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Shrike30
I hate it when life leads me to ask this question (especially because the bad kind of answers are always the silent ones), but...

Is everyone still here? Did we lose anyone at Virginia Tech today?
TheOneRonin
TheOneRonin sounding off. I'll say a prayer for all of those we lost, and all of you who lost loved ones in this tragedy.

A tragedy that could have been avoided (or at least mitigated) if the university staff were allowed to carry concealed.

The body count tends not to rise as quickly when there is return fire.
nezumi
I'm on the other side from Ronin (geographically speaking, I share his comments). My thoughts and prayers go out to them, unfortunate victims in a victim rich environment.

My brother is going to a public university in the fall. I can't buy him any "offensive weapons". I'm thinking of getting him pepper spray and one of those things you use to punch out windows. Won't help him shoot back, but at least he can escape a little easier.
Backgammon
Please don't post your opinion about gun laws in the US in here, one way or another. The Dawson College thread had enough of that.
Kyoto Kid
...definitely a bad scene. My point is if the gunman was going to kill himself anyway, why didn't he just stand in the quad in front of everyone put the gun to his head and pull the trigger instead of taking all those people with him. Hell, even KK (in any version) isn't that stupid.
Kagetenshi
Erm? That… that makes no sense whatsoever.

~J
Kyoto Kid
...it's not supposed to...

...random violence makes no sense...
Kagetenshi
This wasn't random, much like most violence. What makes no sense is what you said, but I'm pretty sure you're refusing to try to understand what happened.

~J
2bit
I don't think it's going out on a limb here to say that the gunman wasn't fueled by the desire to take his own life. That was just part of something bigger. ie. the girlfriend angle. What he did not have was the desire to accept punishment for his actions. That makes perfect sense to me.
cristomeyers
It's less about taking the lives of others than it is about ending your own.

Odds are he felt like a nobody, inconsequential. Now people are going to remember him as a somebody. The fact that they're going to remember him as a killer is also inconsequential.
2bit
um.. i'm in no way trivializing this tragedy or being an apologetic here. Just had to throw that out. But what he did was very... human.

The event brings to mind the quote at the beginning of Apocalypto:
QUOTE
“A great civilization is not conquered from without until it has destroyed itself from within.” -W. Durant

Kagetenshi
2bit: that's entirely possible (see, for example, the decreased incidences of amok in Malaysia after the British started capturing rather than immediately killing those who went amok), but there's also the "wanted to die but also wanted to take people with him" possibility.

~J
2bit
yep.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
This wasn't random, much like most violence. What makes no sense is what you said, but I'm pretty sure you're refusing to try to understand what happened.

~J

...having been bombarded for most of the night by the news media I fully understand what happened. Hell, a similar (albeit one victim) incident happened at my college cafeteria while I was there for breakfast. I was three tables away when a guy walked in and unloaded a .357 into his girlfriend and walked out. The only diff is he didn't turn the gun on himself afterwards.

...you don't forget (excuse my expletive) shit like that.

[edit]

...and before you ask "why the hell didn't you do anything?" witnessing something like that in RL it's a lot different than in a game.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid @ Apr 17 2007, 12:04 PM)
...having been bombarded for most of the night by the news media I fully understand what happened.

With all due respect, I've seen news coverage of events like this (though I'm not watching this time), and I would say that it's an impediment to understanding.
QUOTE
Hell, a similar (albeit one victim)  incident happened at my college cafeteria while I was there for breakfast. I was three tables away when a guy walked in and unloaded a .357 into his girlfriend and walked out.  The only diff is he didn't turn the gun on himself afterwards.
 
...you don't forget (excuse my expletive) shit like that.

Do you have any thoughts on why he did that? Also, do you really believe that that incident is similar to this one?

QUOTE
...and before you ask "why the hell didn't you do anything?" witnessing something like that in RL it's a lot different than in a game.

I know enough about human reactions to stressful situations to not need to ask that.

~J
eidolon
Let's not turn this into an internet superiority contest. It's a tragic event. None of us know why it happened. There's no point in getting into arguments about it, and even less point in doing so here.

Thanks.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Do you have any thoughts on why he did that?

...let's put it this way, I try not to OK? (personal reasons)

@eidolon: Well said...
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)
...let's put it this way, I try not to OK? (personal reasons)

As I said, you've made the choice to not understand. I'm not going to condemn you for that, at least not today, but I hope you'll reconsider at some point in your life.

eidolon: the belief that these sorts of events (and, more importantly, the actors thereof) cannot or should not be understood is sufficiently poisonous and widespread that I cannot allow it to go unaddressed when the matter is under discussion.

~J
TheOneRonin
So to put a more SR spin on this thread, how about this...could the rapidly increasing violence across the US be adequate explanation of proliferation of firearms in the SR verse?

Could gun-control freaks have swung in the opposite direction, advocating the ownership of firearms as a means to be able to counter such bloody incidents as what happened yesterday at Virgina Tech?

I believe the firearm manufacturers would see this as an opportunity. "People have guns, and if you don't, be ready to be their victim," could be a sort of marketing philosophy.

Here's an example of how fear can influence the sale of firearms. I was living in Baton Rouge, LA (60 miles from New Orleans) back when Hurricane Katrina hit. Several days after, my neighborhood was still without power. News of fleeing New Orleans residents moving towards my city, with rampant robbery and looting in their wake, traveled quickly to my surrounding area. Because of this concern, I decided it was past time to stock up on some survival equipment, including ammunition for my guns. I went to the local gun store near my home and found a bizarre sight. There was a line of people out the front door and circled around the side of the building. The management was only letting a handful of people in at a time. EVERYONE was buying guns. Shotguns, revolvers, carbines, etc. And those few who weren't, were buying extra ammo. It took 30 minutes in line before I could even enter the store, another 15 min before I could get an employee to grab .45 ammo for me (the shotgun ammo was within easy reach), and another hour to check out. I chatted with the manager and he told me that he had a caravan of trucks continuously going back and forth between his store and warehouses that stored the weapons. He said the he felt he was going to sell more guns in that weekend than he sold the entire year before. Needless to say, East Baton Rouge Parish would have been a poor choice for thieves and looters.

Thankfully, after it was all over there were no reports of looting or robbery anywhere near where I lived. Still, the incident sold a LOT of guns.
eidolon
@Kage:

And that's a fine opinion to hold. Note that nowhere did I say that it was incomprehensible.

I said that it's not an argument to have here.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
As I said, you've made the choice to not understand. I'm not going to condemn you for that, at least not today, but I hope you'll reconsider at some point in your life.

...I made the choice to try and put it behind me.

I bloody well understand what went down both yesterday and several years ago. Was it a stupid reason? You betcha it was. I knew the woman who was shot & killed that day at my college and why her boyfreind did what he did. Just because I used character perspective doesn't mean I am insensitive to the situation thank you very much

To eidolon and all other posters, sorry for getting so inflamed over this.

extinguish.gif
Zolhex
QUOTE (cristomeyers)
Odds are he felt like a nobody, inconsequential. Now people are going to remember him as a somebody. The fact that they're going to remember him as a killer is also inconsequential.

Yes people now who he was and will remember what it was he did for sometime.

But question if the news would refuse to report on things of this nature would there be so many occurrences?

I do believe that some if not all of these types of incidents come about because the perpetrators know they will be to some degree made famous.

Thus they feel that they are no longer a nobody or inconsequential.

It was what 5 minutes after the shooting that Columbine was mentioned and if for some reason you didn't know about that incident now you do cause it was reintroduced which puts those shooters back into the limelight as it were.

It's time the new learned to report on things that don't give some people ideas on how to become famous or if you will infamous.

How about reports on say orgies thus giveing some people the idea of if we have mass group sex we get on tv now that is or at least should be non violent yet still a major shock factor in todays world.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (Casazil)
I do believe that some if not all of these types of incidents come about because the perpetrators know they will be to some degree made famous.

...a freind of mine once summed such thinking up thus:

"I'm going to get me a gun and get in the news"
2bit
lol - dr phil

video games to blame already
Thane36425
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)
...definitely a bad scene. My point is if the gunman was going to kill himself anyway, why didn't he just stand in the quad in front of everyone put the gun to his head and pull the trigger instead of taking all those people with him. Hell, even KK (in any version) isn't that stupid.

Just in front of the girlfriend. Go up and tell her very sincerely, honestly and from the heart how he felt, being a little emotional too, in a sobby way wouldn't hurt. If still dumped him, stand up, look her in the eye and say, "I love you." Then, quick as a flash, BANG, shoot himself. From then on, guess what she'd be seeing every time she heard or said that phrase?
Thane36425
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)


...and before you ask "why the hell didn't you do anything?" witnessing something like that in RL it's a lot different than in a game.

Yes it is.
Thane36425
QUOTE (TheOneRonin)
Thankfully, after it was all over there were no reports of looting or robbery anywhere near where I lived. Still, the incident sold a LOT of guns.

Sort of the same thing happened here after Hurricane Isabell. One day of armed and open patrols was enough to convince the bad people to go elsewhere.

It puzzles me, this call for guns on campus. Sounds like a really bad idea. Letting drunk, wild college kids have guns? Surely we've all seen the videos on the Internet about the stupid stunts and fights they have now. This shouldn't turn into a debate about gun laws, as was asked earlier, but just plain common sense says that this would be a bad idea.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (2bit @ Apr 17 2007, 02:09 PM)
lol - dr phil

video games to blame already

...I was waiting for this.

Last night on CNN he was a guest of Larry King. I almost puked.

I'm surpirsed the religious right hasn't yet come down on RPGs like they have in the past.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (Thane36425)
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid @ Apr 17 2007, 10:39 AM)
...definitely a bad scene.  My point is if the gunman was going to kill himself anyway, why didn't he just stand in the quad in front of everyone put the gun to his head and pull the trigger instead of taking all those people with him.  Hell, even KK (in any version) isn't that stupid.

Just in front of the girlfriend. Go up and tell her very sincerely, honestly and from the heart how he felt, being a little emotional too, in a sobby way wouldn't hurt. If still dumped him, stand up, look her in the eye and say, "I love you." Then, quick as a flash, BANG, shoot himself. From then on, guess what she'd be seeing every time she heard or said that phrase?

...not quite what I implied, but yes, a total sleazeball nutcase would probably pull a stunt like that.
Thane36425
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)

...not quite what I implied, but yes, a total sleazeball nutcase would probably do something like that.

My point being the girlfriend was the only one he needed to hurt, so why do it on the quad in front of all those peole who had nothing to do with the problem?
TheOneRonin
QUOTE (Thane36425)

It puzzles me, this call for guns on campus. Sounds like a really bad idea. Letting drunk, wild college kids have guns? Surely we've all seen the videos on the Internet about the stupid stunts and fights they have now. This shouldn't turn into a debate about gun laws, as was asked earlier, but just plain common sense says that this would be a bad idea.



Just a couple of clarifications here.

#1 Depending upon the state you live in, drunk and wild college kids can already legally own guns.

#2 My comment about incidents like this being the precursor for wide-spread gun ownership was from a GAME perspective, not real life.

#3 For my opinion about "guns on campus", see my original quote:

QUOTE (TheOneRonin)
A tragedy that could have been avoided (or at least mitigated) if the university staff were allowed to carry concealed.



And as a final note, I [illegally] carried a hand-gun on campus the entire time I was in college (4 years +). I also went to my share of parties and got PLENTY drunk. Not once was my pistol involved in any of those types of incidents.
Chance359
QUOTE
I'm surpirsed the religious right hasn't yet come down on RPGs like they have in the past.


Give them a few days. I'm sure they'll be coming out of the woodwork soon enough.
Straight Razor
i'm not entirely sure that my ex-girlfriend of 5 years was not envolved in this. i will hopefuly find out later today. As i see her father at work regualry.

as for my 2 cents.

the country with the lowest violent crime per citizan in the world, also has the hightst gun to citizan ratio in the world, switzerland
When austrila baned guns, crime went up 14% in 7 days, violent crime went up 25%

When you are in a sean of extream violence it is a shock. some people act, some people react. At no point can you draw coralation between a single act and an ongoing event.
I think the the US. has been demasculated.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (Thane36425)
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid @ Apr 17 2007, 02:25 PM)

...not quite what I implied, but yes, a total sleazeball nutcase would probably do something like that.

My point being the girlfriend was the only one he needed to hurt, so why do it on the quad in front of all those peole who had nothing to do with the problem?

...involve others in his "pain" (an old cliche but misery loves company).

knasser
QUOTE (Shrike30)
I hate it when life leads me to ask this question (especially because the bad kind of answers are always the silent ones), but...

Is everyone still here? Did we lose anyone at Virginia Tech today?


In the UK here, far from Virginia. But I will be praying for the victims and those close to them. And the killer himself, too.

I think whatever our beliefs on the issues involved, that we can all send our prayers or hopes to those who have lost someone today.

-Khadim.
TheOneRonin
QUOTE (Straight Razor)
i'm not entirely sure that my ex-girlfriend of 5 years was not envolved in this. i will hopefuly find out later today.  As i see her father at work regualry.

as for my 2 cents.

the country with the lowest violent crime per citizan in the world, also has the hightst gun to citizan ratio in the world, switzerland
When austrila baned guns, crime went up 14% in 7 days, violent crime went up 25%

When you are in a sean of extream violence it is a shock.  some people act, some people react.  At no point can you draw coralation between a single act and an ongoing event.
I think the the US. has been demasculated.

On that note, read this about Kennesaw, GA (Gun Town, USA)
bibliophile20
QUOTE (2bit)
lol - dr phil

video games to blame already

and it turns out that the shooter was a disturbed english student, not a computer gaming geek.

*sigh*
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Straight Razor)
the country with the lowest violent crime per citizan in the world, also has the hightst gun to citizan ratio in the world, switzerland

Now try to expand that correlation. How do the ten countries with the lowest crime-per-citizen rates compare in gun-to-citizen ratios? The ten countries with the highest gun-to-citizen ratios, how do they fair in the crime-per-citizen rates?

What about ancillary laws? I believe that most cantons are pretty restrictive about who they issue permits to to carry firearms in public. There's a difference between gun ownership and carrying—do you have statistics there?

~J
Mortax
Am I the only one who wants to launch paople who make assanine statments like Dr. Phil out of a trebuchet?

Damn, guess I've played too many of those violent games. sarcastic.gif

I've played violent games for a long time. I've never gone on a killing spree. MOSt people who have played these games have not gone on a killing spree, nor would they. Maybe with some people it might cause what he is talking about, but those people are already sociopaths, he defeated his own fragging argument if he bothered to look at it logically.

Maybe thats asking too much.

(/rant)
hyzmarca
Dudes, murder is never a solution of a break-up. If he loved her so much he should have kidnapped her, drugged her, kept her disoriented, and love-bombed her until she would do anything for him, including drink the green koolade.

QUOTE (nezumi)
My brother is going to a public university in the fall. I can't buy him any "offensive weapons". I'm thinking of getting him pepper spray and one of those things you use to punch out windows. Won't help him shoot back, but at least he can escape a little easier.


You might want to consider a tazer and NIJ Level III body armor.
Lady Door
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
Dudes, murder is never a solution of a break-up. If he loved her so much he should have kidnapped her, drugged her, kept her disoriented, and love-bombed her until she would do anything for him, including drink the green koolade.


Okay, seriously... that's creepy.
Kagetenshi
But sensible!

~J
nezumi
Tasers are illegal in most of Maryland, unfortunately. I've semi-seriously considered a class III jacket for him, but I suspect he wouldn't wear it half the time (although considering the other geeks at the school, he wouldn't look especially out of place while there. I remember last time I visited a 5'4", 170lb chubby kid walked into the cafeteria with a dracula cape and fake teeth. Hrm... Maybe I really should worry...)
hyzmarca
Lovelorn collegians could learn a great deal from the CIA and many successful doomsday cults. I wouldn't recommend it over wild unprotected rebound sex with the campus slut followed by a big shot of penicillin and a date with a bottle of delousing shampoo; but I would recommend it over shooting 32 people.
Thane36425
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
Lovelorn collegians could learn a great deal from the CIA and many successful doomsday cults. I wouldn't recommend it over wild unprotected rebound sex with the campus slut followed by a big shot of penicillin and a date with a bottle of delousing shampoo; but I would recommend it over shooting 32 people.

I wouldn't recommend it either, because every detail would be in the campus grapevine before the regret even had time to kick in. Be better off scraping up a couple hundred bucks, going out of town and hiring some "talent" from a reputable agency. Still need the penecillin and all that, but with anonymity.
fistandantilus4.0
Alright, I think that this one has run it's course. I do appreciate threads like this because I think they help Dumpshock and DSers be a bit more of a community. But this has gone past the point of being useful and then some.
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