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nerf
What sort of character archetypes are included in a DocWagon HTR team and what sort of 'ware are they packing? I don't imagine your standard Runner team filling this role, but some of the archetypes apply.

You've got the rigger for insertion and extraction, and perhaps fire support. Is he packing an army of drones, or perhaps he's got a back up drone rigger riding shotgun. Your EMTs are probably all packing combat cyber, but how much? Or are they simply chums off the street with a skillwire, wired-2, and a smartlink? Are they using lethal rounds, apds, or gel? What sort of SOP are they working under? Shoot first, resuscitate later? or return fire only?

What about magic support? Every team have a combat mage? or Astral overwatch with spirits?

I'm thinking about GMing some one-shot DocWagon Missions. I think it will be a great way for the group to play around with some big toys we'd normally never get our hands on, and blow off steam between campaigns. It'll be especially fun, once the HTR team starts shooting up some opposition with DocWagon contracts and then has to operate on the bastards they just shot to pieces.
Crusher Bob
I'd guess that getting the customer out and alive is most important as he is the one paying the bills.

I'd also guess an emphasis on less-lethal defensive measures to avoid potential liability. So expects a lot of flash and smoke grenades.

Example:
docwagon chopper mounts a multi magaize automatic grenade launcher. If lays out with a burst of flash-bang grenades to supress and confuse the area, lays down a bunch of smoke to provide concealment, then cranks up its loud speakers to provide a painfully loud thumping randomized bass line. The guys who are going out of the chopper see though the smoke with thermo, their cyber ears edit out the sound ofthe base (since they know exactly when it's going to play) and their AR overlay gives them all the info about where the customer is.

Some sniper drones are out to actually paste anyone who is packing a heavy weapon of who looks like he is going to fire on the extraction team, but the main weapons will be dis-orientation via sound and flash and smoke.

If things get too out of hand, then the AGL just switches to teh real explosive grenade magazine and an 5-8 round burst of air timed grenades lands in the offenders pants, thank you for choosing docwagon for all your chunky salsa needs.
Slump
I would imagine they also have battle-tak (?) gear. I also agree that flash grenades, smoke and stun rounds are going to be the order of the day. They tend to seriously reduce the combat effectiveness of anyone in the area, and docwagon isn't there to fight, so who cares if nobody can see past 10 feet to shoot.
Gyro the Greek Sandwich Pirate
Also, I would imagine that in most places DocWagon or similar services operate, most of the time when a DocWagon team sets down, whoever they've come for is more or less off-limits, though that depends on how desperate you are to kill your target right now.

Attacking a DocWagon team is simply asking for trouble. Whatever conflict you're currently experiencing, you just added another well-armed hostile force to the list. Should you get ID'd at all, forget getting any kind of reasonably priced service in the future, and expect a bounty or worse if you manage to injure or kill any of the DocWagon personnel.

If you're really slick (or desperate), you'll still be able to kill whoever they're going for without injuring any of them-that'll piss 'em off still (paying customer, makes them look bad, probably still put a bounty on your head to discourage others from doing likewise), but not nearly as much as attacking them directly.

Now, most of the gangers out of, say, a Z-zone aren't likely going to care about any of the above-they are, in general, crazy and excessively violent. Megacorps will care, but they're smart-they'll wait until after you get picked up to kill you. Makes a lot more sense than pissing off DocWagon.

Hm. Assuming the above is reasonable, it brings up some incentives runners would have for disguising themselves as a DocWagon team...though again, you probably really don't want to piss off DocWagon if you can help it.
cristomeyers
I could definitly see the extraction team having gel/stun rounds, but I would also imagine there's a sniper on the chopper or a well armed drone ready to wax anyone that proves to be a hassle.

I seem to remember that back in the day the person being extracted was liable for any loss or injury to the DocWagon team during extraction.
Crusher Bob
But then docwagon would have to show that they took 'all due dilligence' to prevent the damage and loss. Much easier on both you and the customers to not lose any lives.
Demerzel
QUOTE (Crusher Bob)
But then docwagon would have to show that they took 'all due dilligence' to prevent the damage and loss.

This is one of those cases of injecting modern day elements into the sixth world. In the sixth world governments are pansy arse can't get anything done. The judicial system is corrupt, bought lock stock and barrel. Corps don't allow any real liability cases to progress wether they are against them or a corporate rival. Dead Presidents do better Tort Reform than sitting Presidents.
Kagetenshi
Lethal rounds, no non-lethal munitions anywhere except for maybe a spare magazine in the ambulance that no one ever touches, boosted reflexes and combat drugs, maybe some Smartlinks if you get a particularly well-performing team. Ambulance possibly driven by a VCR-1 Rigger or maybe someone with a datajack, drones are probably outside of the budget.

Of course, if you're super-platinumů

~J
MITJA3000+
Neo'A's guide to real life had IIRC a nice section about DocWagon. Probably haven't changed their procedures that much.

I would also think that Lone Star (or the like) would have a symbiotic relationship with DocWagon (or the like), so that when an officer goes down the 'Wagon would do their best to help, and likewise, when DocWagon responds to a call that might be crime related, and thus possibly violent, Lone Star would work with them. This of course depends on the relations of said corporations.
FlakJacket
One of the old Missions adventures had the players posing as members of a DocWagon team at the behest of the management to infiltrate and investigate some of their operations. IIRC it stated that the teams had to use non-lethal weapons or ammunition such as gel rounds or narcojet pistols.
Kagetenshi
So NAGRL doesn't agree with me entirely. Basic rundown:

Entirely or primarily lethal munitions. Less-lethal isn't mentioned at all.

"[ů]major ordinance", if you believe Blacknight. Cybered up, possibly some physads as well.

May, if you believe Manta, indiscriminately fire into crowds when they don't have to. Reason: some of the people in the crowd might have DocWagon contracts, and on most common contracts they make money on HTR calls.

HTR ground vehicles actually replace less-lethal munitions (like the water cannon) with light machine guns. These are apparently loaded with gel rounds some quantity of the time. The air vehicles mount heavy machine guns, and sometimes miniguns or assault cannons. Needless to say, those are not less-lethal.

Long story short, don't expect to be seeing too much less-lethal activity from them.

~J
2bit
HRT members are probably wielding SMGs as opposed to ARs because of the ease of use factor.
Dentris
Well, I'm currently Gming offline a DocWagon campaign. It's surprising how the team closely ressemble a shadowrun team.

There's the combat medic, the ambulance driver (rigger), the nurse (aka the face), the three tanks (2 streetsam and one mage) and the scout (covert ops specialist)

(Of course, the two streetsams usually use gel rounds during a rescue mission...usually)
hyzmarca
I Imagine that Docwagon HTR teams are scarier than the Star. I mean, The Star has to arrest you if you throw down your weapons and surrender in the presence of functioning news cameras that they cannot reasonably confiscate. Doc Wagon can shoot you anyway just to be safe.
Kagetenshi
But they'll try to just wing you so if you have a contract there'll be a dispatch.

~J
hyzmarca
They'll be a dispatch anyway, if you have a contract. And they'll do everything in their power to try to save you. Heroic medical intervention often costs far more than the stardard, even when it fails. They can, at the very lest, keep your braindead, soul-dead corpse on a ventilator and feeding tube until your bank account runs dry.
Grinder
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
I Imagine that Docwagon HTR teams are scarier than the Star. I mean, The Star has to arrest you if you throw down your weapons and surrender in the presence of functioning news cameras that they cannot reasonably confiscate. Doc Wagon can shoot you anyway just to be safe.

That's the way I portray DocWagon HTR teams usually. Shoot first and don't ask questions.
Wounded Ronin
I think that for entertainment value and for humor DocWagon needs to always appear with overwhelming force and needs to use methods of attack which are likely to produce collateral damage. They always use grenades, rockets, or mortars to bombard the areas around where their client is to flush out any hostiles who may be waiting and while they're picking the client up they use as much multidirectional suppressive fire from mounted machine guns as is possible. All that is left when they're done is a mountain of hot brass and dozens of moaning injured bystanders.

EDIT: Oh, I know. They also have a pair of snipers with semi automatic scoped rifles in 7.62 who immediately begin sighting targets and picking off anyone who "looks suspicious", meaning anyone with any weapon of any kind. Exploding heads in the distance while all the noisy mayhem is going down at close range.

Because, honestly, that's really funny and a lot more entertaining for the purpose of something happening in a game. It also makes it more believable when they manage to extract client player characters from really terrible situations and helps to justify their high prices.
hyzmarca
One of the bigger flavor issues with Docwagon is how they deal with the local authorities.

If say you are one of the North Hollywood bank robbers and your biomoniter registers a gunshot wound after you've just killed a couple of cops on life TV, will the Docwagon HRT swoop in and start killing cops in order to extract you.

Personally, I say yes. Docwagon is a extraterritorial corp its vehicles are sovereign soil and its employees have immunity from prosecution for anything they might do outside of Docwagon territory while acting as a docwagon employee.

But how far does this extend. If you're in a supermax prison for life and you happen to be shivved, will they send in a full team to extract you and get you to a hospital, essentially making docwagon the world's most capable freelance prisonbreakers. Will they respond to your contract if your near-fatal wounds are incurred during a state-sanctioned execution?

Its funny to have prisoners buy the cheapest possible docwagon contract and then stub their toes so that they can be rescued, but it is sort of unrealistic that nations and corps would tollerate that level of intervention.
jrpigman
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ Apr 9 2007, 05:45 PM)
They always use grenades, rockets, or mortars to bombard the areas around where their client is

*rolls a d6*
*comes up 6*

Okay you take 6 boxes of overflow from your doctor's motar round.
TonkaTuff
As DocWagon is a corporation first, and a medical service second, they're subject to the same limits of extraterritoriality as anyone else. Just as Lone Star can't legally persue you onto another corp's property without express permission, DW can't swoop in to MegaCorp's research facility and rescue you - superplatinum or no superplatinum. Though with the nature of their business DocWagon will probably have more standing permissions from other corps than even LS, in all likelihood those permissions are restricted to calls for the property owner's employees (covered under the group contract) and legitimate customers - neither of which applies to runners in the process of committing a crime.


In all probability, whoever's currently trying to kill you is worth more to DocWagon as a customer anyway. DW already has your 100,000 nuyen in the bank, and they don't get any extra money for sending in the big guns for you. If you're pinned down in a Novatech warehouse and your buddy is bleeding out on the floor beside you, the sound of an incoming HTR chopper is probably going to be less-than-comforting.
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (TonkaTuff)


In all probability, whoever's currently trying to kill you is worth more to DocWagon as a customer anyway. DW already has your 100,000 nuyen in the bank, and they don't get any extra money for sending in the big guns for you. If you're pinned down in a Novatech warehouse and your buddy is bleeding out on the floor beside you, the sound of an incoming HTR chopper is probably going to be less-than-comforting.

That's a very reasonable take on things but I would propose the following alternative take on the grounds that it makes for a more fun and outlandish gaming experience:



John Mullins said in an interview that the problem with being a mercenary is that unlike being a member of an official armed service that you probably won't get medevac if you are injured in a combat zone and that this is very, very bad.

Now, in the world of Shadowrun, we can interpret the setting in such a way that there are lots of mercenaries, aka Shadowrunners, since there appears to be a booming market for their highly-paid services.

Therefore, we could argue that DocWagon exists in its present state with its expensive and highly trained HTR teams primarily because it markets itself as a medevac service to successful shadowrunners who have decided that they want to make a long-term career out of shadowrunning.

We could argue further that corporate paramilitary forces probably maintain their own medevac resources and therefore have no need to contract this out to DocWagon which probably would be less reliable on the whole than in-house medevac. This would be especially true when the corporate security forces are fighting on their home turf.

I personally find this take more fun.
Kagetenshi
I don't think it's reasonable at all. What's the point of super-platinum if they won't extract you from places they have no legal right to be?

~J
eidolon
It has always seemed to me to be pretty pointless for any runner to have a DW contract. They won't come get you on corp property, they won't come get you if you're obviously in your condition as a result of performing illegal activity.

Basically, my readings of material covering DW have left me with the impression that they exist for the average wage slave (low end contracts, possibly provided by their corp) and executives (high end contracts). That's been my take anyway. It just seems like in 90% of the situations in which a runner could need DW, DW wouldn't come to their aid anyway.
PBTHHHHT
QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Apr 10 2007, 08:54 AM)
I don't think it's reasonable at all. What's the point of super-platinum if they won't extract you from places they have no legal right to  be?

~J

If said corp has a number of super platinum exec clients, and thousands of standard to gold clients, who would be pissed if Doc Wagon goes in guns blazing on one of their sites. Then yeah, I can expect Doc Wagon to NOT do it for pissing off a larger customer base.

of course, the corp may have its own medical services in the case of the megacorps. Unless they find it cheaper to resource it out.
Kagetenshi
But their willingness to go in guns blazing is a feature. What if an executive gets injured while on hostile territory?

~J
fourstring_samurai
has anyone else noticed that the fluff for the varying services mentions that docwagon is a franchise?
Demerzel
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
But their willingness to go in guns blazing is a feature. What if an executive gets injured while on hostile territory?

~J

I'm pretty sure that the description in SR4 indicates specifically they won't violate extraterritorial corporate sovereignty. So if hostile territory includes a rival corp you may be SOLů
hyzmarca
But HTR contracts are rather useless if that is the case. Besides, there it isn't violating corporate soverignty if none of the HTR team members are captured alive. In that case, it is an unfortunate case of criminals stealing docwagon equipment and using it to commit a crime.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Demerzel)
I'm pretty sure that the description in SR4

FWIW, I don't consider that admissible, and haven't been able to find any similar provisions in previous editions.

~J
Dentris
DocWagon and CrashCart are just examples of corporations offering medical services on the ''street'' level, especially useful for runners. The term DocWagon is just as common in th 2070 as Kleenex is in 2007. A Kleenex is not the actual name, but the brand is so common people refers the service as ''DocWagon''.

Back on topic, HTR teams do not have all the rights. They are paramedics first and foremost, not serial killers or assassin. In the above example of the bank robber, the police would probably allow DocWagon to extract its client because they would know where to find him...The robber will probably try to run away before being caught by them. DocWagon's client are not DocWagon citizens, therefore have no rights on DocWagon territory and can be sent to Lone Star on demand. In fact, the contract is a medical contract, not a bodyguard or personal protection. Once the client's life is no longer in danger, he is out by himself.
Demerzel
Is DocWagon or CrashCart or any other version extraterritorial?

Remember not every corp has Extrateritorial powers, most in fact don't. Even subsidiaries of corps that do don't necessarily get it. That Stuffershack isn't part of Aztechnology's Corporate Extrateritoriality, Lone Star can and will arrest the guy stocking the SoyMilk if the feel like it.
Kagetenshi
The Stuffer Shack just needs a sign put up to make it extraterritorial, though it may be already. I don't have my copy of Corporate Download on-hand, but I'm pretty sure DocWagon is AA.

~J
PBTHHHHT
It'll probably be in the terms of service/contract with the client. DocWagon won't go in to hostile territoriality to extract a client and can get out of it legally/contractually. They already have the money from the client, if they violate their terms of service/outside of the coverage area, then DocWagon is off the hook from going in.

It's not worth their assets for tangling with a larger corp (especially the Big 10). The big 10 can hit back using any evidence in a legal actions which would far outstrip the value of that client. That is only the legal aspect, the other area would be hired runs in retaliations, economic strikes/sanctions (who provides some of the raw materials/goods/supplies/etc for DocWagon?) and political (the corp can add a little leverage on their politicians to hurt DocWagon in specific regions just as punishment). That's only if the larger corp feels like punishing DocWagon a little bit.

edit: if you're wondering about the legal actions. Legal actions between corporations can easily go into the millions. That super platinum contract is only worth how much? Bah, that won't even cover the legal fees.
jrpigman
As far as I'm concerned, DocWagon is the most terrifying corp out there. They have a genetic sample for every single person that has a contract with them. That means they have a ritual link to every single person that has a contract with them. Sure, you can hire a lawyer to sue them, but I guaruntee someone that the lawyer loves has a DocWagon contract, and DocWagon could very easily say "Lose this case or you / your mom / your kid gets astrally detonated."

DocWagon is one of those companies that you don't piss off.
PBTHHHHT
If the megacorp has in-house lawyers who are megacorp citizens born and bred. Then no, Docwagon will not have their genetic material, unless the megacorp has a contract with DocWagon. Which they probably do not.
That said, if the corp is a major DocWagon client, then DocWagon will NOT be going onto that corp's turf guns ablazing for an outside runner who happens to have a DocWagon contract. Their single contract does not justify pissing off a much larger contract (millions versus that single 100,000 account? yeah right).
Demerzel
Genetic sample != ritual link.

Barring Kagetenshi declaiming this as invalid because it's based on SR4, ritual samples must be preserved in a special way, and chemical preservatives will ruin a ritual sample's value as a ritual sample.

No reason to believe that the DW uses magical ritual preserving techniques when 1) chemical methods will be cheaper and still allow you to clone from them, and 2) clientelle would in many cases prefer not having a ritual link on some corps vault.
eidolon
Heck, even if it took till SR4 to codify it, DW hasn't ever had ritual-link worthy material in my games.

RE: Franchises. IIRC, it is touched on that when DW first started up, there were only a few in a few places, and that it wasn't until later that they started offering franchise opportunities. Also, IIRC, it's hard to get one (comparatively) and they police them very closely.

I could be remembering this incorrectly, of course.
jrpigman
Spoilsports nyahnyah.gif

Really, why wouldn't DW want to keep a piece of the genetic material you gave as a ritual sample? Thats just insurance against the future. As far as born-and-bred megacorp citizens go, not EVERYone associted with that company can be completely isolated to born-and-bred citizens. It doesn't have to be the lawyer, either. Memebers of a Jury, Security guards's girlfriends, people that come in to fill the snack machine - all of them could potentially have DW contracts, and can thus be blackmailed, if we can assume that DW keeps a piece viable for ritual link. The sheer number of people you can threaten with such information is mind boggling, and potentially a really fun plot hook.

On the other hand, we could assume that DW won't keep a piece of genetic information ritually viable because megacorps are known for their honesty and integrity, and would never do something questionably moral in order to increase their own power.
PBTHHHHT
Not practical. Once they start doing all this, why would there be future clients? No one will want to use that particular corporation and that will hit them a lot more because corporation will look at the bottom line, profits.
bibliophile20
They could just do it for the "special cases". Sure, not every Tom, Dick and Harry off the street or corp enclave with a basic account is going to be worth keeping a material link to. But shadowrunners? High level corp people? I'm sure that, in the applications office, there is a list of "Factors to watch for" that will have them taking extra "care" with that person's sample.

Or how about this scenario:
Person A has a DocWagon contract, which means that he has a genetic sample in the vault. Organization B is in the process of hunting Person A down, but they can't quite catch him. Then someone in Organization B has a brainstorm (perhaps after watching DocWagon lift their quarry to safety) and Organization B "suggests" to someone in DocWagon that they would find it advantageous for Person A's sample--or perhaps even the entire vault that it is in--to be suddenly "lost" or damaged. Having the vault destroyed would probably work even better, because DocWagon could blame shadowrunners and send out a general message to everyone whose samples were in that vault that they need to come in for a new sampling. Everyone grumbles and moans, but they come anyway, right? And in that group lining up for a new tissue sample is "Person A" who, in a few short hours, will have a Manabolt appear out of nowhere and toast him.
Darkest Angel
Sure because runners write "Shadowrunner" in the occupation box. And use thir real name.
PBTHHHHT
yes, didn't you get the memo?
Darkest Angel
SR4 thing I guess? spin.gif
Demerzel
Funny I thought it was SR3R....
mmu1
Chances are, given SR's tech level, that the genetic samples for everyone would actually be stored as computer data.

Once you have completely automated and rapid sequencing, and can synthesize DNA to order (and you pretty much need to be able to do that, to selectively clone organs and create Bioware), it just makes no sense to do it any other way. Certainly not when dealing with a number of samples as high as what Doc Wagon would need to handle.
PBTHHHHT
At that point, would the recreated piece of material be considered part of the original specimen? Would there be an actual link to the individual or does it become something else entirely since the new material was never alive or part of the whole. You're gonna run into opposition to this concerning magic and ritual link. Plus, would this new material be considered heavily synthesized? Would that affect it in its use in the ritual? (Probably not, but hey, something else to raise up).

The cloned organs and such, I think do not have much of a link to the original donor because there's no link. Sure it has the same dna sequence, but what is that on the magic/astral level?
bibliophile20
QUOTE (Darkest Angel)
Sure because runners write "Shadowrunner" in the occupation box. And use thir real name.

Nope. I believe the correct phrase is "Freelance Asset Adjuster" smile.gif

No, seriously, there would undoubtedly be factors that they would watch out for in their prospective clients--and while they probably keep that info "in-house" as it were, I don't doubt that it would be analyzed, like any and all other data is in 2070 SR.

Demerzel
QUOTE (PBTHHHHT)
The cloned organs and such, I think do not have much of a link to the original donor because there's no link. Sure it has the same dna sequence, but what is that on the magic/astral level?

I don't think this is an issue. If chemical preservation instantly turns a sample that was valid as a ritual sample into something that is not, then there's no concern over a cloned organ becoming a ritual sample. At least not until it's implanted and begins attuning to the owner's aura.

My point is that DW is very unlikely to have anything that is valid as a ritual sample, at least not for very long. And I'd imagine that advertising a ritual safe sampling and preservation process would be a boon and done because it's 1) Cheaper, and 2) a selling feature...
hyzmarca
The is actually an advantage to the possession of ritual links by medical professionals, long-distance ritual healing. Even if you're stuck in the Antarctica with no hope of medical intervention, a ritual team can still cast a pretty good heal spell on you.
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