I have Street Samurai Catalog (2nd edition I think) and it has a picture of the MP5, and it looks pretty cool. But in SR4, it looks bulky and kinda cheaper. Why did they change the appearance, when the gun is still exactly the same?

What's the point with HK-227? In the pictures it looks bigger than an Ares Alpha? What's the point of having an SMG that's BIGGER than an assault rifle? Why would anyone use it? IIRC it isn't even that cheap.

Why oh why is the AK-98 still not bullpup? You'd think that in seventy years they would have made a new model.

Never, ever attempt to go by the art in those books. Doing so will result in puzzlement. Avoid the art, and just compare the statistics given for the weapons.

Check out world.guns.ru to see a lot of real weapons, including the MP5. For the HK227, click here.

the original is what it looks like, in my game. in real life, the MP5 and its many variants look very similar. one look and you can tell it's from the MP5 family. also, H&K designs are typically very noticable and nearly all of their weapons fit a pattern.

in regards to the 227, that's not what an H&K 227 looks like. the SR guys kind of fudged the bucket on some of the firearm pictures in sr4.

even though it's all sr3 rules, a really great place to see what guns look like and all that its at raygun's.

http://matrix.dumpshock.com/raygun/firearm...s/navframe.html

he has tons of H&K submacs in there, including the 227.

edolon!

you beat me!

arrrgh!

I agree with you, the stats are what matters. But, when it comes to guns, especially in Shadowrun where most guns of the same type are pretty much the same, the pictures are important. As is the case with most gear. It's not the same to look at the stats of the weapons and choose the guns from them alone compared to seeing the pictures and thinkin: "man that burner looks cool, I want that." The pictures are necessary.

edit: And my answer was for eidolon. Man you guys replied fast!

I agree that visuals are important. In fact, I think the Street Samurai Catalog is one of my favorite books because they included images for stuff, even though it might not have been great in some cases.

The only time I really just totally ignore the pictures is when the weapon in question is
- based off of, or straight up just is, a real weapon (real as in currently exists)
- image doesn't come close to what is described/statted out (HK227)

So in those cases, I go hunting for my own visuals.

I have a ton of firearm images I would be more than happy to share. I have them neatly divided by categories (SMGs, Assault Rifles, Sniper Rifles, etc.), and all zipped up.

I also have an excel spreadsheet with stats for all of those weapons I would be happy to share as well. However, those weapons stats are based on several of my house rules for firearms in SR4, so they may not work properly in a canon SR4 game.

Where do you go for images? I usually just use world.guns.ru, or I'll run a random search for "submachine guns" and just see what comes up.

Although I'm running out of cool looking weapons from world.guns to make into SR stuff.

World Guns and Raygun's site are the two that I plunder the most for images. But here are a few others I use:


Military Photos.Net Is a good resource, specifically the Equipment and Gear section.

Teppo Jutsu

Remington Military


And one of my personal favorites:

SSK Industries


Also, any Firearm-centric message board will usually have tons of threads with good images. Some of the best are custom jobs posted by board members...and just about every board has some "Post your gun collection!" thread, or variation thereof.

...just for kicks Raygun should have also included a graphic for the Ruger Redhawk.

...thank you. This is the style KK chose for her Super Warhawk (which is the descendent of the Blackhawk/Redhawk series)

I agree, don't go by the art in the books. Its the d20 complex: they have to make the weapons HUGE so the typical gamer, who has no clue about weapons, will think it looks cool. A real battle axe, for example, isn't that big, but the ones in the artwork, even Arnold would have a hard time lifting, with both hands!

If you look at a lot of the SR guns, they probably wouldn't even work the way they are designed. Now, the Street Samurai Catalog and the Mercenary guides are closer to what guns should look like, much more so than the artwork with characters using the weapons. The extra bulk could be the Smartlink hardware, laser sights and things like that.

...yeah, I own a Glock 9mm & have fired a Colt Peacemaker, Ruger Redhawk, M16, Mossberg 12 gauge, and Winchester 3030.

Agreed the illos in SR are very "cinematic" in their style.

Oh man, don't get me started on the weapons being used in SR art.

...I personally like the schoolgirl pic in Shadows of Asia. That is a very big gun she has. Kind of reminds me of my Otaku, Akima, who had an Eichiro Hatamoto. Only one shot per reload, but that is usually all she needed.

I have one scene in my original fiction where the head of the Weaponsmiths Guild (whose name is Lugh Wieland, but insists that everyone calls him Q for some obscure reason ) is taking shop with a soldier and gives him a new gun to try out.

~*~

"We haven't come up with a name for it yet," Q said, opening the weapon locker, "but some of the younger members of the Guild are calling it the 'ELG 100'."

"ELG 100...?"

Q smirked and pulled an oversized gun case out of the locker. "Excessively Large Gun 100."

~*~

It's a railgun that shoots self-forging shaped-charged projectiles--and is designed so that foot soldiers have an option against heavy armor.

I think that you're going to see the development of high energy repeaters (be they sub-caliber cone guns, railguns, coilguns, ETC weapons, injected-gas smoothbores, or whatever your incredibly damaging huge weapon of choice is), rather than one-shot or low-rate-of-fire systems like the AT-4 or TOW II missiles, when your "armored" targets start being enemy infantry. Why you'd need a shaped charge on a railgun is beyond me, though...

Besides, I'm pretty sure the GMC Banshee is one of the heaviest vehicles in SR we've ever really gotten stats for, and it's described as being a "light t-bird vectored-thrust craft ... designed for reconnaissance and courier duty." If we had stats for, say, a Stonewall MBT, we could really get into this... sadly, however, we don't, being stuck with what're essentially the equivalent of APCs/IFVs until they realize there's a market for the "big book of everything that got shown off at Desert Wars this year."

Given the selection of vehicles we do have at the moment... yes, weapons beat out armor, as long as you're using a weapon that's actually supposed to be effective against armored targets. Assault Cannons, HMG's with APDS, and AV Rockets are where I'd start thinking about that...

Don't forget about anti-missile systems and automatic anti-personnel system. In the first Merc book, they mentioned the systems that looked for infantry aiming missiles at the vehicle. By 2070, those systems could be linked directly to the existing weapons, since many of them are remote controlled anyway, via software. Better make that shot quick.

Why does that link now make me think of the Warhammer line? Don't take me wrong, I like that universe.

Ah. Interesting. T'would explain why your site was one of the very few that came up when searching for the HK227.

Interesting stuff on the SMG II link, thanks.

I was thinking about picking up R. Talsorian's Compendium Of Modern Firearms. It's got some d20 rules but basically is just a catalog of guns with pictures. Most of these can most likely be found on the internet, but I really like illustrations. And since the stats for weapons are all the same in Shadowrun, it wouldn't be too hard to come up wih the stats for these toys.

There's the direct relation between shaped charge warhead diameter and penetration capability and there's the fact that once you can get objects to ridiculously high velocities right out of the muzzle it's more efficient to go with a kinetic kill projectiles. Also, going with a self-forging fragment (or explosively formed penetrator, as they're usually called in Iraq news coverage at the moment) is pointless when your projectile is quite capable of coming into contact with the target.

It's far from being the silliest pseudoscience I've seen today -- although that's mostly because I just saw the movie Sunshine -- but people who know how these technologies work won't be too impressed. Of course, if nobody around your table takes any interest in railguns or shaped charge technology, you're in the clear.

yeah. i mean, i'm assuming that you can find an explosive that propagates significantly faster than the velocity of projectile. given the size of the projectile in question (my imaginary mind-gun fires projectiles a bit bigger than a human fist, in order to contain the necessary masses of explosive and copper), i figure that shouldn't be too hard. even so, i still can't imagine it being much--if at all--better than a regular ol' anti-armor missile. cooler, but not necessarily better.

i kinda came up with a similar weapon for one of my characters--it's not a railgun, just an AMR whose fin-stabilized rounds use a booster charge... well, lemme just post the only time i ever got to fire it:

source. it's a long read; do a search for "00:59:36/06-27-2064" to start at the beginning.

There are plenty of EFP designs that can rip open a Stryker like a can of beans, and piercing the side armor of a (non-upgraded) M1A2 can be done too. It's all a matter of scale. For any particular size of warhead with current technology, an EFP charge will not penetrate as much as a warhead designed to only be effective on contact or over a very short range.

There are some missiles and cannon rounds out there designed to make use of EFPs -- the late XM943 STAFF for example. They are indeed used to target top armor or to engage hard-to-hit targets at long range, such as helos. Certainly hasn't eliminated MBTs yet.

EFPs are seeing a lot of use in Iraq because the insurgents don't have the means to get their warheads in contact with their targets. As the vehicles become more heavily armored, they shift to more dedicated armor piercing explosive devices. It's not like they need to come up with any new technology for this stuff, EFP off-route armor piercing mines have been around for decades.

AE pretty much nails it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explosively_f...rmed_penetrator

(ramble mode ON)

Shaped charges gained popularity for low-velocity applications like bazookas, recoilless rifles, and later, guided missiles. A kinetic round at that speed just wouldn't do much, but a shaped charge doesn't care. The one downside of the shaped charge, though, is that you have to get it right on or next to the target, and that gives the target opportunities to defend against it.

For example, in Iraq we started using slat armor to stop RPGs. Works like a champ. Either they hit it wrong and the impact fuse fails to go off, or they detonate with the copper jet too far away or off-angle to penetrate the hull. Slat armor was much-derided at first by some folks, but it's pretty much proven itself and is being adopted by some M1 upgrades in the sides/rear.

And, of course, there's reactive armor, which is considerably more complex and expensive (and hazardous to anybody nearby). I suspect a number of old-school Russian generals are hating themselves for not trying slat armor a few decades ago.

So, quite a while back, somebody came up with EFPs. I don't know the history on them, but we were planning to use them as far back as Assault Breaker in the 70s/80s. The idea was that missiles or bomblets would fly over the thinner top armor of tanks and fire what was basically a short-ranged KE warhead into them from above. Works pretty dang well. I believe we got a few shots in with SADARM to good effect on the road to Baghdad. Unfortunately, the same reasons that attracted us to it for use against the Red Army have attracted Iran and the nice folks they're arming to it for use against us.

The short version is, KE weapons in existence today have generally the best overall penetration. But, outside of HVMs like LOSAT/CKEM, those require big tank or AT guns. Shaped charges (HEAT) can be effective in weapons as small as RPGs (yeah, cannon rounds are smaller, but require... cannons), but require direct contact with the target, and we can do something about that. EFPs, however, are KE but don't require a big gun, thus providing the enemy with something that can penetrate both our anti-RPG defenses and our thinner sections of armor, like on the sides or top, from IED ambush.

(ramble mode OFF)

But if you've got a railgun, or HVM... use straight KE. It's the most effective, and generally hardest-to-defend type of warhead. If you *really* need something different, like an area effect, use a tiny charge to dispense KE submunitions like a shotgun flying through the air at mach 4.

what'll really be cool is when we come up with (relatively) portable fusion generators. half-meter-thick iridium armor riding around on an air cushion ftw!

I hate to say it, but by the time we get to that tech, we'll probably have weapons and tactics that make mechanized warfare, even with hovertanks, look like the hoplite phalanx.

Personally, I think mechanized warfare against the US is pretty much a lost cause today. Even if we were still facing a hundred divisions with ten thousand tanks, we now have the toys to deal with even that. What's actually left... would have to be deployed in some other way than traditional mech ops.

the Ingram Smartgun is just an Ingram MAC-10 with a huge surpressor on it.