ornot
Apr 11 2007, 09:30 AM
QUOTE (Tomothy) |
QUOTE | As for dermal armour, I always saw it as a thickened skin. It was never a really uber-durable armour in my eyes. It was more like a toughening, rather than a real honest-to-god armour system. |
And yet this sounds similar to Orthoskin which has the same effect for less essence...
|
Well, it does have exactly the same stats as orthoskin, so that makes sense. As for Orthoskin being less essence, it's BIOware, which universally has a lower essence cost than equivalent cyberware, which is balanced by bioware's higher cost.
Perhaps what needs changing is the description of dermal armour to better reflect the results.
DigitEyez
Apr 11 2007, 10:18 AM
Orthoskin is the Bioware version of Dermal Plating. Not only the essence cost differs but the price as well... Its six times more expensive then Dermal Plating. And to really point out the simularity other than having the same game effect, they're incompatible.
[edit]

I look away for one second and Ornot posts a reply an hour before me. Stupid last post on the page...
Tomothy
Apr 11 2007, 10:21 AM
Alls I meant was that Orthoskin sounds more like it would be a flexible, thickened skin type armour. Whereas Dermal Plating sounds like less flexible slabs of armour plating.
DigitEyez
Apr 11 2007, 10:25 AM
But it does have the same in-game effects... So basically you have skin strong as slabs of armor plating, which to me is a little weird. And I can't hand-wave this one with my favorite "its magic" either.
Demerzel
Apr 11 2007, 03:39 PM
QUOTE (Tomothy) |
QUOTE (dictionary.com) | 2. overly concerned with minute details or formalisms |
|
Sure Dictionaty.com is fine, but I prefer Merriam-Webster. They’re a little more complete.
QUOTE (www.m-w.com) |
Main Entry: pe·dan·tic Pronunciation: pi-'dan-tik Function: adjective 1 : of, relating to, or being a pedant 2 : narrowly, stodgily, and often ostentatiously learned 3 : UNIMAGINATIVE, PEDESTRIAN - pe·dan·ti·cal·ly /-'dan-ti-k(&-)lE/ adverb |
QUOTE (www.m-w.com) |
Main Entry: ped·ant Pronunciation: 'pe-d&nt Function: noun Etymology: Middle French, from Italian pedante 1 obsolete : a male schoolteacher 2 a : one who makes a show of knowledge b : one who is unimaginative or who unduly emphasizes minutiae in the presentation or use of knowledge c : a formalist or precisionist in teaching |
Sure, it may mean that I’m unduly emphasizing minutiae, but more importantly it means I’m correct. If you’re saying that making a consideration of room size is unduly emphasizing minutiae and that it’s beyond what should happen in a SR game I have to wonder how you handle pistol ranges.
Basically, I take issue with these cases where players try to abuse Gymnastics as a replacement for Dodge. I see your troll build and all I can say is I’m glad I’m neither playing in the same game as that, nor running it.
Glyph
Apr 12 2007, 02:55 AM
Environmental modifiers should come into play for things like trying to use a sniping rifle in close combat, or a polearm or monofilament whip in a narrow corridor. But you're making it sound more like you would be actively looking for (or creating) situations where you could penalize gymnastics dodging.
Your statement about players who "abuse" gymnastics as a replacement for dodge rings a few alarm bells. Gymnastics dodge IS a replacement for dodge, although it only really replaces full defense for ranged combat, so it is only useful if you already have a melee skill to defend with for close combat.
I'm not saying that a massive troll shouldn't occasionally run into an environment where cartwheeling isn't a viable option, but you need to be careful not to overdo it.
Demerzel
Apr 12 2007, 03:13 AM
A very nice example of the abuse was just posted
here.Gymnastics is not a replacement for Dodge. It can be used in some cases as similar to dodge. But it operates in a wholy different manner. The abuse comes from attempting to diminish the circumstances in which the differences come out.
Firing a shot from an Ares Predator at short range with the right type of ammo and an appropriately strengthed character hitting with a combat axe have the same result. They do a certain damage code with a certain AP. It doesn't mean an Ares Predator is a replacement for a combat axe.
If you are attempting to use gymnastics to dodge. You will end up somewhere other than where you started. You are not standing on one spot doing flips, splits, dropping prone, doing kip ups without leaving the spot you're in. If you are you're not going to be effective at dodging bullets compared to tumbling, rolling, somersaulting, cartwheeling etc. where your position is changing.
Then on top of that saying, well Gymnsatics is an athletics skill so Gymnastics dodge is an athletics text, and therefore your synthacardium is adding to your gymnastics dodge. All the while not moving from the 1 meter square you positioned your mini in.
Glyph
Apr 12 2007, 05:26 AM
I wouldn't disagree that gymnastics dodge involves movement, but I don't think someone using conventional dodging is standing still and just bobbing to the side, either. Obviously, gymnastics involves more movement. Personally, I think that uneven or dangerous (broken glass, etc.) ground will curtail gymnastics more often than lack of room will.
On the synthcardium issue, I don't see how anyone could say gymnastics dodge is not an athletics test. I don't see how you can think it will add to your gymnastics skill in every other instance, but suddenly not do so when you use it for dodging.
By the way, I found the build abusive, but not for taking gymnastics dodge. I found it abusive because it involved taking a mentor spirit that completely didn't fit the character (a healer totem for a close combat specialist?), presumably for the two extra soak dice. Also, as Narmio pointed out, the combination of negative qualities leaves a GM with the choice of "Do I ignore his disadvantages, or do I kill his character?"
Demerzel
Apr 12 2007, 05:45 AM
In that case he took gymnastics over dodge, for no other reason other than to apply the synthacardium.
I'd say that there is no one thing in that build that I would say makes it abusive. There are some glaring single entities, bet every one of them requires the rest to be abusive.
This is just one of the straws. And for me a character who chooses to rely on gymnastics soley because he can get some free extra dodge with some 'ware cheaply, is just a warning flag.
Everything munchy is just one straw though. It's always a matter of looking at the build. I really can't believe that someone posted that character with any expectation of playing it. It looks like someone purposefully looked for something to draw out munchkinism challenges.
Glyph
Apr 12 2007, 06:21 AM
I don't find taking synthcardium and gymnastics any more abusive than taking a smartlink for 2 extra dice, or a cerebral booster for 2 extra dice, or tailored pheromes for 3 extra dice, etc. Gymnastics dodge is only useful for combat-oriented characters who have melee skills to counterattack with (since gymnastics stinks at melee defense, even using full defense, which btw is all it can be used for).
I talked in a bit more detail on that thread, but my main concern with that build wasn't how min-maxed it was, but how limited it was, even in combat.
DigitEyez
Apr 12 2007, 08:11 AM
There is no need to go looking for or creating these situations. If a troll excepts a run against a Renraku office building he
will get into trouble because the whole building is made for humans and there will be
moments were it will be difficult to dodge or perform some other type of action depending on having enough space to do so.
You are mistaken about Gymnastics only applying to ranged attacks, it also applies for melee attacks which does make it a replacement for full-defense dodging with the added bonus that gymnastic tests can be boosted with synthacardium while making the same test using the dodge skill cannot.
I'd go even further to say that, if you get hit while using gymnastic dodge you're knocked down a lot easier than when you're standing or trying to jump aside (using dodge).
And of course you don't want to always apply modifiers because then you'd just be doing the same thing over and over again. Can't allow the GM to be a one-trick-pony now can we
Prowler
Apr 12 2007, 01:06 PM
Though this discussion is very interesting to follow I do believe it has gone way off-topic by several topics.
Dermal armor has not fared well in the transition to sr4, as it still gives the same bonuses as it (derm sheath) used to while all the regular armor stats have gone up. Having said that it still is a very valid choice at chargen. A character with a body of 4 and dermal armor r2 resists as well as somebody with body 6. It is also an armor that can not be stripped and is hard to spot. Well worth the investment for sammies IMO.
Tomothy
Apr 12 2007, 01:26 PM
QUOTE |
I really can't believe that someone posted that character with any expectation of playing it. |
Funnily enough, I didn't have any intention (or expectation) of playing the character and couldn't even if I did. I was just wondering if it was viable (the answer it seems is "not so much").
Glyph
Apr 13 2007, 02:25 AM
@DigitEyez: I didn't say you couldn't use gymnastics for full defense in melee; I just said it wasn't any good for it. From the FAQ:
QUOTE |
What exactly is the dice pool used in the Full Defense option Gymnastic Dodge (p. 151, SR4)?
Against ranged attacks, it would be Reaction + Gymnastics. Against melee attacks, it would be Reaction + Dodge + Gymnastics or Reaction + melee skill + Gymnastics.
|
See how useless that is? If you already have dodge or a melee skill, just use double dodge or double melee skill for full defense! And gymnastics can only be used for full defense, not regular dodging, blocking, or parrying. That's why I only consider it a valid choice for a character who has a melee skill to defend with in close combat.
Now, getting back to dermal armor, it seems weaker at first glance. But as someone pointed out earlier in the thread, its value lies in how it is cumulative with other armor. The reason for this is that weapon values and armor values are relatively close, so a few extra points of armor put you at the tipping point where you are far more likely to be soaking stun damage.
DigitEyez
Apr 13 2007, 08:10 AM
QUOTE (Glyph) |
@DigitEyez: I didn't say you couldn't use gymnastics for full defense in melee; I just said it wasn't any good for it. From the FAQ:
QUOTE | What exactly is the dice pool used in the Full Defense option Gymnastic Dodge (p. 151, SR4)?
Against ranged attacks, it would be Reaction + Gymnastics. Against melee attacks, it would be Reaction + Dodge + Gymnastics or Reaction + melee skill + Gymnastics.
|
See how useless that is? If you already have dodge or a melee skill, just use double dodge or double melee skill for full defense! And gymnastics can only be used for full defense, not regular dodging, blocking, or parrying. That's why I only consider it a valid choice for a character who has a melee skill to defend with in close combat.
|
I know how it works.
The only thing is that for characters with synthacardium it is still usable to use gymnastic dodge as they receive a DP mod of +1 to +3 to the test depending on the synthacardiums rating.
Other than that I completely agree that its mostly covered by a characters melee or dodge skill.
I got nothing (more) on Dermal Armor. To me its fine as is.
Chrome Shadow
Apr 13 2007, 08:06 PM
QUOTE (X-Kalibur) |
I'm personally waiting for dermal sheathing with ruthenium to make a reappearance. |
Me too, but not necesarily for the rutheniun...
lorechaser
Apr 13 2007, 08:48 PM
QUOTE (Demerzel) |
If you are attempting to use gymnastics to dodge. You will end up somewhere other than where you started. You are not standing on one spot doing flips, splits, dropping prone, doing kip ups without leaving the spot you're in. If you are you're not going to be effective at dodging bullets compared to tumbling, rolling, somersaulting, cartwheeling etc. where your position is changing. |
Woo hoo! Free movement!
"I do a gymnastic dodge, cartwheeling and back flipping to the left. How far do I move?"
"5'"
"Oh come on, man! I'm a troll! I'm nearly 8' tall, and just did 3 cartwheels! I had to move at least 20 feet!"
"Okay, fine. Your action."
"I hit the mage I just flipped up to with my combat axe."
"Hey! He was .... 20 feet away."
"Yeah! I get 15 total damage, with -3 ap."
Demerzel
Apr 13 2007, 11:05 PM
Running doesn't take an action. Movement is well defined. You get your movement rate just like you normally would have, except you are doing it in a flamboyant exaggerated matter. You just don't simply get to stay in one spot and tumble to avoid incoming fire.
lorechaser
Apr 14 2007, 03:00 AM
What if I've already moved my full movement rate, and I then perform an acrobatic dodge?
Additionally, if I use, say, Capoeira as my combat style, do you also move across the battlefield, along with your opponent? Capoeira is a very mobile style, so if you're fighting someone, you're probably both going to move a pretty good distance during the fight.
CF:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8...=capoeira&hl=enBoth as an example of the amount of potential movement, in the first several minutes, and as a fine example of how you can do some pretty serious dodging without leaving a small, defined area in the middle bits....
Demerzel
Apr 14 2007, 06:29 AM
QUOTE (lorechaser) |
What if I've already moved my full movement rate, and I then perform an acrobatic dodge?
[snip]
as a fine example of how you can do some pretty serious dodging without leaving a small, defined area in the middle bits.... |
Part 1: You can't allready have used your movement, it is distributed over all the movement passes.
Part 2: Fine then you want to use a martial arts style of dodging then buy dodge. If you want to use Gymnastics you'll look like Mary Lou Retton.
lorechaser
Apr 14 2007, 12:53 PM
QUOTE (Demerzel) |
Part 1: You can't allready have used your movement, it is distributed over all the movement passes.
Part 2: Fine then you want to use a martial arts style of dodging then buy dodge. If you want to use Gymnastics you'll look like Mary Lou Retton. |
Part 1: But this is in the 3rd pass, after I've acted, and I have 3 ips....
Part 2: One of those two fighters is using capoeira, which is pretty much the textbook definition of Gymnastics dodge, I think. That's the entire point of Capoeira - that it's an athletic/dance style combined with getting kicked in the face.
Maybe that's the fundamental disconnect here.
To me, a gymnastics dodge is that guy, or Chow Yun Fat doing his diving rolls, or Tony Jaa running up a wall, and backflipping into the air, and landing behind the guy he's fighting, or Jackie Chan dropping flat under neath a blow, leaping back to his feet, or Neo, in the fight scene with Agent Smith, flipping, jumping, etc.
Honestly, I'm not sure what "Dodge" represents as a skill, other than "If you can dodge a wrench, you can dodge a ball" - someone standing there and just moving parts of their body....
Oh, and I'm not seriously busting on you, or picking on you - I'm simply trying to illustrate the problems with making rulings that extend beyond the rules (like "You move after using a dodge") - the rules are abstractions. If you try to expand on them too much, it breaks down.
Demerzel
Apr 14 2007, 01:57 PM
The problem is the impression I get from your arguments is that there are no cases where gymnastics cannot replace dodge for full defense. My point is that there are those situations. They don't ALWAYS apply, but they are exist.
Furthermore if you're going to be a munchkin troll mystic adept bear totem combat axe toting allergic to water who bought gymnastics instead of dodge because you can add 3 dice with a synthacardium, well expect me to have you gymnastics your fat troll arse right off the pier when you attempt to dodge a hail of gunshots.
bibliophile20
Apr 14 2007, 03:00 PM
QUOTE (Demerzel) |
The problem is the impression I get from your arguments is that there are no cases where gymnastics cannot replace dodge for full defense. My point is that there are those situations. They don't ALWAYS apply, but they are exist.
Furthermore if you're going to be a munchkin troll mystic adept bear totem combat axe toting allergic to water who bought gymnastics instead of dodge because you can add 3 dice with a synthacardium, well expect me to have you gymnastics your fat troll arse right off the pier when you attempt to dodge a hail of gunshots. |
Besides, the image of a munchkin troll is just too funny for words... "it's a mini-troll!" Hmmm... that makes me wonder... healthy human babies range between 6 to 9 pounds at birth--I wonder how big troll and dwarf babies are, and, if troll babies are comparable (and they can't be that much bigger, otherwise inter-breeding between the different metatypes would be a severe issue), how much faster those little tykes grow up to be big bruisers. I've heard of growth spurts, but that has got to be something impressive to see.
But, yeah, I have to agree with Demerzel--if someone tried that, their fourth mission would be to retrieve a rare saltwater fish, where said troll adept would, somewhere along the line, get a dunking.
DigitEyez
Apr 14 2007, 05:55 PM
Of course you move when using gymnastic dodge, lorechaser. All the fluff examples you gave include movement. Therefore its only logical to assume movement is involved while using gymnastic dodge. As soon as you declare full defense, your next action is used to 'pay' for it.
Therefore, you can't abuse gymnastic dodge the way you suggested because it actually cost you an action to perform it.
lorechaser
Apr 15 2007, 12:32 AM
I agree that you move around while doing it. But you move in that quasi-space for the game world, and you conveniently end up precisely where you started.
It's an abstraction, sure. But so is much of the game, and it's not anything outside the expectations of the majority of games....
Fundamentally, I agree that the munchkin troll (it warms my heart to see people using the right word there - min/maxed is far different from munchkined) needs to suffer horrifically for his choices. I just don't think punishing him for using gymnastics dodge, which is a completely valid option suggested in the book, is the way to do it. If the character had attempted to convince the GM that it would be okay to use, say, climbing to dodge, then be harsh if you allow it. But Gymnastic Dodge is an option spelled out in the book. I don't see penalizing a character for it....
Dodge is a cheaper option anyway - if you're taking Gym Dodge, you better have spent points on a combat skill, and have the relevant weapon in hand (or an empty hand). The sammy that took melee (blades) and athletics (gymnastics) that needs to defend against the troll physad that is standing beside him is gonna be a bit sad if both his hands are occupied by his Ares Alpha....
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