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Cyberlimb House Rules
I was wondering what House Rules people have come up with for Cyberlimbs in their campaigns to make Cyberlimbs something that charcters might actually want...
Anyways, here are some that I've been thinking about putting in...
- Cyberlimb Body/Strength/Agility and possibly Armor does not use capacy within the limb... (I'm leaning towards including Armor just to keep the Cyberlimb Enhancement rules as simple as possible.)
- A Cyber Torso is only needed if a character seeks to raise a Cyberlimb's Stat above his unmodified Racial Cap.
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Cyberlimb Questions
- Ok, I've never quite been sure how to handle Cyberlimb Armor, surely it isn't meant to simply stack with normal armor, perhaps its supposed to be averaged first? Then a single Cyberlimb with Rating 4 Armor will give 1 Point of Armor after rounding...
- How do people interupt the partial limb rule on page 335 that states that a partial limb's stats only applies to tests involving that limb? Is there really any reason to buy up Body or Armor for a partial limb other then for damage tests against that limb only? (I would assume something akin to sticking your cyberhand into a meat-grinder.)
- And do people give the extra Physical Damage box for partial limbs?
The cyberlimb rules have always driven me insane...
Full Version: Cyberlimb House Rules plus some questions...
| QUOTE |
| I was wondering what House Rules people have come up with for Cyberlimbs in their campaigns... |
All Cyberlimbs come with Body, Strength, and Agility attributes of 3 plus racial
modifier (p. 335). The restriction for enhancements higher than 3 does not apply.
Cyberlimbs have the following Capacity (obvious/synthetic): Full Arm: 20/10,
Full Leg: 25/15, Hand/Foot: 6/3, Lower Arm: 12/6, Lower Leg: 15/10.
Cyberlimb Enhancement use up Capacity as follows: Armor: (Rating),
Body/Strength/Agility: (Rating/2) (round up).
Cyberlimb Armor (p. 335-336) is added together from all cyberlimbs and then
divided by 4 (round down); it stacks with worn armor.
| QUOTE |
| And do people give the extra Physical Damage box for partial limbs? |
Nope, only for full replacements.
Bye
Thanee
| QUOTE (Thanee) |
| Cyberlimb Armor (p. 335-336) is added together from all cyberlimbs and then divided by 4 (round down); it stacks with worn armor. |
Er ... no. Page 335 states that attributes are averaged, and last I checked, Armor Rating wasn't an attribute.
Even so, a lot of people feel that armor should be averaged like attributes, and play it that way. I disagree with these folks, for a number of reasons:
- The cost for one point of armor rating plus a cyberlimb is in-line with costs for one point of dermal plating. More points on the cyberlimb is more economical, but I feel that is acceptable as a "volume discount," plus the opportunity costs involved.
- Putting on a helmet gives a character armor without having to average it across the entire body. The counter-argument to this point is that the averaging has already been calculated in, but my rebuttal is that an arm or a leg has as much or more surface area as a helmet covers, and it's hard to believe that cyberlimb armor is less effective than the material in a helmet.
- An armor vest or armor jacket grants its full value, even though it does not cover the entire body. One counter-argument is the same as the one for helmets, with the same rebuttal. Another counter-argument is that such armor can be avoided with a called shot; the rebuttal is simply to point out that the same can be applied to armored cyberlimbs.
- A single point of armor has an opportunity cost of two attribute points. This makes each point of armor four times more expensive (as far as opportunity cost is concerned) than Mystic Armor, albeit without the astral benefit (which is probably a trivial point).
These arguments have led me to conclude that an armor point is an armor point. The FAQ has no help on this point, so for Official Word we may have to wait until Augmentation.
| QUOTE (Aaron) |
| Er ... no. |
| QUOTE |
| Cyberlimb House Rules |
Bye
Thanee
| QUOTE (Thanee @ Apr 12 2007, 08:13 AM) | ||||
Bye Thanee |
[If this is a cute way of saying "I was posting my house rule; the page reference wasn't actually a reference to rules, just a way of saying that armor for cyberlimbs exists," then ... ]
Ah! I'm sorry, I thought you were citing a rule.
[If not, then ... ]
Huh?
| QUOTE (Aaron) |
| [If this is a cute way of saying "I was posting my house rule; the page reference wasn't actually a reference to rules, just a way of saying that armor for cyberlimbs exists," then ... ] |
Almost... the page reference is mostly a help for quick lookup of the actual rules.
But yeah, the above is, of course, my house rule for cyberlimbs, which is what was asked for in this thread.
Bye
Thanee
I have a house rule that obvious cyber limbs do physical damage and not stun.
If you want to do it, you can do partial damage boxes for partial cyber limbs. half arm = half box, hand or foot = quarter box, round down after all is computed.
from what I recall, the official intended use of armor for cyberlimbs was to be extra protection for that cyberlimb in the case of a called shot. However, I lean in aarons direction for armor. perhaps, counting it as encumbering armor so it doesn't get too out of hand. (and also so it isn't stackable with wearable armor)
If you want to do it, you can do partial damage boxes for partial cyber limbs. half arm = half box, hand or foot = quarter box, round down after all is computed.
from what I recall, the official intended use of armor for cyberlimbs was to be extra protection for that cyberlimb in the case of a called shot. However, I lean in aarons direction for armor. perhaps, counting it as encumbering armor so it doesn't get too out of hand. (and also so it isn't stackable with wearable armor)
| QUOTE |
| - Cyberlimb Body/Strength/Agility and possibly Armor does not use capacy within the limb... (I'm leaning towards including Armor just to keep the Cyberlimb Enhancement rules as simple as possible.) - A Cyber Torso is only needed if a character seeks to raise a Cyberlimb's Stat above his unmodified Racial Cap. |
This is what I'm going with until I find something I like better:
Cyberlimbs: Cyberlimbs Come with rating 3 Body, Agility, and Strength as normal, but attribute increases do not cost capacity until it exceeds your body's natural unaugmented rating. If your natural rating increases during the course of the game, see your local street doc for an adjustment and you'll get that capacity back. Armor costs capacity as normal.
I never made a rule for armor, but I mostly like what Thanee wrote. I would probably use:
| QUOTE |
| Cyberlimb Armor (p. 335-336) is added together from all cyberlimbs and then divided by 4 (round down); it stacks with worn armor. |
except I would weigh cybertorso armor at full or half value instead of 1/4.
As a lopped off limb is a lopped off limb and it's hard to envisage a better quality arm costing less essence, I have cyberware grade affect capacity in the same way they would essence. It could get a little silly if someone wanted to stick three pistols in their deltaware cyberarm... but then they'd be deltaware custom pistols costing 10x the cost, so why not? Mainly I see it as a way of building cyberlimbs that are as powerful and tough as I imagine they could be.
Why is it hard to imagine a better quality arm costing less essence? 
You don't lose essence for losing the arm. Essence isn't measured in kilograms.
You don't lose essence for losing the arm. Essence isn't measured in kilograms.
Aaron, if you assume that Cyberlimb Armor stacks at full value then what is to keep someone from lopping off four partial limbs and walking around with +16 Stackable Armor for 1.8 Essense before counting Grade reductions?
| QUOTE (2bit) |
| Why is it hard to imagine a better quality arm costing less essence? You don't lose essence for losing the arm. Essence isn't measured in kilograms. |
Exactly. Essence Loss is more like how far it takes you away from being human or something along those lines... and better grades make them a better fit on that behalf.
Bye
Thanee
What I did was to simply remove Capacity altogether. I limit characters to about one "big item" per unjointed section (for example, one character has a toolikit and a sat link in his arm).
The very concept that there would be a meaningfully limited amount of devices integratable into a leg when there are multiple devices integratable into an eye is absurd.
-Frank
The very concept that there would be a meaningfully limited amount of devices integratable into a leg when there are multiple devices integratable into an eye is absurd.
-Frank
| QUOTE (Ravor) |
| Aaron, if you assume that Cyberlimb Armor stacks at full value then what is to keep someone from lopping off four partial limbs and walking around with +16 Stackable Armor for 1.8 Essense before counting Grade reductions? |
Nothing.
Let's assume you're the player that wants the +16/+16 armor. Before you did that, I'd point out that you will have spent 44,800¥ for the privilege. Plus the fact that you'd have to run to make that kind of money, since a starting character can't purchase that much armor. I'd also mention the fact that you're stuck with average (or possible slightly better than average) statistics, having filled most of the space in those limbs with armor. I'd also point out the social and security issues with having obvious cyberware. I might also point out that hackers can take over your limbs if either they get close enough or compromise a system that is close enough, such as your commlink. I'd also mention that if I can think of things like hacking your limbs, then folks in the Shadowrun universe have probably already written how-to files on the subject.
After all that, if you're still cool with it, knock yourself out. "Damage Sponge" is a perfectly legitimate position on a shadowrun team. Just make sure you've got a good Willpower.
Or alternatively you limit the amount of armour you can install on a limb. Dermal plating is limited to 3 ranks, after all. Setting the exact number might take a little playtesting though.
| QUOTE (Aaron) |
| I might also point out that hackers can take over your limbs if either they get close enough or compromise a system that is close enough, such as your commlink. |
That's only possible, if the sammy is really dumb.
Bye
Thanee
I have cyberlimb houserules on my website in my sig. Though I have yet to test them since our campaign dissolved ;(
- Cyberlimbs have no body rating.
- Cyberlimbs do physical damage. Full arms do Str/2 + 1 damage.
- Cyberlimbs cannot have armor, with the exception of cybertorsos and skulls, which apply their armor’s full rating to damage resistance tests. Armor is capped at 6.
- A cybertorso is not required for higher cyberlimb attributes.
- Cyberlimb strength is capped at 9 and agility at 6.
- Troll cyberlimbs have 50% (round up) greater capacity and cost 10% more (most of the cost involved is the surgery, not the hardware).
I'm also going to add these rules next time I GM.
- Only full limbs add a box to the damage track.
- Full cyberlimbs can have a maximum of 1 armor each.
- Cyberlimbs have no body rating.
- Cyberlimbs do physical damage. Full arms do Str/2 + 1 damage.
- Cyberlimbs cannot have armor, with the exception of cybertorsos and skulls, which apply their armor’s full rating to damage resistance tests. Armor is capped at 6.
- A cybertorso is not required for higher cyberlimb attributes.
- Cyberlimb strength is capped at 9 and agility at 6.
- Troll cyberlimbs have 50% (round up) greater capacity and cost 10% more (most of the cost involved is the surgery, not the hardware).
I'm also going to add these rules next time I GM.
- Only full limbs add a box to the damage track.
- Full cyberlimbs can have a maximum of 1 armor each.
| QUOTE (FrankTrollman) |
| What I did was to simply remove Capacity altogether. I limit characters to about one "big item" per unjointed section (for example, one character has a toolikit and a sat link in his arm). The very concept that there would be a meaningfully limited amount of devices integratable into a leg when there are multiple devices integratable into an eye is absurd. -Frank |
Which encourages characters to be mildly cybered, which is probably the 'intended look' for SR characters anyway.
| QUOTE (Thanee) | ||
That's only possible, if the sammy is really dumb. |
Not necessarily. Back when I was playing a hacker, we were under attack by another team of shadowrunners, including their main muscle who sported two cyberarms and had already beaten through a wall with them. Our gillette and our adept were busy flanking them and dealing with a critical glitch plus a three-story drop, respectively, so our mage held their double-pile-driver at bay with a physical barrier long enough for me to get into his commlink and turn his arms off. They were definitely not dumb, and it could have gone either way, but if his arms had been made of meat we probably wouldn't have been able to stop him.
Well I'd say that he was dumb for linking his arms to his PAN in the first place, what did he have going on that his arms needed to be connected to his commlink for?
Exactly. Just don't link them... there is absolutely no way you can hack them (FAQ also states this, IIRC).
Bye
Thanee
Bye
Thanee
If I recall correctly, the FAQ mentions that the trade-off for not having wireless cyberware is more maintenance problems, and goes on to say the GM determines which devices are computerized.
EDIT: Now that I think about it, I seem to remember the BBB specifically mentioning the hacking of cyberarms.
EDIT: Now that I think about it, I seem to remember the BBB specifically mentioning the hacking of cyberarms.
Why? Just because the world went wireless all of a sudden cyberlimbs need more maintenance?
| QUOTE (Superbum) |
| Why? Just because the world went wireless all of a sudden cyberlimbs need more maintenance? |
Got me swingin'. I seem to remember that the FAQ mentions that wireless technology is cheap, and so most devices are now built with it. Plus it's definitely more convenient (I'd love to, for example, be able to check the oil on my car just by looking at it. So maybe it's less about the amount of maintenance and more about the interface.
Keep in mind that the BBB also mentions that one can ask for non-wireless (wirelessless?) devices, at the cost of being looked at funny.
No, I agree with you. I love all the wireless stuff. Just thought it was a funny statement that a cyberlimb might need more maintenance because its not wireless.
I imagine it'd be more preventive maintenance- much like we change the oil in our cars about every 3000 miles. If we instead had a sensor that indicated (much like the filter on my water purifier) that the oil had reached a certain threshold, we wouldn't have the 3000 mile rule. We'd just do it when it needed it. Thus, less maintenance.
Personally I see one simple solution to the whole hacking cyberlimbs/more maintenance thing: it's called an on/off switch. Day to day, you flip it on, and your PAN gives you a heads-up on how your oil level is. Go on a run, check to make sure it'll all nice and happy, fix it if it isn't, then shut down every wireless link that isn't strictly necessary. Heck, if you can, anything that is necessary, let the guys at the shop look at you strange when you ask for a fiber port install. Kick your commlink wireless link off, let everything talk via wire, and leave the opposing hackers fuming about how they hate fighting 'old school' runners.
Personally I see one simple solution to the whole hacking cyberlimbs/more maintenance thing: it's called an on/off switch. Day to day, you flip it on, and your PAN gives you a heads-up on how your oil level is. Go on a run, check to make sure it'll all nice and happy, fix it if it isn't, then shut down every wireless link that isn't strictly necessary. Heck, if you can, anything that is necessary, let the guys at the shop look at you strange when you ask for a fiber port install. Kick your commlink wireless link off, let everything talk via wire, and leave the opposing hackers fuming about how they hate fighting 'old school' runners.
| QUOTE |
| I have cyberlimb houserules on my website in my sig. Though I have yet to test them since our campaign dissolved ;( - Cyberlimbs have no body rating. - Cyberlimbs do physical damage. Full arms do Str/2 + 1 damage. - Cyberlimbs cannot have armor, with the exception of cybertorsos and skulls, which apply their armor’s full rating to damage resistance tests. Armor is capped at 6. - A cybertorso is not required for higher cyberlimb attributes. - Cyberlimb strength is capped at 9 and agility at 6. - Troll cyberlimbs have 50% (round up) greater capacity and cost 10% more (most of the cost involved is the surgery, not the hardware). I'm also going to add these rules next time I GM. - Only full limbs add a box to the damage track. - Full cyberlimbs can have a maximum of 1 armor each. |
I like those rules. IMO, I think a base cyberlimb should have the str rating of the character attribute. A human with 6 str is probably bigger than a 3 str human. If the limb is custom fit, I think he should have a limb that match the wearer.
If not, why a 4 str or higher human will want to go to cyber replacement.
Oh I've also decided to double the capacity of all cyberlimbs, provided of course that the installed items can pass the sniff test...
Alpha/Betaware rules affect capacity.
(Ex: an Alphaware Cyber Heavy Pistol costs 4.8 points of capacity instead of 6)
Seemed pretty logical to me.
(Ex: an Alphaware Cyber Heavy Pistol costs 4.8 points of capacity instead of 6)
Seemed pretty logical to me.
| QUOTE (Ravor) |
| Oh I've also decided to double the capacity of all cyberlimbs, provided of course that the installed items can pass the sniff test... |
So you've decided to allow peple to have a total of four fingertip compartments in their synthetic hand? That's very generous of you, what with the fact that there are five fingertips in that hand.
Honestly, once you've instituted the sniff test, there's no reason to even keep track of capacity units for cyberlimbs of any sort. A biological arm can contain a strength, agility, and body of 9, why can't a cyberlimb?
-Frank
| QUOTE (G.NOME) |
| Alpha/Betaware rules affect capacity. (Ex: an Alphaware Cyber Heavy Pistol costs 4.8 points of capacity instead of 6) Seemed pretty logical to me. |
I use almost the same system, except that I keep the installed items' capacity costs and use the grade to determine how much extra capacity the limb has. Mentioned it earlier in the thread. I'm glad someone else uses this as well.
And I'm almost afraid to ask this, but what is the "sniff test" ?
-K.
| QUOTE (knasser) |
| And I'm almost afraid to ask this, but what is the "sniff test" ? |
Sniff Test, it means that I'm looking for Bullshit.
| QUOTE (FrankTrollman) |
| So you've decided to allow peple to have a total of four fingertip compartments in their synthetic hand? That's very generous of you, what with the fact that there are five fingertips in that hand. Honestly, once you've instituted the sniff test, there's no reason to even keep track of capacity units for cyberlimbs of any sort. A biological arm can contain a strength, agility, and body of 9, why can't a cyberlimb? |
Aye, however remember that I've also ruled that Enhancements, including Armor doesn't count towards capacity at all. Still I don't know, you do have a REALLY good point, and one that I'm going to have to seriously consider.
Oh well, since my wife is wanting to try her hand at DMing Shadowrun again I'll see how my current House Rules play out there and very well may ignore capacity altogether when I take up the reigns again.
These are my Cyberlimb Houserules. I implemented them to 1) stop trolls having tiny T-Rex arms 2) encourage people to take cyberlimbs (I love the steampunk thing) and 3) robots are cool. I also base armour encumberance off strength, not body.
Cybertorsos and cyberskulls don’t have a strength or agility rating (look at my strong head! My head can bench press 200 kilos!), nor are these limbs counted when working out attribute averages for strength or agility. As they are just shells the existing muscles are still operational. Body is still applied as normal (representing reinforcing and structural integrity)
Starting attributes for cyberlimbs are the average attributes for the characters race. (Human = Body 3, Agility 3, Strength 3. Elf = Body 3, Agility 4, Strength 3. Ork = Body 6, Agility 3, Strength 5. Dwarf = Body 4, Agility 3, Strength 5. Troll = Body 7, Agility 3, Strength 7). Cost remains the same at character generation. Troll and Dwarf cyberlimbs cost +25% in game.
Armour on cyberlimbs is added together to work out a characters armour, and is added to worn armour like a helmet or shield. For example Sgt Rod Farva of Knight Errant has a body and strength score of 4, a cyberarm with body 4 and 2 points of armour, and is wearing an armour vest (armour 6). He has 8 armour and suffers no penalty to quickness and reaction. If he were to wear a helmet (armour 2) he would have 10 armour and would suffer –1 to both his agility and reaction. The encumbrance rules for armour is taken from the average strength score of the cybered character.
Punching with a cyberlimb causes (STR/2+3)P damage, like bone lacing.
Synthetic Cyberlimbs feel natural if you touch them. Technology is already at a point where we can make synthetic flesh feel natural. I see no need to make it worse in the future.
Most of this was changed to make cyberwear a better option, because cyber limbs and armour are seriously gimped. This change does allow for some monster combinations (like a full borg ork with an average of 9 body and a total of 18 armour is easy to do with some number tweaking) but it comes at the cost of more than 5 essence and several hundred thousand nuyen (and a grand total of 1 initiative pass. Go Flash Gordon). An ork with 9 body can get 18 armour by wearing full body armour (10) a helmet (+2) and a riot shield (+6) anyway, and not loose any essence, and at a fraction of the cost, but this is for all of us out there who think full borgs are cool.
Cybertorsos and cyberskulls don’t have a strength or agility rating (look at my strong head! My head can bench press 200 kilos!), nor are these limbs counted when working out attribute averages for strength or agility. As they are just shells the existing muscles are still operational. Body is still applied as normal (representing reinforcing and structural integrity)
Starting attributes for cyberlimbs are the average attributes for the characters race. (Human = Body 3, Agility 3, Strength 3. Elf = Body 3, Agility 4, Strength 3. Ork = Body 6, Agility 3, Strength 5. Dwarf = Body 4, Agility 3, Strength 5. Troll = Body 7, Agility 3, Strength 7). Cost remains the same at character generation. Troll and Dwarf cyberlimbs cost +25% in game.
Armour on cyberlimbs is added together to work out a characters armour, and is added to worn armour like a helmet or shield. For example Sgt Rod Farva of Knight Errant has a body and strength score of 4, a cyberarm with body 4 and 2 points of armour, and is wearing an armour vest (armour 6). He has 8 armour and suffers no penalty to quickness and reaction. If he were to wear a helmet (armour 2) he would have 10 armour and would suffer –1 to both his agility and reaction. The encumbrance rules for armour is taken from the average strength score of the cybered character.
Punching with a cyberlimb causes (STR/2+3)P damage, like bone lacing.
Synthetic Cyberlimbs feel natural if you touch them. Technology is already at a point where we can make synthetic flesh feel natural. I see no need to make it worse in the future.
Most of this was changed to make cyberwear a better option, because cyber limbs and armour are seriously gimped. This change does allow for some monster combinations (like a full borg ork with an average of 9 body and a total of 18 armour is easy to do with some number tweaking) but it comes at the cost of more than 5 essence and several hundred thousand nuyen (and a grand total of 1 initiative pass. Go Flash Gordon). An ork with 9 body can get 18 armour by wearing full body armour (10) a helmet (+2) and a riot shield (+6) anyway, and not loose any essence, and at a fraction of the cost, but this is for all of us out there who think full borgs are cool.
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