the one perceiving, the mage could possibly be looking out his own eyes, and he's only succeptable to astral space due to the link between the spirit and his body. Perhaps he can choose to be either percieving astrally or not as usual costing a simple action to switch, just always dual natured regardless of perception mode?
I'd say I basically dont' know enough about possession, nor have I considered possession enough. I've mostly avoided it in my game.
Jaid
Mar 23 2007, 09:37 PM
in the case of possession, the spirit is in full control. since astral perception is the spirit's natural method of perceiving the world, no penalty.
as far as someone channelling, i would say that they are stuck in astral perception, but are not natural astral perceivers... and therefore do suffer the penalty.
laughingowl
Mar 23 2007, 10:21 PM
To me it is not soo much as 'shutting' down the eyes, but the human brain needs some way to interrupt the data.
The way most brains find it easiest to interrupt is visual. Thus in the brain it replaces what the meat eyes would see with a visual mapping of what it can sense in the astral.
You 'can' see both, but you are seeing alot of extra stuff you dont normally see.
Dual Natured creatures (and I would possibly allow meta-magic for normal awakened to reach this state) are used to see both sets of information and it confuses / distracts them no more then seeing color does to you (although a Dog would likely find it very confusing).
Peace
Demerzel
Mar 23 2007, 10:23 PM
Coinidentally [and off topic slightly]:
Turns out giving a mouse the ability to see full color dosen't require any fancy brain work:
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?chanID=sa...D5721F0&ref=rss
Ancient History
Mar 23 2007, 11:44 PM
Authors typically use sight because its the easiest metaphor for reading people to grasp, but the information content is completely non-physical and non-dependent on physical senses. If you played a born a blind and deaf full magician with no sense of touch, smell, or taste, they could still use astral perception. English does not currently have the proper words to describe astral perception, because at this point they are not needed.
That said, there is nothing to say that every character interprets or describes their astral experience in the same way. An adept with Improved Sense (Improved Smell) power or a shapeshifter might describe auras and astral signatures as scents or spoor; a magician blind from birth might use sound or music as a common frame of reference. A dwarf or troll might use compare auras to heat patterns they see using their thermographic vision.
TheOOB
Mar 24 2007, 12:14 AM
You gain the penalty on physical actions while your astrally perciving for the same reason you gain a penalty on actions while sustaining a spell. Your concentraition is split between multiple things, in this case acting in the physical world while maintaining a connection to the astral.
Protector152
Mar 24 2007, 03:39 AM
So multitasking would negate the penalty since it lets you focus on multiple things at once? I mean if multitasking can remove the penalty for sustaining spells...
Jaid
Mar 24 2007, 12:01 PM
| QUOTE (Protector152) |
| So multitasking would negate the penalty since it lets you focus on multiple things at once? I mean if multitasking can remove the penalty for sustaining spells... |
nothing about multitasking leads me to believe you wouldn't suffer the penalty from sustaining spells. for something that important, i would expect that they would mention it.
anyways, as far as i can tell, when you are using your astral senses your physical senses are shut down. there's only been one person to disagree with that theory... now if he can provide good solid evidence to back up his point, and the other however many people it is cannot provide evidence for their point, then i could see listening to him in preference to the rest of the people who have discussed this. as it stands, however, he's just got one more opinion in a group of people who have given opinions (at least, i don't believe anyone has produced rules text to support their opinion).
Demerzel
Mar 24 2007, 04:00 PM
Since you asked for a rule:
| QUOTE (p182 Core) |
| It takes a Simple Action to shift one's perspective from the astral to the physical, and another to shift it back again (it is not possible to see both at the same time, though almost everything in physical space is reflected on the astral, albeit without detail). |
I would prefer if they had used the word percieve rather than see where it says it is not possible to see in both. If they had said it was not possible to percieve both at the same time then it would be clear that it extends to all senses.
The key is that it does extend to all senses. Nothing special about sight, so I imagine you'd have to extrapolate that see to mean all senses and assume they just used see because the visual metaphor is so ubiquitous.
hyzmarca
Mar 24 2007, 05:56 PM
Ah, but perceiving the astral plane and using Astral Perception are two different things. Using Astral Perception makes you Dual Natured even if you choose not to percieve the astral plane.
Jaid
Mar 24 2007, 05:58 PM
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| Ah, but perceiving the astral plane and using Astral Perception are two different things. Using Astral Perception makes you Dual Natured even if you choose not to percieve the astral plane. |
could you restate that please? either i'm just sleep deprived, or that statement made no sense at all...
how can you be using astral perception while choosing to not perceive the astral plane?
hyzmarca
Mar 24 2007, 06:14 PM
Using the Astral Perception ability creates an Astral Body for the character, making that character temporarilary dual-natured. In previous editions, this was enough since dual-natured beings were always aware of both planes.
In SR4, however, it is not. A Dual Natured being can only be aware of one plane at a time and must spend a simple action to shift perception.
Therefore, if he hold a strict interpretation of the rules, viewing the astral plane requires two actions, one to activate Astral Perception and another to shift perfeption to the Astral Plane. This interpretation also allows one to remain dual-natured wile viewing the physical plane, which has few, but substantial, advantages. The most obvious is the ability to negate the -2 modifier to physical actions while holding or standing on purely astral constructs. For example, when climbing up an Astral Lader and then shooting at someone through a window, the extra two dice help but you don't want to give up your astral body because doing so will simply make you fall.
Demerzel
Mar 24 2007, 10:00 PM
Dude, where are you getting this from?
The next sentance:
| QUOTE (p182) |
| A character using astral perception is considered dual natured, active on both planes simultaneously. |
Where is there anything that says you have to turn on the power, then shift perceptions? Shifting perceptions IS activating astral perception.
Ravor
Mar 24 2007, 10:42 PM
Also although I could be wrong, I've always been under the impression that while Dual Natured you were limtied to the most restrictive of the two planes, which means that anyone trying to climb an 'astral ladder' would end up flat on his face since there isn't anything in the real world to hold up his meat bod...
hyzmarca
Mar 25 2007, 01:37 AM
The old rules for Astral Constructs stated that they acted just like real object and dual beings could use them just like real objects, meaning that it is possible to climb an astral ladder or sit on an astral chair if it is a construct, untill SR4 rules explicitly say otherwise.
Ravor
Mar 25 2007, 02:05 AM
Hmm, must have been one of the bits that I thought was silly and decided to ignore in Third Edition.
Thanks for the info...
ornot
Mar 25 2007, 02:10 AM
That kind of rule does lead to the ever silly aatrally projecting mage bludgeoning corporeal folk with a dual natured ghoul. Which is rather silly, and not really in keeping with the feel of the game, IMO.
Ravor
Mar 25 2007, 02:33 AM
Especially since Grounding is no longer allowed... (Which for the record is a change that I support.)
hyzmarca
Mar 25 2007, 04:37 AM
Well, Astral Constructs are a specific type of Astral Body. Ghouls aren't Astral Constructs and neither are Projecting Mages; normal Astral Bodies do not behave like Astral Constructs.
The real advantage of the Astral Construct is that Astral Construct guns may exist, although finding bullets for them would be nearly impossible. It is something to give to an NPC, since a PC wielding the weapon would not be able to replinish his amosupply it isn't game breaking.
TheOOB
Mar 25 2007, 04:44 AM
Wouldn't it be possible to make bullets out of a dual natured substance (orchilium comes to mind) and use those to hit astral targets?
Ancient History
Mar 25 2007, 04:55 AM
Well for one, orichalcum isn't dual-natured.
TheOOB
Mar 25 2007, 04:59 AM
Hmmm, I could have sworn it was, anyways, the point remains that if you did make a dual natured bullet that it could in theory hit an astral target even though it was fired from a physical gun.
Ravor
Mar 25 2007, 05:02 AM
Well sure, and I don't think anyone has a problem with that, but the real question is could you fire a dual-natured bullet with an Astral Gun and have it hit a physical target?
hyzmarca
Mar 25 2007, 05:38 AM
| QUOTE (TheOOB) |
| Hmmm, I could have sworn it was, anyways, the point remains that if you did make a dual natured bullet that it could in theory hit an astral target even though it was fired from a physical gun. |
That's really not possible, for various reasons, unless the bullet is an Astral Construct. Astral Constructs are unique because they interact with other Astral Bodies as if both were physical. But a normal dual-natured bullet wouldn't harm an astral being unless it could engage that being in Astral Combat. The Forcing Through rules only apply when both Astral Bodies are anchored to the physical plane and are moved in the physical plane.
And you could fire a dual-naured bullet from an Astral Construct gun only if the percussion cap is dual natured or the whole thing is a materialized Astral Construct.
But going back to the original topic, the issue of only being able to see one plane or the other is complicated by naturally dual beings, whom also have to spend a simple action to switch perception between planes despite the fat that they always exist in both. So the state of having an Astral Body is separate from the state of perceiving the Astral Plane.
We know that dual beings can perceive the physical plane because Ghouls have the Weakness Reduced Senses (Blindness). That wound be a weakness is all dual beings were naturally blind to the physical. The only interpretation is that activating Astral Perception and Shifting Perspective between planes are separate actions.
TheOOB
Mar 25 2007, 06:39 AM
I fail to see why dual natured ammunition wouldn't work aside from it being really hard to make/maintain. You could, in theory lace a bullet with biofiber, and shoot it out of the gun. In astral space biofiber is strong enough to create an astral barrier, so it stands to reason that traveling fast enough it could cause some damage. That said, those bullets would be expensive and have a short shelf life (hard to keep a plant alive in a shell casing).
hyzmarca
Mar 25 2007, 08:19 AM
The issue is that there is no inertia in Astral Space. Just hitting an astral form with a biofiber bullet would, at best, push it back. Weapon foci are unique in that they are extensions of the character in Astral Combat, which is much different from just hitting the target and Weapon Constructs work on the astral plane as if they were weapon foci but they cannot be bound and they do not have to be activated, but no one knows why this is any more than they understand alchera and ghost skyscrapers.
WhiskeyMac
Mar 25 2007, 11:32 PM
What about a biofiber/monowire weave net? Would that cause enough inertia or displace enough space to affect a Spirit or Astral Construct? Would the Spirit still receive their Immunity to Normal Weapons against that net?
TheOOB
Mar 26 2007, 12:02 AM
So if a dual natured bullet hit an astral target the bullet would stop and fall in mid-air?
Da9iel
Mar 26 2007, 01:09 AM
No, it would just harmlessly push the astral target out of the way and keep going. There's nothing to force astral combat. You'd need a biofiber trash compactor like in Star Wars to pull that trick. Even then, chances are good that any decent mage would win that contest.
nathanross
Mar 26 2007, 08:17 PM
What about a spirit possesing a bullet? I really have no idea how that would work, just heard it somewhere.
Demerzel
Mar 26 2007, 09:19 PM
Hummn, would a bullet with immunity to normal weapons have an increased AP since it wouldn't fragment or mushroom as easily?
Jaid
Mar 26 2007, 09:26 PM
| QUOTE (nathanross) |
| What about a spirit possesing a bullet? I really have no idea how that would work, just heard it somewhere. |
well, i suppose that would be remarkably similar to the situation of a spirit not possessing a bullet that attacked someone astrally. except that possessing the bullet costs an extra service, making it an especially bad idea.
nathanross
Mar 27 2007, 02:07 AM
Im just exploring the possibilities. The only people I could see want/needing a ranged astral weapon are adepts. And theyre probably better off just retreating/unperceiving than trying to damage a flying mage/spirit. Of course, they always have distance strike! (that does work in astral right?)
Seriously though, even if it is completely illogical, how can it be done? Is it possible (though insanely expensive)
Jaid
Mar 27 2007, 02:34 AM
yes, you could theoretically have a spirit possess a bullet and fire that at an astral entity. the situation would be resolved the same as if the spirit engaged the astral entity in astral combat however. except that the spirit would have 3 IPs in astral combat, whereas it's getting only one attack in bullet form.
on the other hand, if you had just bought the services of the spirit and ordered them to engage the enemy in astral combat in the first place, you'd get much better results.
Lagomorph
Mar 27 2007, 04:05 PM
I agree with hyz, when entering astral space, check your physics at the door.
My impression of astral space is that it's a... reflection of the thoughts and feelings of people. In astral you see an object reflected in the real world because every one sees that object in the real world, so in essence you're seeing the world by proxy of other peoples general perception of reality, tinged with how every one else is feeling or thinking about that object.
An object in a Someone Elses Problem field wouldn't show up in astral as no one has paid attention to the object. But if a team of architects may be dreaming about putting a skyscraper up, then you could see their dream reflected in the astral, the more they form the idea in their head and share it with others, the more real it becomes in astral.
In that view, an item isn't likely to hurt you unless it has intention of hurting you, you can't stub your toe in astral, but a critter or person with intent to hurt you (and the astral combat skill) can hurt you.
I suppose it might be possible to imbue a bullet with so much hate that it might be able to hurt something, but it would require an aweful lot of work.
Demerzel
Mar 27 2007, 04:32 PM
| QUOTE (Lagomorph) |
| I suppose it might be possible to imbue a bullet with so much hate that it might be able to hurt something, but it would require an aweful lot of work. |
I had a friend in high school who bought a Furbie and said bad words to it continuously so it would learn how to cuss, then would hang out at the mall so it could beam her bad language out to all the other furbies being carried around. I bet you could throw that furbie at an astral form and hurt it.
WhiskeyMac
Mar 27 2007, 06:47 PM
I'm pretty sure I had a possessed Furby. The damn thing kept talking about being friends and cooing even when it was turned off! Freaked me the hell out. I tossed it out the first moving vehicle I could get a ride in.
Kyoto Kid
Mar 27 2007, 08:17 PM
...note to self; write up Furbies for posting in critters 2 thread. Make sure to mention they are dual natured...
Demerzel
Mar 27 2007, 08:53 PM
My bad on that spelling btw KK. It's Furby, not Furbie...