My group is creating their characters, and a few questions have came up especially regarding magic.
First, a shaman wants to have the increased reflexes spell. Since to get the max effect (+3 initiative passes) the caster needs to net 4 successes, is there a point to cast it above force 4 ?
Thus, would a sustaining focus level 4 would suffice in every case to sustain the spell ?
It might be stated somewhere in the books, but i musnt have seen it right.
The barrier spells add the net success as barrier rating. I suppose i must have misread and its force of the barrier + net successes ?
Is the armor spell the same ? or does it add just net success ?
From a game balance perspective, dont you think that the fact its cumulative with worn armor make this spell absolutely overpowered ?
Full Version: Magic rules in 4th edition
Regarding increased reflexes:
In terms of effect, there's no difference.
In terms of the durability of the spell to resist encounters with wards, counterspelling, being targeted by spells, etc more force is better.
I don't want to comment on the rest until I have a chance to look at books.
In terms of effect, there's no difference.
In terms of the durability of the spell to resist encounters with wards, counterspelling, being targeted by spells, etc more force is better.
I don't want to comment on the rest until I have a chance to look at books.
| QUOTE (Treehuger @ Mar 30 2007, 02:54 PM) |
| My group is creating their characters, and a few questions have came up especially regarding magic. First, a shaman wants to have the increased reflexes spell. Since to get the max effect (+3 initiative passes) the caster needs to net 4 successes, is there a point to cast it above force 4 ? |
No compelling reason, no.
| QUOTE |
| Thus, would a sustaining focus level 4 would suffice in every case to sustain the spell ? |
Yes. But you cannot get one at character generation.
| QUOTE |
| The barrier spells add the net success as barrier rating. I suppose i must have misread and its force of the barrier + net successes ? |
Not sure. It surely seems a bit low.
| QUOTE |
| Is the armor spell the same ? or does it add just net success ? |
Your net hits. Force limits how many net hits you can have.
| QUOTE |
| From a game balance perspective, dont you think that the fact its cumulative with worn armor make this spell absolutely overpowered ? |
Three levels of armor means one DV less on average when you resist damage. That's good, but not too powerful.
Bye
Thanee
| QUOTE (Thanee) | ||
Three levels of armor means one DV less on average when you resist damage. That's good, but not too powerful. |
Don't forget that the target is shimmering and clearly visible to everyone.
Yeah, screaming "HERE, SHOOT ME!" isn't always the best option in SR. 
Bye
Thanee
Bye
Thanee
Always shoot the mage first uh ?
That's what my granpa used to say ...
That's what my granpa used to say ...
I agree with Thanee. Barrier has a barrier rating of Force+net hits.
Armor is just hits. (up to Force, as always)
It doesn't encumber and it stacks with worn armor. It's powerful, but not overwhelmingly so, IMO.
Armor is just hits. (up to Force, as always)
It doesn't encumber and it stacks with worn armor. It's powerful, but not overwhelmingly so, IMO.
| QUOTE (Treehuger) |
| Always shoot the mage first uh ? That's what my granpa used to say ... |
Kill the adept first. Quickly. That's what I say.
My point was more that a character with an armored spell cast on him is clearly visible, which is not always a bright (pun intendend) idea.
Forget the armor spell, go with the deflection spell from Street Magic or combat sense. The deflection spell makes me think of Fortune from MGS2 though.
True, deflection is subtler, but IIRC it won't help with explosions or melee. (explosions don't count as ranged attacks, do they?)
True, only armor and basic reaction would help you against an explosion, but combat sense gives you bonus die against ranged and melee attacks
Yeah, I have found in cases like this there is only one reason to up the force, and that is if you are worried about it being countered or dispelled. If neither of those are things you worry about at the time you cast the spell, just go with force 4.
| QUOTE (X-Kalibur) |
| Forget the armor spell, go with the deflection spell from Street Magic or combat sense. The deflection spell makes me think of Fortune from MGS2 though. |
I'm thinking of Fortune too.
You didn't misread the barrier spells - it's net hits. Nothing stopping you from house-ruling it differently, though.
The armor spells not all it's cracked up to be, since it's sustained some of it's effectiveness is immediatly lost (unless you invest in a sustaining focus which can be expensive), and with a high armor value the vast majority of your damage will be stun, which might cause problums if you start taking drain damage on top of it.
| QUOTE |
| The armor spells not all it's cracked up to be, since it's sustained some of it's effectiveness is immediatly lost (unless you invest in a sustaining focus which can be expensive), and with a high armor value the vast majority of your damage will be stun, which might cause problums if you start taking drain damage on top of it. |
I believe it was stated in another thread that dishing out all that stun damage is really far more efficient in many cases, as you'll have a much easier time knocking out the troll in his military gear than trying to punch a bullet through it and killing him.
I think that was a run-on sentence. Hm.
Yes, which is why I House Ruled that Stun Damage downgrades as well to 1/2 damage rounded down.
Oh, but that takes all the fun out of life. What's more satisfying than to see that troll in his freaking quasi-mecha-suit keel over after you've pumped a couple dozen magazines of lead into the same area on his chest?
Then again... it would suck ass if it happened to you, as a runner. But hey, it just makes you more careful, right?
Then again... it would suck ass if it happened to you, as a runner. But hey, it just makes you more careful, right?
Well actually I did it to encourage the use of lethal attacks on both sides of the screen, but thats just me. 
Well of course the fact that I also introduced a Combat Drug that mimics the effects of a Pain Editor, albeit with side-effects also tends to help... *winks*
Well of course the fact that I also introduced a Combat Drug that mimics the effects of a Pain Editor, albeit with side-effects also tends to help... *winks*
It may be worth mentioning explicitly that the armor spell can downgrade physical damage to stun while combat sense cannot (not sure about deflection, have not read it.) Not every Mage can cast heal, so stun damage might be a lot more attractive (Hours vs. days.) Plus, it keeps those pesky bulletholes out of your clothes when the holdout scores a hit.
Combat Sense doesn't directly downgrade physical damage to stun, but by giving you more dice to dodge, it makes it less likely that an attack will stage up, so that heavy pistol is less likely to beat your armor jacket. Plus, it makes it more likely that you will completely dodge an attack. No damage is even better than stun damage.
The Deflection spell has the same advantage, except that it is only good against ranged attacks, not melee.
The Deflection spell has the same advantage, except that it is only good against ranged attacks, not melee.
| QUOTE (Glyph) |
| You didn't misread the barrier spells - it's net hits. Nothing stopping you from house-ruling it differently, though. |
I've re read the books, and according to it, it's just net success as barrier rating.
Do some of you play with force + net hits for barriers ? would it create some imbalance ?
Then you'd have really strong barriers that would take some serious artillery to get through, as opposed to the semi-manageable ones now.
Think of it this way. A mage can throw to spells at once, but he has to split his sspell pol which limits it's effectiveness. But if a mage can throw up two force 6 barriers at once, and only need one success on each to make two force 7 barriers, it changes how it works considerably.
Think of it this way. A mage can throw to spells at once, but he has to split his sspell pol which limits it's effectiveness. But if a mage can throw up two force 6 barriers at once, and only need one success on each to make two force 7 barriers, it changes how it works considerably.
I would house rule that it takes two successes per IP for increased reflexes, if I allowed the spell in my games at all. I would also not allow them to cast spells faster, just attack or move actions as the increased speed it would seem to me would make it harder to hold your concentration. They can be like the street sammie or they can be a spell caster but not both at the same time. I would rather have 20 trolls with Panther Cannons then one magic user with this spell.
| QUOTE (Glyph) |
| You didn't misread the barrier spells - it's net hits. Nothing stopping you from house-ruling it differently, though. |
Why house rule it? Net hits is still capped by Force. I don't know where people are getting this Force + Net hits because that's not in the book. You get a point of armour and barrier rating per hit. A barrier rating of 3 is equivalent to a plaster wall or internal wooden door. And if you did really well and got 7 hits, then you've got the equivalent of hardwood. Seeing as you can't really manouver a 2m diameter dome very well, I don't see it as that unbalancing. It's very useful in the hands of a smart player, but that is all.
As to Increase Reflexes. Meh. There are plenty of problems with walking around with Quickened or Focus bound spells. Especially with the latter as you really do not want to be casting and recasting this spell. The spell is good. But characters have to have something that is good. You can't smear everything down to the same level all the time.
| QUOTE (knasser) |
| I don't know where people are getting this Force + Net hits because that's not in the book. |
I think they're getting that from old editions. I'm pretty sure that's where I was getting it.
It's from combat spells I think, which do damamge equal to Force + net hits
| QUOTE (Ravor) |
| Yes, which is why I House Ruled that Stun Damage downgrades as well to 1/2 damage rounded down. |
I use this rule as well. Is it Serbitar's or yours?
It's mine, with the exception of his karma char gen I haven't really read any of Serbitar's house rules with any detail so he very well might suggest the same thing however.
I have a question too, can you manifest while astral projecting and cast spells at physical targets? It says that manifesting is reverse astral perception and you can cast spells at targets on the astral plane when perceiving, so wouldn't it stand to reason that you could do something similar while manifested?
Hmm, good question, although I'd be inclined to rule that no you can't for the sake of sanity and Game Balance.
Where are rules for manifesting?
Ok, found them on BBB p184. So uh, how the heck WOULD that work?
Well if you were going to allow it, I think the manifesting Mage/Spirit would be limited to using Mana-based Spells only since he/she/it isn't really there like a true Dual Natured being is.
Still I have a horrible image of the tons of 'ultimate' Mage builds popping up with '1' in all Physical Stats who is always in the Astral and uses Manifesting to stunball everything into submission ahead of the rest of the team.
Still I have a horrible image of the tons of 'ultimate' Mage builds popping up with '1' in all Physical Stats who is always in the Astral and uses Manifesting to stunball everything into submission ahead of the rest of the team.
No. You need a physical form to affect physical forms, which is why spirits have the matieralization power.
Here's another question: Does a manifesting astral form have a -2 modifier for all actions on the astral plane; or are they simply unable to interact with other astral forms?
Here's another question: Does a manifesting astral form have a -2 modifier for all actions on the astral plane; or are they simply unable to interact with other astral forms?
Manifesting Astral forms are just visible/audible to the physical. No real other affect. You're not seeing into the physical plane with physical sight. You don't have a physical form, so you can't have any purely physical actions, so you don't get -2 for doing physical actions while astrally percieving. They errataed out the ability to get hit by mana spells in 1.5. Since your perceptions don't really transfer out into the phyiscal it's not like you'll have anything distracting you making the -2 for astral actions.
Has anyone considered house-ruling out Manifestation? I know when I returned to Shadowrun after leaving in 2nd edition, that it was a big surprise to suddenly have mages able to tag along in Astral Space, chatting away. In 2nd, it was much more of an issue of "where's the mage? why isn't she back?"
| QUOTE (Fastball @ Apr 23 2007, 02:09 PM) |
| No. You need a physical form to affect physical forms, which is why spirits have the matieralization power. Here's another question: Does a manifesting astral form have a -2 modifier for all actions on the astral plane; or are they simply unable to interact with other astral forms? |
Actually, from what I can tell a spirit doesn't have to materialize to hit you with an innate mana spell. And if you can cast onto the astral when percieving why couldn't you cast the opposite direction?
It may be something that has to be gm's discretion... unless Frank Trollman or someone chimes in?
I'd think that there would be some dicepool modifiers based on astral perception and the like, but I wouldn't think that it would be impossible.
*on a side note noone ever comments on my sigs lol*
hey, nice sig.
Nice sig, indeed.
| QUOTE (Athanatos) |
| Actually, from what I can tell a spirit doesn't have to materialize to hit you with an innate mana spell. And if you can cast onto the astral when percieving why couldn't you cast the opposite direction? |
I'm pretty sure spirits can't use mana powers that way:
page 100 of SM under inhabitation:
While most spirits live on the astral plane, able to affect the physical world only transiently through materialization or the possession of vessels,...
page 101 of SM under possession:
Some spirits lack the ability to materialize, so they must possess vessels in order to interact with the physical plane.
Scaring away or knocking out mundanes while astral would seem to make those statements false.
Also, from the SR4 rulebook, page 176:
Spirits use the Materialization power to assume physical form when they must use a power on a target not present in astral space.
Also, the context of that part of the rules makes it clear that manifesting does not allow any casting onto the physical plane.
Sleepyman
The way I see it, when you manifest you don't get to see the material plane, the material plane just gets to see you. A manifesting mage is, to all intents and purposes, still in the astral plane, and simply making his astral self visible to mundanes. Consequently no casting of spells at physical targets, and no being targetted by physical spells or attacks. I'd also be inclined to give a manifesting mage a spooky ghostlike quality (transparent, blurred edges, fuzzy details) for any observers.
| QUOTE (Garrowolf) |
| I would house rule that it takes two successes per IP for increased reflexes, if I allowed the spell in my games at all. I would also not allow them to cast spells faster, just attack or move actions as the increased speed it would seem to me would make it harder to hold your concentration. They can be like the street sammie or they can be a spell caster but not both at the same time. I would rather have 20 trolls with Panther Cannons then one magic user with this spell. |
Why? In our group of 8 characters (2 chars per player that get switched between), there are 3 mages. Two of them have this spell and routinely put it in their sustaining focus (one is limited to force 3 but the other has a force 3 and force 4 sustaining focus so he can choose).
It really does not cause any major issues. Without this spell, mages tend to be toast very very fast unless they had time to prep before being attacked.
Another minor point to note is that it increases initiative directly (and not reaction) which means the mage still probably sucks at "dodging" unless he goes full defense.
I'm pretty sure if asked, our gm would say his least favorite spell used regularly is physical camouflage (with a close second of conceal spirit power). If the bad guys can't locate you, they can't do much to you (and with camouflage, if they can locate you, they still often can't do much to you).
| QUOTE (Garrowolf) |
| I would house rule that it takes two successes per IP for increased reflexes, if I allowed the spell in my games at all. I would also not allow them to cast spells faster, just attack or move actions as the increased speed it would seem to me would make it harder to hold your concentration. They can be like the street sammie or they can be a spell caster but not both at the same time. I would rather have 20 trolls with Panther Cannons then one magic user with this spell. |
Never understood some peoples problem with this spell. Yes, it tends to be a sustained stable with combat mages but so is Wired Reflexes with Street Samurai.
The mage has to keep an eye out for Wards when using a sustaining foci, or risk the distruction of such. Often moving through wards involes metamagic Masking or turning off and recasting the spell. Add this to spell drain and it evens out. A Street Samurai can keep his Wired Reflexes up indefinatly and does not have to worry about getting a boot to the head if he does turn them off and on.
I don't want to start a new thread, so this thread seems like a suitable place to insert a tangent.
A lot of people have been complaining that magical traditions in 4th are a little samey. Not something I have issue with personally, but it occured to me that differences between traditions could be heightened by compulsory geasa.
Basically each tradition would have some particular geasa associated with it. For example all hermetics would have an gesture geas, while all shamans would have an talisman geas. To pull a couple of traditions out of SM, an Aztec nahualli would have an incantation geas, a practioner of the Hindu tradition would be required to remain ascetic, a Shinto kannushi would have to perform a cleansing ritual.
Thoughts and criticisms?
A lot of people have been complaining that magical traditions in 4th are a little samey. Not something I have issue with personally, but it occured to me that differences between traditions could be heightened by compulsory geasa.
Basically each tradition would have some particular geasa associated with it. For example all hermetics would have an gesture geas, while all shamans would have an talisman geas. To pull a couple of traditions out of SM, an Aztec nahualli would have an incantation geas, a practioner of the Hindu tradition would be required to remain ascetic, a Shinto kannushi would have to perform a cleansing ritual.
Thoughts and criticisms?
Well personally I don't care for the idea because I like the fact that the restrictions placed upon a Mage's mojo comes from within instead of being an artifact of his training.
But then again, I've never liked the idea of Mages/Shamans being treated differently under the rules, so I'm probably somewhat bias...
But then again, I've never liked the idea of Mages/Shamans being treated differently under the rules, so I'm probably somewhat bias...
Thank you for the comments.
You have raised a lot of good points, but do you think a metamagic might allow you to do so?
You have raised a lot of good points, but do you think a metamagic might allow you to do so?
A metamagic that allowed astrally projecting mages to materialise? I fear that would be somewhat overpowered.
| QUOTE (ornot) |
| A metamagic that allowed astrally projecting mages to materialise? I fear that would be somewhat overpowered. |
...I agree. It almost borders on Teleportation but without risk of error.
I'd imagine it would atleast involve some drain. And some negative mods to rolls. I pretty much thought that it would atleast give a bit more in the way of minor advance attacks and taunting that seem to fit petty well with mages in various Games/Movies/books etc. Not that I think Shadowrun has to have everything that other venues have, but I would think that atleast some Awakened would develop the ability.
And probably involve some damage/temporary penalties if your Manifested form is disrupted by attacks able to effect it. Maybe even possibly death!
And probably involve some damage/temporary penalties if your Manifested form is disrupted by attacks able to effect it. Maybe even possibly death!
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