So the group I am in restarted the campaign, and the player with the most annoying concept asked if he could re-spin his Character keeping the exactly the same background.

Although the GM said sure, we were talking afterwards about just killing the character for spite if he continued along the same path as he was with the previous one.

My suggestion was either to make him create a new character, or . . .
Alter the characters background to something akin to the Manchurian Candidate.

But the question I was wondering is how often does Player Character Death occure in most games?

And is it wrong to look at a Player and say, "A toilet seat from a semi-ballistic plane that was taken out by terrorists slams into you at high velocity as your standing there wondering ???."?

I'm an SR player, but a DnD DM. I'd say that 25% of missions should have a lethal quality if the players don't pay attention, but I'd NEVER design a mission that was certain to kill a certain player without their permission. They look so sad when their characters die unexpectedly.

Unless desired by the player I don't believe character death should be an inevitability, however the threat must exist on a good portion of the runs to create grit, and if the characters get careless, sloppy, or just really unlucky then they may perish, its a charm of the system and setting.

I voted "Depends on Players."

Dead Like Me was an awesome show. 10 Karma for you.

I rarely actually tried to kill any PCs. Missions wouldn't be easy, but as long as they didn't do anything stupid or if they were just getting bad rolls and didn't make a habit of pissing off the GM, then I'd cut them a little slack, even if that meant them waking up in a Corp infirmary being put back together.

There have a been a couple of players though that just asked for it. You know the kind: the ones who are a royal pain in the ass game after game, munch chips with their mouth open, rules lawyering, etc. I had one who so desparately wanted to get a Nightsky limo that he drove me freaking nuts. Well, finally there was a run where a target had to be abducted who was riding in one. The team had a sweet plan for taking them down with no fuss, but this jerk off shoots the driver anyway and gloats all night and into the next session. The rest of the group was sick of this guy too, so, while his character was driving to a meet, yes a mangy runner (and he was one) in a Nightsky and Lone Star tries to stop him. He would, a chase ensues which is ended with a little help from a Corp Yellowjacket piloted by a friend of the driver this fellow killed. 2 AVGMs later, no more Nightsky and a PC Tanamous wouldn't even want.

Most of the time though characters only die if they are stupid, which includes being too stupid to cut and run on a mission if need be.

I voted depends on the players. Some players like a more hardcore campaign than others; and i try to tailor on what is going to give the players the most fun. Some prefer lower action, lower danger more laid back games, others high danger, high lethal, and some like a little of column A, and a little of column B.


Occationaly i come up with a module that is alot of one or the other; i ask the players if they would be interested in playing it. Modules are a little different in the way that you can create characters specificly for it, and not use long played favorites if it's a really bad ones.

However, if the players just walk into really bad situations, they tend to get what they asked for.

I do keep in mind the newer system and the Edge burning system makes things considerably easier on the characters than the old Hand of God system. It sort of leaves things open to create a little more deadly scenarios without the fear of losing a long-time beloved character.

Character death is always a touchy subject. In one camp you have the ''its a hard world, you make mistakes, you should pay dearly, and no extra chances, i don't care if youve played the character for a year'' and the other ''sometimes the dice just do nasty things, when the player did everything right, and these people shouldn't be punished so harshly for something beyond control''. Too little death cheapens the game(some say, again, some people like a more laid back or cinematic type of game), and too much just makes it not fun(again, to others, some like a game where you need the hypothetical clone sixpack.) Others are in the middle.

I think its best to keep your style open and adjust for players.

I've never "tried" to kill a player, either in SR or DnD. Sometimes the player may not be cautious of that "next hit could kill me" and if it does, I let it happen, but that was their choice to not retreat or go defensive. If they have no regard for their mortality, than neither do I.

But normally, "dying" means going into negative points and unconscious, to be revived later, so not too big a deal from a long-term campaign standpoint. I make sure that the threat of dying is all around, having close friends or trusted contacts die, showing that I am not afraid to do it, but as long as they are playing "smart", then I just try and be fair.

I will say that almost every encounter (minus the ones that they are certain to overpower) my players get the feel that they could die. Seeing only 10 or 11 boxes on their sheet certainly is a painful reminder that they can't take too many hits! And they play accordingly with strategy, cover and full defense, so its all good!

I think the biggest issue should not be trying to kill PCs but not not trying to kill PCs. PLay your NPCs in a way you feel is realistic and if the PCs screw up then don't be afraid to make them face the logical consequences of that.

I've actually been deliberately upping the lethality of my game recently. We've had no deaths thus far, in part because I've been fudging things in favor of the players. They've had good careers by now and I don't feel they need or deserve that protection anymore. There's always burning Edge if they really want to, right?

That said, I don't gun for players. I'm not looking to fill bodybags/collect shredded sheets. But, well, a death or near-death to remind them that it's a real concern wouldn't hurt if it did happen.

My POV, if it's a big nasty combat, people are going to get shot p and die. but I'm pretty lenient with second chances (HoG, DocWagon, skilled irst aid/magical healing etc). There have been a few occassions where a character just had to stay dead from combat, like, say, he got blown up. A lot.

Otherwise, the few times when dead is just dead is if it's very clear cut like a major plot agains them or killed by another PC, etc. These have all happened in my games. PCs cleaning up "loose ends" for example. That's always fun, you know, when your PC becomes a "loose end". Pc vs PC ala Spy vs Spy can be fun.

I think that the rules are made so that you can't really die instantly without being able to see it coming. What I do is just play the rules as they are.
If they say that the PC has to die, he will. If the PC can use Edge/patches/magic or anything to prevent his death, he can do it.

So as soon as there's combat, there's a possibility that the PC could die.

As for putting the PC in situations that will get them killed I just try to be realistic. If they accept a mission too dangerous for them, mess with the wrong guy or anything like that, they can get themselves in really dangerous situations.

...nearly had my first PC death & the odd thing was, it was during "downtime" before the next mission.

It was a mage character who wanted to summon and bind a spirit during weeks between sessions. Well this was a case of "dice unkind" on both the character's and my part. All but one die for the spirit (a force 4) were hits while the mage rolled no hits on her drain & went unconscious (but thankfully in her case not a glitch). Of course, the spirit (a spirit of fire none the less) did what they do when a binding attempt goes awry and attacked her. Fortunately another mage was there and took one of the attacks which would have definitely done in the summoner (who was down to I believe 2 boxes on her physical track) before taking the spirit out.

and like I said, we hadn't even made it to the initial meet yet.

I died on a rating 2 astral quest once.

I went with Depends on the players, cause for me, that includes when they deserve it.

...one of the best (and most humourous) was a troll mage with Charisma 1 (SR2) who summoned a force 3 city spirit. This was his first attempt at summoning and the drain was Deadly P. He rolled no successes on his resistance test.

Hmm... Maybe my GM's have been too polite. I've almost never seen a PC death, then again I've only played with a small group of me, my two brothers, and my two brother's friends. But this was not SR rather a homebrew hack'n'slash game. (Massive critter death, a little Monty Haul at times though, heh good times.)

Why doesn't SR allow clone drops?

Ideally missions should be challenging, the opposition should be determined, and Pdeath should occur when the dice fall as they may. If there weren't a risk of death there'd be no point to playing strategically and keeping track of character stats. I don't think a GM should necessarily set out to specifically kill a character but he should set the stage to where that's always a possibility.

A shaman in the game I play in knocked herself out trying to bind a force 5 spirit. Very unlucky dice roll. Fortunately it was an air spirit, and she has an affinity for air spirits, and she has not in the past attempted to abuse spirits, so what with the player being a noob, the gm let it slide.

I voted depends on the players.

I have found SR4 more lethal, no actual deaths yet but quite a lot of edge burning has gone on.

I almost never kill off pc's. Forcing them into retirment is a different option, but only if they give me a good story as to how to do it.
Of course going inot overflow happens on a semi regular basis.

Twice i have had players or characters die on me mostly because of stupidity.

case 1, (he should have died but somehow survived) GM is running DNA/DOA module and new kid joins the group just as we're entering the sewers to access the lab, i forget what the kid was running except that it was a street sam that was just out and out insane and he took risks that while it didnt put HIM in direct danger, it endangered the rest of the group. We narcojetted him and left him in the lab with the creatures running about. somehow he survived.

case 2, (this one was my character, an aspected wolf shaman) we're pulling a raid through the andes mountains into the interior and its through an underground access through the entire mountains, (Think the orc caves of "The Hobbit"), we have gone in to rescue the scientists and recover their data and have been facing wave upon wave of semi-intelligent ghouls which of course we have laid waste to. But in scrounging ammo and grenades from the Ghouls i manage to become somewhat infected and unknowingly get astral perception from the disease. i catch a flicker in the edge of my vision so i go full astral perception and see the forece 10 fire elemental approaching. Screaming out fire elemental i hit it with the most potent spirit blast spell i can, which does nothing but get its attention. Then with my character standing in a pile of ghoul bodies with white phosphorus grenades on their harnesses, the fire elemental manifests and engulfs me. The GM asks if i want to roll to fight it, i tell him, Whats the point, the minute one of the grenades goes off i'm toast anyway, not to mention the 50 round drum of EX Explosive ammo on my harness. He responds, "Oh Yeah i forgot about that" and allows me to crumple the character sheet. The character was just a trial for me though so i didnt have much invested in it.

This is not DnD you shouldn't feel its your job to kill players.

...? i don't feel it's my job to kill the players when i do run D&D.

I agree - as a GM I try to give the players the feeling that the setting is alive and realistic. I don't fudge rolls to keep characters alive and I try to base the reactions on realism - most of the time, at least. Sometime I run games that are based along clichés, that needs Evil Villains with a megalomanic side and "I'll die before surrender" tattooed on their chest.

That's really the point where you want to use [Insert highest social skill] on it. If it isn't following orders that require it to kill you immediately, talking to it can at least buy some time. Plenty of people forget that Shadowrun isn't like a CRPG where you can't talk to anyone who is hostile. Using a social skill during combat wastes actions that could be used for fighting, but if you can't possibly win then there is no harm in trying.

In my opinion death should always be looming. You definitly should be willing to let it happen. I always felt (and know from being a player), that psychology changes when players know/suspect the GM isn't likely to kill them.

I actually rather like the whole burning edge thing because it really lets you "let the dice fall where they may". And really makes the chars think about what they're doing. However, as above, typically I think what happens should be cinimatic and not go their way. i.e. they can't just use it as a deflector shield when some LS yellowjacket gets the drop on them. I'd have the vehicle explode throwing them into a flooded drainage disk sans a limb or two.

I once played 'another game' with a kid whose entire RPG experience came from playing with his parents (which is scary).

Our group runs some lethal games, we don't feel the need to save a character because a player doesn't think.

So, when this idiot died because his character didn't run when it was appropriate to run, he got mad and stopped playing for a good two months because it was the first time ever any of his characters had ever died, ever, period.

Slightly too much deaths are far better than not enough, IMO. Especially for a dark game like Shadowrun.

I voted "When they deserve it." We all have our characters that we love and we want to never die, but playing them becomes meaningless if they simply CAN'T die.

So, when the player goofs, and his character dies...that's it. That's life in the shadows, omae. There ain't no fairy godmother who's going to give you a second chance or any of that drek. Just you and the worms.

It's when a player is rolling 13 dice on his Fireball and it comes up all 1's that I'll allow a character to live, ironically enough. Runners can survive impossible odds. What they have a harder time surviving is their own stupidity.