Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Broken Equipment
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Pages: 1, 2
Diesel
Pawing through the books, a number of interesting figures struck me. Most notable was the availability on the Great Dragon anti-tank guided missile. Eight. Wow.

Some others struck me as odd. In Man and Machine, I can get a Cybernetic Squirtgun for avail eight. In non-cyber form, it's suddenly just out of my reach. The same goes for what is nothing more than a paintball gun, the ELD-AR.

Any other messed pieces of gear?
RedmondLarry
A medium machine gun is unavailable to starting characters (availability 14 or 18) unless you get it on a drone (L. S. Strato-9, availability 8 ) and carry it around under your arm.

The monofilament whip (availability 24) and Macauitl (availability 18) are both unavailable to starting characters, unless you get them as a weapon focus (availability 8 ).

Bullets fired from a Heavy Pistol go out 60 meters (Extreme range), but a strength 4 character can hit someone by throwing the pistol out to 80 meters (Grenade Range table, SR3 p. 119).
Birdy
QUOTE (OurTeam)
A medium machine gun is unavailable to starting characters (availability 14 or 18) unless you get it on a drone (L. S. Strato-9, availability 8 ) and carry it around under your arm.

The monofilament whip (availability 24) and Macauitl (availability 18) are both unavailable to starting characters, unless you get them as a weapon focus (availability 8 ).

Bullets fired from a Heavy Pistol go out 60 meters (Extreme range), but a strength 4 character can hit someone by throwing the pistol out to 80 meters (Grenade Range table, SR3 p. 119).

Actually, the same holds true in theorie for a good number of IRL pistols. Small caliber weapons often have "official" ranges less than 20 meters.

Michael
Lilt
I like the one about the pistol, but i thought the rules concerning vehicles were that they came disarmed?

Anyway: I've never had a problem with players owning Grand Dragon ATGMs... They hardly ever use them and when they do something always goes horribly wrong. They tried to use one against a heavy door in a sewer. The security door (BR 8*2=16) took some damage. So did the surrounding sewer walls (BR 6).

smile.gif
Siege
QUOTE (Birdy)
QUOTE (OurTeam @ Nov 5 2003, 11:02 AM)
A medium machine gun is unavailable to starting characters (availability 14 or 18) unless you get it on a drone (L. S. Strato-9, availability 8 ) and carry it around under your arm.

The monofilament whip (availability 24) and Macauitl (availability 18) are both unavailable to starting characters, unless you get them as a weapon focus (availability 8 ).

Bullets fired from a Heavy Pistol go out 60 meters (Extreme range), but a strength 4 character can hit someone by throwing the pistol out to 80 meters (Grenade Range table, SR3 p. 119).

Actually, the same holds true in theorie for a good number of IRL pistols. Small caliber weapons often have "official" ranges less than 20 meters.

Michael

For those of us not regularly acquainted with the metric system, 20 meters doesn't sound like a lot.

However, it's really like 60 feet (which is the same distance, but the larger number makes it easier to visualize for us backward Americans).

-Siege
tisoz
QUOTE (OurTeam @ Nov 5 2003, 05:02 AM)
The monofilament whip (availability 24) and Macauitl (availability 18) are both unavailable to starting characters, unless you get them as a weapon focus (availability 8 ).

And what GM would allow this? The availability of the enchanted item has to be considered as well as its seperate cost. Otherwise, what is to keep the rigger from buying a force 1 anchoring focus in the form of a GMC Banshee for 3000 nuyen?
QUOTE
Bullets fired from a Heavy Pistol go out 60 meters (Extreme range), but a strength 4 character can hit someone by throwing the pistol out to 80 meters (Grenade Range table, SR3 p. 119).

LOL.smile.gif
sir fwank
well aside from cost and availiblity rules, i have to say after looking through arsenal 2060 (german cannon companion) the H&K urban enforcer is the most broken firearm ever.

H&K urban enforcer
Concealability: 5/-(not detectable by MAD)
Ammunition: 36©
Mode: SA/BF/FA
Damage: 7M
Weight: 4
Availability: 14/16Days
Cost: 6200
Street Index: 2
Accessories: RC(3), Sound Suppressor, int. Smartlink II, grenade launcher 6(m)

seriously, why should i carry anything else?
tisoz
QUOTE (sir fwank)
seriously, why should i carry anything else?

Because 12,400 is a lot to throw in the bay when you get done using it?
Siege
Not to mention if you manage to find one at a TN of 14, you'd have to pry that thing out of my cold, dead fingers.

-Siege
RedmondLarry
Time for me to learn German and buy another book.
-- USA Munchkin
krishcane
Wow, you'd learn German just to get a better gun? That's awesome! They should use that tactic in the high schools to motivate kids. smile.gif

--K
sir fwank
did i not say aside from cost and availibility?

you can get the original h&k combat smg for 2200 nuyen.gif si2 and avail 10. no smartlink or gernade launcher. otherwise same stats.
BitBasher
QUOTE
A medium machine gun is unavailable to starting characters (availability 14 or 18) unless you get it on a drone (L. S. Strato-9, availability 8 ) and carry it around under your arm
nice try, but no. Several times there has a been provided a quote from the R3 that vehicles and drones come without weapons, but with the mounts ready to accept them. For the listed price, no drone comes with weapon systems intact. The weapons listed in the description are the typical weapons placed in those mounts. Strange but true.
Artemis
QUOTE (tisoz)
QUOTE (OurTeam @ Nov 5 2003, 05:02 AM)
The monofilament whip (availability 24) and Macauitl (availability 18) are both unavailable to starting characters, unless you get them as a weapon focus (availability 8 ).

And what GM would allow this? The availability of the enchanted item has to be considered as well as its seperate cost. Otherwise, what is to keep the rigger from buying a force 1 anchoring focus in the form of a GMC Banshee for 3000 nuyen?

It would be well and nice, but according to the rules regarding Foci (SR3 p. 189-190):

QUOTE
If a focus has a non-magical purpose other than strictly ornamental, the character must pay the mundane cost of the item in addition to the cost for the focus.


Although they don't say specifically, I would venture a guess that you would have to facotr in availability. And if one is trying to buy it in-game, they'd have to factor in street index as well. It would be nice to sneak something like that past the rules though -chuckle-
Bizarro
QUOTE (BitBasher)
nice try, but no. Several times there has a been provided a quote from the R3 that vehicles and drones come without weapons, but with the mounts ready to accept them. For the listed price, no drone comes with weapon systems intact. The weapons listed in the description are the typical weapons placed in those mounts. Strange but true.

Anyone know exactly where in R3 this is stated? I'd like to point it out to one of my players.
BitBasher
I do most of my postings at work, so I don't have a book handy, but it has been posted here several times, and I looked it up and it was true... hopefully someone else can provide the page no...
Kagetenshi
I had thought that it had been determined that vehicles did in fact come with what they said they had... ah well, I'll reserve judgement until I see your quote.

~J
cykotek
Well, I hate to say it, but I can't find the "vehicles don't come with weapons" rule anywhere in R3, or SR3. However, there are only 3 "vehicles" listed that have weapons listed in their "other features" section:

MCT Hachiman - Proprietary partial-anthroform security drone
Lone Star Strato-9 - Lone Star "surveillence" drone
MF Akahito-class Supercarrier

Both the drones list a single MMG, while the carrier lists 4 ANDREWS systems. I'm going to ignore the carrier for the rest of this post, purely out of principle.

As for the drones, the Hachiman has an availability listing of "NA", aka, "GM, this is not for sale!". This is due to it's status as a cutting edge, robot-security product, designed for purely in-house work. Hence, it's inclusion of a weapon is not an issue.

As a GM, I would first waive the "2/48 hours" availability of the Strato-9. That is a specific model that would be well protected (and not sold) by it's maker. Feel free to market a comparable model, but it definately would not carry the Lone Star trademark. I'd classify the Strato-9 as a "non-commercial vehicle" (see pg 157, R3). That means either steal one, or bye a "commercial version" (i.e., stripped of weapons) at the listed prices.

Remember, if something doesn't make sense, it's your game. Nuke it 'till it works. If they persist, take Blackjack's advice: Drop a cow on them, preferably from orbit.
Lilt
Actually. I must admit that I can't find anything saying that vehicles come stripped. I must have just been told sometime and it stuck with me.

Anyhow, I think the price and is reasonable for a disarmed model so I'd let someone buy one of those, just without the MMG.
Kagetenshi
It's been claimed on Dumpshock before; probably where you got the impression.

~J
BitBasher
That may very well be true.
Synner
It should be obvious to anyone reading the rules both in SR3 and R3 that the Vehicles and Drones therein come "out of the box" with only the listed Features (especially when both books include rules for adding hardpoints/firmpoints if you want to add weapons).

Vehicles that include weapons systems and other extras have them listed in the Features, otherwise its pretty evident that you have to pay for further weapons, mounts and ammo.
The Frumious Bandersnatch
I don't quite understand the attempts to rationalize why they don't come with their listed features, either. It's like saying that simply because you don't like the fact that a Pocket Secretary includes 100 Mp of memory (since that, alone, makes the Pocket Secretary infinitely cheaper than a 100 Mp Pocket Computer if my own memory serves), it doesn't come with that even though it's clearly listed as one of it's features.

In other words, yes, the Strato-9 does come with the listed weapon. Silly as the sum of it is.
bwdemon
Most entries for drones/vehicles specifically state "(weapon not included)". It's likely that those entries without the "(weapon not included)" tag slipped by an editor somewhere along the line...
Bizarro
QUOTE (cykotek)
As a GM, I would first waive the "2/48 hours" availability of the Strato-9.  That is a specific model that would be well protected (and not sold) by it's maker.  Feel free to market a comparable model, but it definately would not carry the Lone Star trademark.  I'd classify the Strato-9 as a "non-commercial vehicle" (see pg 157, R3).  That means either steal one, or bye a "commercial version" (i.e., stripped of weapons) at the listed prices.

I like this suggestion, as I definitely have trouble swallowing the fact that something which basically amounts to an MMG attached to a propeller is within the availability limit for a starting character, yet the weapon itself isn't.
Kanada Ten
QUOTE
Errata
p. 176 Lone Star Strato-9
Change Fuel to 220 liters, Economy to 0.4/liter, Availability to 8/8 days and Cost to 34,500.
Abstruse
Tailored Pheremones -- a perfectly legal mod in the UCAS -- has an availability of 12. So even if I have the money and a SIN, I can't go to a clinic and get a perfectly legal bit of bioware without rolling boxcars on a single die.

The Abstruse One
Herald of Verjigorm
Availability and street index are for getting it done illegally. If you can survive the paperwork, you can get legal items without street index at an availability of "do I know who retails this?"

Items that have a fractional street index indicate how many of them have been stolen and that there is a cost decrease to get anyone to buy such products through the underretail methods.
mfb
there's always the survival knife / trauma patch 'infinte gold pieces cheat'.
nezumi
The other thing to keep in mind is that 'legal' doesn't always mean 'available'. A 1965 Mustang is perfectly legal, however it'll be a pickle to get. Tailored pheromones, if memory serves, are cultured bioware, which means very few people offer them and they've probably got quite a waiting list. So, like Herald said, if you can find a location which offers it and stand the waiting period, sure, you can get it at face price : )

What is the knife and trauma patch method of getting money?
Ed_209a
Trauma patch - 500 nuyen, SI4, Av 4/48hrs
Survival knife - 450 nuyen, SI1, Av 3/6hrs

The survival knife just happens to have a trauma patch stuck in the handle...

IE, you buy the knife for roughly 450 nuyen, sell the patch for roughly 2k nuyen, and then the knife for roughly 20 nuyen.

I think they must have meant a stim patch.
Bizarro
QUOTE (Ed_209a)
I think they must have meant a stim patch.

It's possible, but either way, I'm amazed that 12 (?) printings of SR3 have gone by without this being noticed. indifferent.gif
Ed_209a
<shrug>

Maybe it's just 12 printings worth of "You Idiot." glares from GMs to players. That is what I would do if they tried that.
BitBasher
well that and street index is not how much you SELL things for on the street, it's how much you BUY things for on the street. There's a big difference. Kind of like the difference between how much your car is worth on a trade-in and how much a dealer will resell it for. Big Difference.
The Frumious Bandersnatch
Right. You're going to average more like 250 nuyen for the Trauma Patch and about 225 nuyen for the Survival Knife (even though you wouldn't get that much since it would obviously be missing the Trauma Patch). Even if you do manage to sell it for that, you just made a total of 475 nuyen; a 25 nuyen profit.

But a profit nonetheless.
Siege
The idea of a trauma patch in a survival knife isn't a bad thing -- it's the ultimate band-aid.

But you know, in all the munchkins and powermongers I've ever known, none of them have ever considered buying a survival knife and trying to sell the patch at face value.

I don't know if I shoul be proud or ashamed.

-Siege
BitBasher
I have this wonky image of someone burying their survival knife in someone's chest up to the hilt, realizing it was the wrong person, freaking out while unscrewing the back off the knife, then slapping the trauma patch on their own victim.

By this standard I think there should be a trauma patch stored in the grips of all handguns.
Siege
Heh.

S'why every runner should carry two trauma patches: one for him(her)self and one for your best friend.

-Siege
BitBasher
You know I hope a friend never has to use a trauma patch on me. That thing DRASTICALLY increases the chance of permanent damage like lost limbs, damaged organs, ect on the permanent damage roll.
Siege
In a running gun battle when you drop to "nigh dead" and the closest medical assistance is 20 minutes away, trauma patches can be good. Not unlike drag handles on LBE gear.

Even if you have a trained biotech on hand, it might be better to trust the patch until the bullets/spells/Piasma stop raining on your head.

Especially with some of the numbers you toss around in your <edit>^G</edit>ame. grinbig.gif

"Life is a game; you can't play if you're dead."

-Siege
Corporate Raider
QUOTE (BitBasher)
You know I hope a friend never has to use a trauma patch on me. That thing DRASTICALLY increases the chance of permanent damage like lost limbs, damaged organs, ect on the permanent damage roll.

You are right about that. My first ganger turned sammy character was hobbling around on crutches for a few months while his new leg was being grown due to a trauma patch.
BitBasher
QUOTE
Even if you have a trained biotech on hand, it might be better to trust the patch until the bullets/spells/Piasma stop raining on your head.
Sweet Zombie Jesus! someone needs to stay indoors when there's scattered chance of pisama raining from the sky!!! Or even better, go out of town!
Siege
Well, I was responsible for the "drugged devil rat and water-ballon pitching rubber band" idea, so I felt the unpredictability of a SR had to be more accurately reflected in critter choices. grinbig.gif

-Siege
Abstruse
QUOTE (nezumi)
The other thing to keep in mind is that 'legal' doesn't always mean 'available'. A 1965 Mustang is perfectly legal, however it'll be a pickle to get. Tailored pheromones, if memory serves, are cultured bioware, which means very few people offer them and they've probably got quite a waiting list.

Tailor Pheremones aren't cultured necessarily. Cultured versions offer double the effect, so they're prefered, but there are non-cultured versions.

A 1965 Mustang may be legal to own, but that doesn't mean you can't buy one if you have the money just because it's rare. Besides, tailored pheremones would be a popular implant for all sorts of professional people -- Corporate executives, investigative reporters, socialites, even lawyers. Why would it be so hard to find? You also can't get it at chargen unless your GM lets you get away with it. And it's not like it's THAT useful except for a face or you're that hard-up to get your character laid more than you.

The Abstruse One
nezumi
You're right, tailored pheromones aren't cultured. My bad.

However, bioware, unlike most stuff, is difficult to make and only a few people produce it (bioware is relatively new technology and hasn't really established itself yet in the SR universe, plus it has to be grown and so doesn't benefit from production lines). Supply is significantly limited. However, as you pointed out, demand is very high among a crowd which has money to spend. Hence waiting times and prices skyrocket.
The Frumious Bandersnatch
Yet it's still arguably one of the implants to be *most* desired by the *most* people (sex sells, and always will sell). Yet implants that are infinitely more difficult to implant and even manufacture, such as Mnemonic Enhancers and Cerebral Boosters, are more available. The same goes for implants that wouldn't be as in demand as Tailored Pheromones, such as Suprathyroid Glands, Adrenal Pumps, Thermosense Organs, and Orthoskin.

It's one of those "what the fuck were they thinking?" stat blocks.
Siege
Not to mention that people that live by personal interactions would be seriously interested in this kind of bioware:

Salespeople, escorts, PR people and so on.

-Siege
Kanada Ten
I though Availability (Street Index, ect) was only a factor in black market purchases?

Meaning you can go to the appropriate store and buy anything you can get legally - though, for Tailored Pheromones or such, installed and with a sample of your DNA now in the hands of a corp.
The Frumious Bandersnatch
Nope, Availability is Availability. Street Index is the only purely "black market" stat.
John Campbell
QUOTE (bwdemon)
Most entries for drones/vehicles specifically state "(weapon not included)".  It's likely that those entries without the "(weapon not included)" tag slipped by an editor somewhere along the line...

Note that none of the vehicles that say "weapon not included" actually list any weapons. They're all vehicles that list an empty hardpoint/firmpoint but not a weapon. Conversely, none of the vehicles that actually list weapons say "weapon not included". My conclusion is that if it's got a weapon listed, it comes with said weapon, and the "weapon not included" on the other vehicles is to make it clear that the vehicles that simply have empty weapons mounts don't come with a free weapon of your choice or something...

And, yeah, they improved the Strato-9's Availability in Rigger 3 Revised, but it's still too low (by which I mean: can still provide a starting character with an MMG that's impossible to get at chargen otherwise). The R3 Availability calculation system is fundamentally broken, I think. The patch R3R applied helped some, but I think what it really needs is total replacement. I'm not entirely sure what it should be replaced with, but a strict cost-based system doesn't really work. I'm thinking maybe something that bases the vehicle Availabilities on the Availabilities of the components rather than simply on the price tag...
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012