Hey. I'm fairly new to SR4--I played SR2 a long time back and a little SR3 (on a MUSH, actually), and am trying to learn SR4. Been making a few example characters. I like the changes to cyber in general.
However, for a magician, 400BP just doesn't seem to -go far-. When I make a magician, I like having all the magical skills, and that, plus the magician quality, plus buying up magic, makes things really expensive.
What would you suggest for a Magic attribute for a magician? 4? 5? Higher to 6, or lower? Is there any tricks or tips you can suggest for a new player who's playing with magicians at present?
Full Version: Advice on Magic?
Most mages in my games tend to have a Magic attribute of 5. That allows for a god punch when casting spells (a Force of 5 is possible without physical drain). For skills: spezialise and either chose summoning or spellcasting. It's no longer possible for a starting mage to be good in both fields.
A Magic Rating of 4 is adequate for a magician that intends to impose his or her will on others. A Rating of 5 is better. Rating 6 is a stretch at character creation, and will force you to lose out on something else (one of the magicians in our group has no Counterspelling, but a Magic Rating of 6).
You might want to start it off at 5, and then save up 18 Karma to buy it up to 6 during play.
You might want to start it off at 5, and then save up 18 Karma to buy it up to 6 during play.
Taking both Sorcery and Conjuring skill groups might not be the best idea. If you want to be good at something, then you don't want to raise to only 4 (which is maximum for starting skill groups), but to 5 or maybe 6. As starting magician doesn't really need to use Ritual Spellcasting (although it could be good in roleplaying point of view), so you might just want to take Spellcasting and maybe Counterspelling. For the Conjuring, you might want take one or two of them (from Summoning, Binding and Banishing) depending on your character (and again from rpg point of view). You can always kick those spirits tiny floating butts with some mana spells and/or IMO binding would be in same category as Ritual Spellcasting. You want to make spirits angy by binding them, fine, you can do it later, if you still live. Or if your character wants to play with spirits more than fireballs then do opposite.
But as said it ALL depends how you want to play. More minmaxing or more roleplaying. But you can always make your characters life a bit more hard and take Negative Qualities from Street Magic like Aspected Magician and Geas for more points and not being so Full-of-youself-Magician.
Maybe not best ideas as I'm not minmaxer (and never will be), but those are more of rookie suggestions, as they were asked.
But as said it ALL depends how you want to play. More minmaxing or more roleplaying. But you can always make your characters life a bit more hard and take Negative Qualities from Street Magic like Aspected Magician and Geas for more points and not being so Full-of-youself-Magician.
Maybe not best ideas as I'm not minmaxer (and never will be), but those are more of rookie suggestions, as they were asked.
Agreed that you don't need every magic skill maxed out at chargen, and that last point of magic may just be too expensive. (Disclaimer--the below is some kinda generic min-maxing stuff; don't let any of it override your character concept, and don't kill yourself over getting one last point of max in).
If you're looking for a fairly generic high-octane slinger, focus on spellcasting, counterspelling, and summoning. Spec in whichever fields you think will have the most gotta-make-the-roll-right-now (which might not be combat spells, for example).
Don't waste points on redundant spells; spells don't scale in karma like skills do, so you can get them later. Pick a handful that cover as much ground as possible. Don't start with Stunbolt, Manabolt, and Powerbolt when Stunbolt and Stunball will do against anything with an aura, and take at least one mind control spell. Don't forget that your single unbound spirit can have powers that essentially duplicate some spells, although that may keep it from doing more useful things for you.
Make sure to pick up a rank or two in guns and abuse specs if you're truly min-maxing (I'd go for pistols 1(SA), auto 1(SMG/AR), and heavy 1(GL) for the excellent drainless Fragball spell). It's nice to have drainless backup, and carrying no guns in a run just hangs a "geek me first" sign on you.
Don't forget important street survival skills like perception, etiquette, negotiation. You don't have to be a face, but you have to keep out of trouble. Abuse specs, again, if you're short on points.
If you're feeling *really* adventurous, you can always take Spirit Bane(blood, toxic, radioactive). Your GM will probably reward your creativity in kind (although your team may geek you themselves to stop the random F9 attacks).
If you're looking for a fairly generic high-octane slinger, focus on spellcasting, counterspelling, and summoning. Spec in whichever fields you think will have the most gotta-make-the-roll-right-now (which might not be combat spells, for example).
Don't waste points on redundant spells; spells don't scale in karma like skills do, so you can get them later. Pick a handful that cover as much ground as possible. Don't start with Stunbolt, Manabolt, and Powerbolt when Stunbolt and Stunball will do against anything with an aura, and take at least one mind control spell. Don't forget that your single unbound spirit can have powers that essentially duplicate some spells, although that may keep it from doing more useful things for you.
Make sure to pick up a rank or two in guns and abuse specs if you're truly min-maxing (I'd go for pistols 1(SA), auto 1(SMG/AR), and heavy 1(GL) for the excellent drainless Fragball spell). It's nice to have drainless backup, and carrying no guns in a run just hangs a "geek me first" sign on you.
Don't forget important street survival skills like perception, etiquette, negotiation. You don't have to be a face, but you have to keep out of trouble. Abuse specs, again, if you're short on points.
If you're feeling *really* adventurous, you can always take Spirit Bane(blood, toxic, radioactive). Your GM will probably reward your creativity in kind (although your team may geek you themselves to stop the random F9 attacks).
| QUOTE (Big D) |
| Don't waste points on redundant spells; spells don't scale in karma like skills do, so you can get them later. Pick a handful that cover as much ground as possible. Don't start with Stunbolt, Manabolt, and Powerbolt when Stunbolt and Stunball will do against anything with an aura, and take at least one mind control spell. |
A true "killer" spell can become useful sometimes too.
You know, unless I've missed something Ritual Sorcery doesn't actually need a group to sling mojo half-way across the world so I'm not so convinced that it isn't a 'must-have' skill with the new Ritual Link rules in Street Magic. So personally what I suggest is to take the Sorcery Skill Group at 4 and then break the Group to get both Spellcasting and Counterspelling to 5 (Provided of course yuor DM allows it, but as a DM who is finally getting a chance to be a Player again I don't see why not.). Then with your first 4 Karma take the Combat Spell specialization with both skills.
As for BPs not going very far with the Awakened, yeah I agree, but remember that in the Sixth World an average wizard will only have a Magic of 3, so anyone with 4+ is considered a powerful spell-slinger.
Also a House-Rule that I've adopted to encourage mages to cyber-up is that at Char-Gen installing cyber only lowers your Magic Cap, not the actual Magic Rating itself...
As for BPs not going very far with the Awakened, yeah I agree, but remember that in the Sixth World an average wizard will only have a Magic of 3, so anyone with 4+ is considered a powerful spell-slinger.
Also a House-Rule that I've adopted to encourage mages to cyber-up is that at Char-Gen installing cyber only lowers your Magic Cap, not the actual Magic Rating itself...
| QUOTE (Grinder @ Apr 19 2007, 10:36 AM) | ||
A true "killer" spell can become useful sometimes too. |
Yeah, I suggest Stunball and Powerbolt for offensive spells. Powerbolt w/ a fetish isn't really all that hard to resist the drain from, really, and between those two you can take on everything from Spirits to Drones (although drone object resistance is tough to beat if you're not using a Power foci/mentor spirits) if you need to, as well as having both physical and stun damage covered. Trust me, you'll feel really silly if you stay away from power spells just to save some drain and then have to depend on summoning just to take out a drone, or casting stunball multiple times just to finish off one guy you actually need to kill rather than knockout.
Normally I would start with Manabolt and Powerbolt. That gives you a good set against fighting types that usually have a low Willpower and mages that usually have lower Body. A Stun spell is also useful for taking down targets without killing them. Heal is another spell I always take, even though it is of limited use on Sammies. Physical Mask is good because you can make yourself or someone else look like just about whatever you want. Invisibility is OK too.
As far as spirits go, I put my starting emphasis on summoning and don't worry about Binding and Banishing. The Slay Spirit spell can somewhat take the place of Banishing and has always worked well enough for me. At Chargen, it also costs a lot less than levels in Banishing.
You could also take specializations. I had a Wolf Shaman (modified from 3rd to 4th) with a combat spell specialiazation. In 4th, that's 4 extra dice for casting combat spells. A specialization in a class of spirits is another option, mostly to try to get more services and works best with a Mentor spirit that gives bonuses to a certain spirit in the first place. However, I prefer the spellcasting specialization.
Like some of the others said, definitely learn a gun skill. My preference has been pistols and automatics for close range work. Long range attacks can be made with magic and don't suffer range penalties and all that, and optical scopes can be used to get a clearer view of the target. At long range with good concealment and a buddy or two for backup, you can cast a harder spell than you could close up, since one shot is probably all you will get, or need.
As far as spirits go, I put my starting emphasis on summoning and don't worry about Binding and Banishing. The Slay Spirit spell can somewhat take the place of Banishing and has always worked well enough for me. At Chargen, it also costs a lot less than levels in Banishing.
You could also take specializations. I had a Wolf Shaman (modified from 3rd to 4th) with a combat spell specialiazation. In 4th, that's 4 extra dice for casting combat spells. A specialization in a class of spirits is another option, mostly to try to get more services and works best with a Mentor spirit that gives bonuses to a certain spirit in the first place. However, I prefer the spellcasting specialization.
Like some of the others said, definitely learn a gun skill. My preference has been pistols and automatics for close range work. Long range attacks can be made with magic and don't suffer range penalties and all that, and optical scopes can be used to get a clearer view of the target. At long range with good concealment and a buddy or two for backup, you can cast a harder spell than you could close up, since one shot is probably all you will get, or need.
Yeah, before the flechette nerf, the Slivergun set to wide burst was the inept gunman's best friend at close range 
These days, I'd suggest a gas vented machine pistol full of stick and shock. Hosing down people with a wide burst 6S(e) -half Impact damage code is good clean semi-concealable fun.
These days, I'd suggest a gas vented machine pistol full of stick and shock. Hosing down people with a wide burst 6S(e) -half Impact damage code is good clean semi-concealable fun.
| QUOTE (Grinder @ Apr 19 2007, 12:37 PM) |
| Most mages in my games tend to have a Magic attribute of 5. That allows for a god punch when casting spells (a Force of 5 is possible without physical drain). For skills: spezialise and either chose summoning or spellcasting. It's no longer possible for a starting mage to be good in both fields. |
Let me see:
Magic 5- 40 BP
Conjuring Skill group - 40 BP
Spellcasting 5 - 20 BP
Counterspelling 5 - 20 BP
That's 120. Expensive, but you DO have 400. If you REALLY want 200 BP on stats as well, there is still 80 BP on other (non-essential) skills, contacts and Nuyen.
I don't see the problem. Mages are damn powerful, and thave to pay for that by not being able to have alot of good skills or as good attributes. They don't really need that much money right away.
EDIT: I forgot about spells... but that's only 5BP per spell, right? You don't need more than 3 or 4 of them anyway. And magician quality can be paid for by negative qualities.
A high spellcasting lets you start with more spells but the spells themselves cost BP too which can add up.
Binding is hideously powerful as counterspelling doesnt apply to spirit powers other than Innate Spell. "Spirit Binding Materials" cost 500/force since errata 1.5 so specializing Binding and using am entor spirit with a summoning benefot is a huge thing. Note that force 4 spirits still do decently much of the time.
Don't worry too much about casting force... its drain that limits a mage. Make sure your two drain attributes are at a 5 before getting Focused Concentration and know that some things can aid drain long term:
1. Homeground advantage
2. Increase Willpower/Logic/Intuition/Charisma. Can sustain/quicken them or have a Spirit of Man cast it on you.
3. Pain Editor
4. Initiating and choosing Centering
Note that even magic 4 can be good and doubled force via overcasting can allow 8 hits to apply to the target on a force 8 spell. This of course assumes you won't twitch a bit and die with blood from your nose after casting.
Some spells to look at:
1. Physical Camouflague. Stacks with Infiltration/Chameleon Suits. Makes it all THAT much harder to see you. IMO better than Imp Invis.
2. Silence. Allows bombs and grenades to make little or no noise. Also allows you to ignore motions sensors.
3. Mind Probe. Even if your GM wont allow it on knocked out targets its still REALLY good.
4. Mob Mind. You may die casting it but if you are within a sliver of your life and conscious you can end a battle decisivly and instantly.
5. Vehicle Mask. Lets you silence a vehicle, hide it, change it into another car's appearance, etc. Darn useful.
6. Analyze Device. Get lots of hits and you not only ignore defaulting you get bonus dice. This becomes most useful as an aid to your team's Hacker. The hacker uses AR and you make it easier for them to use their commlink. Note you'd have to be the OR threshold however. Also great for Spirits of Man to use on you and your teammates.
7. Shapechange. Your TM will love you for it and if you have Masking and Extended Masking makes a supreme getaway. flying, Swimming, doesn't matter... plus you get to sub the critters physical stats for your own WITH a +1 to them for each hit.
8. A AOE spell with Blast or other indirect damage effect. That way it can hurt invisible opponents.
9. Detect Drone. Use with the AOE spell listed above to massacre the crap out of those annoying flyspy's and kanmushi spider drones.
10. Astral Static. Simo-cast two of these things and you shut yourself down, true, but also any spirits trying to screw with your team. Carry a pistol for such times...
Lastly, GET MAGE SIGHT GOGGLES. They rock. Skin Link for it is suggested. With those you can hide around a corner, take 100 cover, and only the goggles can be targeted.
Binding is hideously powerful as counterspelling doesnt apply to spirit powers other than Innate Spell. "Spirit Binding Materials" cost 500/force since errata 1.5 so specializing Binding and using am entor spirit with a summoning benefot is a huge thing. Note that force 4 spirits still do decently much of the time.
Don't worry too much about casting force... its drain that limits a mage. Make sure your two drain attributes are at a 5 before getting Focused Concentration and know that some things can aid drain long term:
1. Homeground advantage
2. Increase Willpower/Logic/Intuition/Charisma. Can sustain/quicken them or have a Spirit of Man cast it on you.
3. Pain Editor
4. Initiating and choosing Centering
Note that even magic 4 can be good and doubled force via overcasting can allow 8 hits to apply to the target on a force 8 spell. This of course assumes you won't twitch a bit and die with blood from your nose after casting.
Some spells to look at:
1. Physical Camouflague. Stacks with Infiltration/Chameleon Suits. Makes it all THAT much harder to see you. IMO better than Imp Invis.
2. Silence. Allows bombs and grenades to make little or no noise. Also allows you to ignore motions sensors.
3. Mind Probe. Even if your GM wont allow it on knocked out targets its still REALLY good.
4. Mob Mind. You may die casting it but if you are within a sliver of your life and conscious you can end a battle decisivly and instantly.
5. Vehicle Mask. Lets you silence a vehicle, hide it, change it into another car's appearance, etc. Darn useful.
6. Analyze Device. Get lots of hits and you not only ignore defaulting you get bonus dice. This becomes most useful as an aid to your team's Hacker. The hacker uses AR and you make it easier for them to use their commlink. Note you'd have to be the OR threshold however. Also great for Spirits of Man to use on you and your teammates.
7. Shapechange. Your TM will love you for it and if you have Masking and Extended Masking makes a supreme getaway. flying, Swimming, doesn't matter... plus you get to sub the critters physical stats for your own WITH a +1 to them for each hit.
8. A AOE spell with Blast or other indirect damage effect. That way it can hurt invisible opponents.
9. Detect Drone. Use with the AOE spell listed above to massacre the crap out of those annoying flyspy's and kanmushi spider drones.
10. Astral Static. Simo-cast two of these things and you shut yourself down, true, but also any spirits trying to screw with your team. Carry a pistol for such times...
Lastly, GET MAGE SIGHT GOGGLES. They rock. Skin Link for it is suggested. With those you can hide around a corner, take 100 cover, and only the goggles can be targeted.
| QUOTE (Wasabi @ Apr 21 2007, 10:47 PM) |
| 1. Homeground advantage 2. Increase Willpower/Logic/Intuition/Charisma. Can sustain/quicken them or have a Spirit of Man cast it on you. 3. Pain Editor 4. Initiating and choosing Centering Note that even magic 4 can be good and doubled force via overcasting can allow 8 hits to apply to the target on a force 8 spell. This of course assumes you won't twitch a bit and die with blood from your nose after casting. |
All very true. My current mage was designed with these things in mind. He started with these qualities and 'ware at creation, and he's worked out great so far, despite only taking the Sorcery and Conjuring skill groups at creation along with 6 Assensing (I plan on picking up Psychometry). So far, he's worked out pretty well.
Focused Concentration 1
Astral Chameleon
Mentor Spirit (Dark King)
Cerebral Booster 2
Platelet Factory
Skillwire 2 System (Alpha)
Synthacardium 3 (Cultured)
He's still got 4 magic since that stuff only cost a single essence, and he's a logic drain character, so he rolls 13 dice (Logic 5(7)+Will 5+Focused Concentration 1) to resist drain and has the Platelet factory to help smooth out the few times he does take more than a single point of drain. With this combo it's not hard at all to cast at Force 8 quite safely as long as you stay away from the really high drain modifiers, and it's a considerably cheaper route than making an elf shaman, bp for bp. More than anything though, it's been a real godsend when a binding test leaps up and attempts to bone me. The Skillwire system and Synthacardium is just icing on the cake, really, but it's really, really good icing. I'd recommend gymnastics, etiquette, perception for sure and then infiltration, hardware or medicine. As long as it's something you'd really hate to default or plays to your high logic, you really can't go wrong. The synthacardium is probably the weakest pick if you don't care for abusing gymnastics and doubt that your character will need to climb anything any time soon. I only took it to eventually tear out in favor of upgrading to Cerebral booster 3 later anyway.
Now I know that I've said it before, but I'll say it again, every single mage out there should pluck out their own eyes and replace them with Cybereyes (R3) loaded down with every Vision Mod they can stuff into it, including the Ultrasound Sensor (Before anyone claims that you can no longer install Ultrasound in Cybereyes, let me point you towards the Bounty Hunter sample character.).
The reasoning, Vision Mods paid for with Essence can be used to target spells, and Vision Penalties subtract from Spellcasting Tests so you want to be able to see in as many modes as possible.
As for Ultrasound, well sure it isn't really a vision mod, but in my opinion its just too useful not to have, in order to detect Motion Sensors, ect in Passive Mode and to be able to shoot at Invisible targets without that annoying -2 from Astral Sight in Active Mode...
Now the only downside to only getting Cybereyes (R3) is that you'll need to buy yourself a set of Smartshades for your gun, but in my opinion the Essence saved is well worth it.
The reasoning, Vision Mods paid for with Essence can be used to target spells, and Vision Penalties subtract from Spellcasting Tests so you want to be able to see in as many modes as possible.
As for Ultrasound, well sure it isn't really a vision mod, but in my opinion its just too useful not to have, in order to detect Motion Sensors, ect in Passive Mode and to be able to shoot at Invisible targets without that annoying -2 from Astral Sight in Active Mode...
Now the only downside to only getting Cybereyes (R3) is that you'll need to buy yourself a set of Smartshades for your gun, but in my opinion the Essence saved is well worth it.
| QUOTE (Ravor) |
| Now I know that I've said it before, but I'll say it again, every single mage out there should pluck out their own eyes and replace them with Cybereyes (R3) loaded down with every Vision Mod they can stuff into it, including the Ultrasound Sensor (Before anyone claims that you can no longer install Ultrasound in Cybereyes, let me point you towards the Bounty Hunter sample character.). The reasoning, Vision Mods paid for with Essence can be used to target spells, and Vision Penalties subtract from Spellcasting Tests so you want to be able to see in as many modes as possible. As for Ultrasound, well sure it isn't really a vision mod, but in my opinion its just too useful not to have, in order to detect Motion Sensors, ect in Passive Mode and to be able to shoot at Invisible targets without that annoying -2 from Astral Sight in Active Mode... Now the only downside to only getting Cybereyes (R3) is that you'll need to buy yourself a set of Smartshades for your gun, but in my opinion the Essence saved is well worth it. |
I'd rather be a mystic adept and do it... that way you get more available metamagical techniques than as a full mage.
Besides, between low lite and astral perception there isn't much that can hide from you...
If you become an MA then you have to buy Astral Perception with power points, and you can't ever project.
True. IMO a good tradeoff with 5 points lower cost to boot. As long as you can never take drain thanks to silly high drain dice it wont matter that you have magic 5 with 3 in spellcasting/conjuring and 1 in Astral Perc and another 1 point in whatever when you can ignore the drain. If anything that buildout makes it so casting while astrally perceiving makes more sense.
I'm not saying its without risks, but it does allow for more Metamagical fluff.
I'm not saying its without risks, but it does allow for more Metamagical fluff.
I was originally going to post my own worthless opinion, but since reading your posts I am humbled. Im trying to make a human mystic adept dark mage with owl mentor spirit and while I will definately post my own thread for advise later, could someone give me the actual usefullness of these spells?
- Fashion
- Increase [Charisma]
- Inrease Reflexes
- Resist Pain
- Levitate
- Physical Barrier
- Offensive Mana Barrier
- Orgy
| QUOTE (nathanross) |
I was originally going to post my own worthless opinion, but since reading your posts I am humbled. Im trying to make a human mystic adept dark mage with owl mentor spirit and while I will definately post my own thread for advise later, could someone give me the actual usefullness of these spells?
|
[*]Fashion
A beautiful spell. I've seen it used to morph clothes into that of workmen for infiltration, to turn clothes bright orange on prisoners to hinder them escaping, to making clothes camouflagued to aid in hiding. Its also loved by Face characters so their clothes always complement the social scene they are in. Also note that Makeover allows you to alter your meat appearance with everything a spa could do which arguably could include hair dies, makeup, sun tanning, etc. Together these two spells are great utility for a group and are permenent!
[*]Increase [Charisma]
Each hit gives you more money. You do the math. If you have Commanding Voice as an MA or if you use Charisma for drain also good. Note that this spell BREAKS the TM system since a TM can only have a number of Sprites equal to their charisma much like a mage/MA can only have spirits equal to Charisma.
[*]Increase Reflexes
Go first, go often. 'Nuff said.
[*]Resist Pain
You cant heal drain with magic but you can ignore it with this spell. Worth its weight in gold.
[*]Levitate
not as handy as Magic Fingers but still handy. Not as good for opening doors, picking up guns to shoot them via telekinesis but still good for levitate-assisted jumping aka the matrix movie, and good for picking up hand to hand characters to frustrate their day.
[*]Physical Barrier
If you could place a wall anywhere what could YOU do with it? Make a bridge to cross rooftops? Make a landing pad for a chopper? A slide to get off a rooftop? Just imagine it, chummer...
[*]Offensive Mana Barrier
Cast between floors in an elevator guards wont know its coming or be able to stop it. It not only aids in magical defense it screws up foci and spirits crossing it AND does damage to sneaky things 'pressing through' it. Nice spell.
[*]Orgy
I personally think there are better choices out there than this one. Statistically its a good spell but the effect of introducing this sort of spell at the game table promotes immature game play in a very mature game. Its more suitable for hentei or a humor based game maybe. Consider other debilitating spells or, better yet, have a spirit use a debilitating power like accident, confusion or fear so the enemy can't use counterspelling to block or dispel it.
| QUOTE (Wasabi) |
| I'd rather be a mystic adept and do it... that way you get more available metamagical techniques than as a full mage. |
Well personally I've always thought that Mystic Adepts were overrated provided that the DM kept the Mystic & Adept portions of the character's Magic Rating as seperated as they should. As for more Metamagics, true, they do get more to choose from, but given the costs involved I don't see a full Mage ever really running out of good choices in the first place.
| QUOTE (Wasabi) |
| Besides, between low lite and astral perception there isn't much that can hide from you... |
*Shrugs* To each their own then, although remember that not all Mages are metahuman and that when a caster is required to make a Perception Test just to see the target in the first place you are going to get hit with the negative Vision Modifiers twice.
Besides, I'd rather not pigeon-hole myself into allowing my enemies the ability to virtually take away my most potent weapon with something as simple as controling the lighting of any given area.
By low lite I meant the .25 magic Adept power that grants it. Astral Perception doesnt preclude the use of Adept Powers, right? 
Metahuman works too I guess but I almost always play humans if I'm not a Face. Elves are just toooo sexy as Face characters with their bonus CHA.
Mages have TONS of great choices. TONS. No argument there... my point is more of doing something eacky, different, maybe based on a theme, and breaking new ground... ya know?
What do you mean by "as seperated as they should"? I'd like to understand your perspective on it.
Metahuman works too I guess but I almost always play humans if I'm not a Face. Elves are just toooo sexy as Face characters with their bonus CHA.
Mages have TONS of great choices. TONS. No argument there... my point is more of doing something eacky, different, maybe based on a theme, and breaking new ground... ya know?
What do you mean by "as seperated as they should"? I'd like to understand your perspective on it.
True, Vision Mods are Vision Mods whether you get them from tech, spells, adept powers, or inherited genes, I just believe that you tend to get more bang for your buck through tech in this case as you can get them all in one cheap and easy to pay for package. But then again I also believe that the Sample Characters to the contary 'pure' Awakened people who have never gotten so much as a single implant should be a tiny minority since there is just so much added edge a point of burnt Essence can buy a character.
.....
As for Mystic Adepts and keeping their Magic seperate as they should be from each other, well thats mostly a hold-over gut-reaction I have from the arguments where people were trying to claim that Mystic Adepts should be able to use their full Magic Rating for alot more then they actually can, most recently that having a magic rating of 6 (4) (Mystic 0 / Adept 4 / Burnt 2) should grant a character access to Counterspelling, ect. Although I do go a step further then RAW suggests and limit the max level of Adept Powers based off the 'Adept' Magic Rating instead of the full Magic Rating since Spell/Spirit Force is likewise limited...
.....
However, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that Mystic Adepts are gimped or that playing a theme isn't a great idea, but when it comes down to a face-off between the two, more often then not my money is going to be on a full Mage, especially if he has burnt his sixth point of Magic for a few choice pieces of cyber/Bio because every point of Magic that the Mystic Adept places in his Adept side weakens his far more versable Mystic Arts.
.....
As for Mystic Adepts and keeping their Magic seperate as they should be from each other, well thats mostly a hold-over gut-reaction I have from the arguments where people were trying to claim that Mystic Adepts should be able to use their full Magic Rating for alot more then they actually can, most recently that having a magic rating of 6 (4) (Mystic 0 / Adept 4 / Burnt 2) should grant a character access to Counterspelling, ect. Although I do go a step further then RAW suggests and limit the max level of Adept Powers based off the 'Adept' Magic Rating instead of the full Magic Rating since Spell/Spirit Force is likewise limited...
.....
However, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that Mystic Adepts are gimped or that playing a theme isn't a great idea, but when it comes down to a face-off between the two, more often then not my money is going to be on a full Mage, especially if he has burnt his sixth point of Magic for a few choice pieces of cyber/Bio because every point of Magic that the Mystic Adept places in his Adept side weakens his far more versable Mystic Arts.
While we have such a great magic post going, I might as well throw in some other quetions for those who have been around the block more times than I ( )
What is the best/most effective drain attribute?
And leading from that, what are the best spirits, and thus tradition?
PS-Try and classify possession trads seperate as they are a slightly different ball game.
)What is the best/most effective drain attribute?
And leading from that, what are the best spirits, and thus tradition?
PS-Try and classify possession trads seperate as they are a slightly different ball game.
| QUOTE (nathanross @ Apr 23 2007, 11:55 PM) |
| While we have such a great magic post going, I might as well throw in some other quetions for those who have been around the block more times than I ( ) What is the best/most effective drain attribute? And leading from that, what are the best spirits, and thus tradition? PS-Try and classify possession trads seperate as they are a slightly different ball game. |
I hate to be lame and give you the old "Each attribute is great in it's own way" cop out... but I have no choice. They're all potentially awesome.
Intuition as a drain stat kicks butt, since it's great for perception rolls, assensing, increasing initiative and allowing Orks to make competent, cost-effective Mages. I mean, really, let's face it, everyone's going to want a decent intuition anyway, so the synergy you can attain is wonderful. If you're trying to make a decent mage who also manages to have well-rounded attributes, then an Ork intuition mage is the way to go, bar none.
Charisma, on the other hand, just screams out for Elf Magi. A good elf Shaman can absorb drain with the best of them, and a high charisma goes great with a Mystic Adept with a level or two of kinesics. Regardless, being able to default to respectable social dice is a boon for any character, since sometimes you just can't avoid having to roll for etiquette. Charisma traditions are also a lot more likely to have the dice to meet the threshold of those potentially nasty Charisma+Will (3) tests mentor spirits demand.
Logic would probably be the crappiest drain attribute going if it weren't for the fact that Cerebral boosters makes taking an essence hit for some 'ware very attractive. A human with a cerebral booster can match an elf shaman in drain dice for a fraction of the cost, and dwarf can actually -beat- the elf in drain resistance, and all that's required is a willingness to drop down to 4 magic instead of 5. It's the path I took for my own mage, and long term, my goal is to someday have a Cerebral Booster 3, a Pain editor and a Delta Skillwire 2 system. If my mage lives that long, it will be very, very sexy.
Best spirits and therefore tradition: Voodoo or any custom tradition. You're going to want Guardian, Guidance, Task and Spirits of Man. I don't even really think it's debateable. They're each ridiculously powerful in their own right and their abilities are courteous enough not to overlap too much, unlike the elemental heavy traditions. Voodoo features all 4 of those plus Water spirits. I'd prefer Air spirits over Water, to be honest, due to their speed and awesome movement power, but Water spirits have a decent movement power of their own, so that's really not much of an issue. Man spirits are just famously abuseable. The new SM spirits are good enough to justify their own paragraph
It's borderline shameful how much the new SM spirits outclass the old ones (well, except for Man spirits). Really, the fact that guardian and guidance spirits can counterspell alone would have been enough to push them near the top of the heap. But no, Fanpro had to go and make it so Guidance spirits can use Divining Metamagic as well as having the Arcana score to go with it. That's right, they can divine, counterspell AND design spells. Guardian spirits can take combat skills as an optional power. You could make a force 10 spirit with hardened armor and give him a rocket launcher and he'd tear everyone a new one, if you wanted to
Task spirits are less overtly overpowered, but they're still one of the best ways to abuse downtime I've ever seen, since they can take any physical or technical skill you want as an optional power.
I have to second Whipstitch (nice name, btw) with Voodoo. The outrageous preponderance of the new spirit types along with Spirit of Man gives a big boost. Possession has its downside and I think on balance I would prefer a materialising tradition in terms of power, but that spirit selection is pretty impressive.
The Islamic tradition mixes in plant and guardian along with the mainstays of Fire, Earth and Air, so I rate them as a good combat tradition in that regard (plant spirits get regeneration if you can invoke them).
But there's no ultimate tradition, I think. Shadowrun is an eternal game of rock, paper, scissors.
What Whipstitch said. Its right on the money. The Intuition traditions also tend to be very good for knowledge skill heavy characters. IMO the Intuition line of knowledge skills are even better than the Logic line.
I would consider all aspects of a tradition before making an evaluation of the tradition.
First of all the Drain attribute that the tradition uses. Like the other posters have mentioned, Intuition comes in at first place for me. This decides the tradition that I'd choose. No matter whichever Magic skill you want to use as a primary weapon/tool, you will need to resist Drain with that attribute.
Next is spirit selection. OK, here is where Whip's evaluation and mine differ. The selection of spirits is important if you are Binding them, because this way you get a toolbox to select from and in this case, it doesn't really matter very much if it is a Materialization tradition or a Possession tradition because quite possibly you have a prepared vessel for your spirit if you are a Possession tradition. But what if you went with just the Summoning skill instead of the Conjuring skill group(take a look at any of the magic char threads, how many Binding skills do you see?)? You can have only 1 unbound spirit at any time. So all you need to do is make sure that the spirit you summoned is the most "powerful/useful" one and it cannot be tied to a vessel since I might want it help me scout/fight in astral, hence a Materialization tradition. To me, the 3 most important powers are Concealment(a better Improved Invis), Guard and Magical Guard and the spirit with all 3 is Plant. My personal call would be the Druidic tradition. Air is the best Elemental spirit, IMO and Druids even have access to Beast for greater versatility.
First of all the Drain attribute that the tradition uses. Like the other posters have mentioned, Intuition comes in at first place for me. This decides the tradition that I'd choose. No matter whichever Magic skill you want to use as a primary weapon/tool, you will need to resist Drain with that attribute.
Next is spirit selection. OK, here is where Whip's evaluation and mine differ. The selection of spirits is important if you are Binding them, because this way you get a toolbox to select from and in this case, it doesn't really matter very much if it is a Materialization tradition or a Possession tradition because quite possibly you have a prepared vessel for your spirit if you are a Possession tradition. But what if you went with just the Summoning skill instead of the Conjuring skill group(take a look at any of the magic char threads, how many Binding skills do you see?)? You can have only 1 unbound spirit at any time. So all you need to do is make sure that the spirit you summoned is the most "powerful/useful" one and it cannot be tied to a vessel since I might want it help me scout/fight in astral, hence a Materialization tradition. To me, the 3 most important powers are Concealment(a better Improved Invis), Guard and Magical Guard and the spirit with all 3 is Plant. My personal call would be the Druidic tradition. Air is the best Elemental spirit, IMO and Druids even have access to Beast for greater versatility.
Yeah, the fact that I'm one of the few people who actually binds stuff and vastly prefers materialization traditions shows through on this one. But yeah, plant spirits are pretty good, and my favorite thing about Plant spirits is that they come with Silence. As for concealment, however, I agree with you that it is an awesome ability, but it seems like just about every spirit has it at as an optional power, so it's not something I worry about too much. This is compounded by my opinion that the Plant spirit optional powers aren't really all that great either. For what it's worth, you should note that if you want to, a force 6 Guardian Spirit can come with Concealment and Animal control as optional powers if need be.
If you're going to make an all-around mage you might have to sub-optimize a bit and take Magic 3 at chargen. This isn't too horrible, since you'd still have a pool of probably 7 for casting and summoning which you can augment with foci to 9 or 10 (power or spell/summon). You'd have to adapt your style of play a little bit since the force 5-6 spirits are vastly more effective than the 3's you'll be summoning but with some smarts and a GM who encourages creativity you should be good to go.
The problems are that most of the time, the spirit's Force is 5 or less and none of the canon Intuition traditions have Guardian.
I would also suggest heal and influence (we are not the suspects you are looking for) spells as a staple.
If the team has decided to specialize (Item Recovery, Infiltration, Extraction, Wetwork, Wilderness, Multi-Cultural) then it would help to pick spells along that vein.
If the team has decided to specialize (Item Recovery, Infiltration, Extraction, Wetwork, Wilderness, Multi-Cultural) then it would help to pick spells along that vein.
Plant, guidance, and guardian spirits can Counterspell/dispel. Nuff said.
So I see that the new spirits rock the world, but what do you miss not having that goodness of a spirit of man? I have seen how bomb innate spell is, but is it worth giving it up for guidance or plant?
| QUOTE |
| Best spirits and therefore tradition: Voodoo or any custom tradition. You're going to want Guardian, Guidance, Task and Spirits of Man. I don't even really think it's debateable. They're each ridiculously powerful in their own right and their abilities are courteous enough not to overlap too much, unlike the elemental heavy traditions. Voodoo features all 4 of those plus Water spirits. I'd prefer Air spirits over Water, to be honest, due to their speed and awesome movement power, but Water spirits have a decent movement power of their own, so that's really not much of an issue. Man spirits are just famously abuseable. The new SM spirits are good enough to justify their own paragraph |
Agreed totally. I've been toying around with an idea for a new materialization tradition (Arcanist) based around the humanoid spirits+air. No matter how I slice it, it still looks like voodoo without the possession or the threat connotations. The humanoid spirits are just too dang useful. Guardian gets elemental attack (still not sure which type, or if you can choose anything), and combat skills to use mundane weapons, Guidance gets divination, Man gets spells, Task is the Gerber multi-tool (who needs the Swiss Army?). The combination also makes for really nasty allies.
Drain stat, assuming you're going with a custom tradition, is harder. I'd tend to think Intuition or Logic (the latter for Cerebral Boosters), but Elf CHA can be nice. One thing to note... if you're somehow getting permission to do your own tradition, you should expect spell formulas in your tradition to be extremely hard to come by.
On some of the earlier stuff, cybereyes 3 (stuffed with vismods), platelets, cerebral booster if you use Logic, Pain Editor if you can afford it, and some decent wires are all good buys. More IP would be nice, but a F4 sustaining focus is probably a better choice for that.
| QUOTE (toturi @ Apr 24 2007, 10:35 AM) |
| The problems are that most of the time, the spirit's Force is 5 or less and none of the canon Intuition traditions have Guardian. |
Agreed there. The good thing is even a Force 3 Guardian can have Concealment, thank god. I agree with just about all of the logic you use in defense of the Druidic tradition, but I just can't quite pull the trigger on giving up Spirits of Man and some of the cheesier things you can do with them. Druidic is definitely worth taking if your GM won't let you create a custom tradition, but that's really probably the only time I'd ever consider it, honestly.
As long as we're on the subject of custom traditions, my own mage is running under one. Basically, he's an offshoot of the Chaos/Hermetic logic traditions who specializes in Astral theory, Spirits of Man and other variations of "thought elementals". He believes that by working strictly by the numbers in a passive, emotionless state, he can summon "thought elementals" that have already been conjured before, allowing him to pick up spirits that reflect the abilities and psyche of other Awakened beings rather than shaping them with his own unconscious. He summons Man (Illusion), Guidance(Detection), Guardian(Health), Task(Manipulation) and Beast(Combat) spirits by essentially creating a mental template that allows him to reel in the Spirit that best matches the capabilities he's looking for, but the personality and other traits of the spirit are left up to fate.
He'd be pretty munchkinish thanks to that spirit selection, except I talked things over with my GM enough beforehand while creating the guy that we were able to make things work to our satisfaction. For one thing, because he does not impose his will on his spirits nor really understand them, they are considerably more unruly and unpredictable than they'd be if he summoned spirits that are a reflection of himself (My mage is essentially considered Cursed 2 for the purposes of Spirit wrangling). Also, if I had really wanted to UTTERLY min-max the spirit selection, I probably should have gone with Air or plant spirits instead of beast spirits, but that would hardly of fit the theme I had going. After all, a Beast spirit that reflects the bestial nature of the wendigo or naga who last summoned it makes a helluva lot more sense in my tradition than an air spirit, so I never even bothered bringing any other alternative up to my GM.
| QUOTE (nathanross @ Apr 24 2007, 03:05 PM) |
| So I see that the new spirits rock the world, but what do you miss not having that goodness of a spirit of man? I have seen how bomb innate spell is, but is it worth giving it up for guidance or plant? |
Plant is much like a counterspelling Earth Spirit. Innate Spell can be insanely useful if your repertoire is broad.
Guidance is all about the Divining Metamagic and counterspelling. All in all I find Task the most entertaining. Its like summoning disposible riggers and disposible door-pickers.
You don't have to give up Spirits of Man. The Shinto tradition has Plant Spirits and Spirits of Man, while the Zoroastrian tradition has Guardian spirits and Spirits of Man.
One thing that hasn't been addressed yet is magical foci. My favorite mix is a Force: 3 Counterspelling/Combat Focus and a Force: 2 Power Focus. The first for defense, and the second one for everything else. Spirit and Spell foci are not worth your time. The Power Focus can be used for casting any spell or using any conjuring skill.
Sustaining Foci, I tend to avoid at char-gen. With Availability rules, you can't get them at an effective level - meaning a level where you can get the full benefit of the spell that you are sustaining. That's usually Force: 4 for Increased Reflexes (to be able to get 3 additional initiative passes) and Force: 5 for spells like Improved Invisibility (you want to be able to get successes equal to the spell's Force for a resisted spell). So generally, it is better to buy Sustaining Foci after char-gen.
One thing that hasn't been addressed yet is magical foci. My favorite mix is a Force: 3 Counterspelling/Combat Focus and a Force: 2 Power Focus. The first for defense, and the second one for everything else. Spirit and Spell foci are not worth your time. The Power Focus can be used for casting any spell or using any conjuring skill.
Sustaining Foci, I tend to avoid at char-gen. With Availability rules, you can't get them at an effective level - meaning a level where you can get the full benefit of the spell that you are sustaining. That's usually Force: 4 for Increased Reflexes (to be able to get 3 additional initiative passes) and Force: 5 for spells like Improved Invisibility (you want to be able to get successes equal to the spell's Force for a resisted spell). So generally, it is better to buy Sustaining Foci after char-gen.
Yeah, power foci are awesome. It's even better than just any conjuring or spellcasting test; it's a dice bonus to your Magic pool when making a test. Bypassing barriers, enchanting tests, you name it. If you follow a strict reading of the rules, Mystic Adepts should be able to apply power focus dice to Adept powers like Empathic Healing and Attribute Boost. That's why my GM actually allows Adepts to take a Power focus if they really want to, although no one has taken him up on it yet.
| QUOTE (Glyph) |
| Sustaining Foci, I tend to avoid at char-gen. With Availability rules, you can't get them at an effective level - meaning a level where you can get the full benefit of the spell that you are sustaining. That's usually Force: 4 for Increased Reflexes (to be able to get 3 additional initiative passes) and Force: 5 for spells like Improved Invisibility (you want to be able to get successes equal to the spell's Force for a resisted spell). So generally, it is better to buy Sustaining Foci after char-gen. |
The Force limitation is a problem for Sustaining Foci unless you sleaze around it with Edge dice (SR4 p. 171-172).
Thanks all, (though I wasnt the original poster). Ive decided on a Buddhist Mystic Adept (still Owl mentor), with skillwires, cybereyes, and a hole for pain editor.
@Glyph, I dont mean to say that you cant get new spirits with spirits of man, just nothing with Intuition drain att. I should have stated that (I assume the drain att. is more important than the spirits?)
@Gods of Shadowrun, Im humby beg your forgiveness for telling my team mate (who is playing an elf) that plant and guidance spirits were worthless, and that he should play a black mage instead (Thinking back on it, he probably should have chosen Shinto, since that has his drain att., spirits of man, plant, and air, and goes with his Japanese background. Please forgive me.
@Glyph, I dont mean to say that you cant get new spirits with spirits of man, just nothing with Intuition drain att. I should have stated that (I assume the drain att. is more important than the spirits?)
@Gods of Shadowrun, Im humby beg your forgiveness for telling my team mate (who is playing an elf) that plant and guidance spirits were worthless, and that he should play a black mage instead (Thinking back on it, he probably should have chosen Shinto, since that has his drain att., spirits of man, plant, and air, and goes with his Japanese background. Please forgive me.
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