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TheNarrator
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
If he was an adept, he would have been detected as such by the magicians he went up against. The fact that he was able to skate past them without triggering alarms indicates that he has no magical talent.

What magicians? The only magician we saw in Cowboy Bebop (excluding the Fung Shui guy who never met Spike) was the old tribal shaman who predicted his future for him in the first and last episodes.

Anyway, wetware is also detectable by magicians. Assensing gives you the target's cyberware with enough successes.

Lastly, CB is an un-Awakened world, so anyone with adept powers would just be seen as having "innate natural talent". Which is why "adept" often becomes the fallback when you're trying to make a Shadowrun version of characters from another fictional universe who doesn't have much cyber.

Honestly, were it not for the initiative issue, I'd say Spike doesn't need 'ware or magic. Stats could be raised as high as 9 (in SR3, at least) without them, just by expenditure of Karma, and skills are unlimited if you've got the practice and experience put in on them. Spike could just have Quickness 9, Strength and Body 6 or better, good stats for Willpower, Intelligence and Charisma, with a huge skill rating in things like Unarmed Combat, Pistols and Piloting, a fair bit in Athletics and Stealth and none in Computers or Electronics. biggrin.gif The only problem then is the lack of initiative bonuses (which is a non-issue if no one else has magic or reaction-boosting cyberware) and that can be countered by having him be a (pre-awakening?) adept with Improved Reflexes 3 taking up all his magic points.

But yes, I suppose his physical capabilities can also be done with cyber/bioware. But to me the real key to Spike is in his skills and personality. The physical stats are just icing on the cake.

Oh, and no Ambidexterity. Every time Spike tries to dual-wield he gets gut-shot. He's definitely taking the +2 target number penalty.
Kagetenshi
He could have Exceptional Quickness and go to 11.

~J
TheNarrator
I could certainly see Spike being one of the fastest human beings alive. smile.gif

Remember, if you're not limiting yourself to a starting character (and Spike is certainly no starting character) then you can get physical stats just as high without bioware (which can't be better than the physical max anyway) through karma expenditure (i.e. exercise). And Mental stats can go higher.
mfb
again, i'd personally go for a cybered (or, as FrankTrollman has pointed out, biowared) adept, simply to take advantage of the whole fall-from-grace thing. it's less a way to capture his abilities than it is a stylistic thing. bitterness over lost treasures is built right into the concept.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (TheNarrator @ Oct 26 2005, 01:54 AM)
QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Oct 25 2005, 11:46 PM)
If he was an adept, he would have been detected as such by the magicians he went up against. The fact that he was able to skate past them without triggering alarms indicates that he has no magical talent.

What magicians? The only magician we saw in Cowboy Bebop (excluding the Fung Shui guy who never met Spike) was the old tribal shaman who predicted his future for him in the first and last episodes.

Well, Mad Perrot was a pretty powerful psycic with translates to a psionic magician in SR terms. Altough, I'm not sure if psionists have access to astral. I'll have to check. I don't think Peroit would have cared either way, really.

Lets forget about Spike and make a character based on the real star of the show, Andy.
Kyuhan
I always viewed Mad Perriot as the victim of some powerful gene splicing (electric eels maybe) and cyber (nano?), granted in SR he'd probably have to be awakened or whatever.
TheNarrator
Agreed. Mad Perriot had technology working for him: personal energy shield, personal VTOL system, freaky genetic enhancements. That's your bioware guy right there. Plus, he was nuts. Totally fraggin' nuts. smile.gif

Andy? I'm not quite sure where to start. Low INT, and probably the first SR character ever to have a "Horseback Riding" skill. Plus, Knowledge Skill: Westerns.
Nikoli
My favorite characters were the 3 old farts that seem to have been everywhere and done everything. If ever there were 3 free spirits in CB that'd be them.
Toptomcat
Cowboy Bebop is actually so close to the Shadowrun setting- bounty hunting as a major activity, cyberlimbs, quasi-immersive VR, genetic manipulation expiriments, Native American shamans- that it can work as a kind of alternate 2070/80 with very little tweaking. I know the tone isn't strictly dystopic, but Shadowrun has been moving away from dystopia lately anyway.
maa01
QUOTE (TheNarrator)
Andy? I'm not quite sure where to start. Low INT, and probably the first SR character ever to have a "Horseback Riding" skill. Plus, Knowledge Skill: Westerns.

Maybe "Western Poser" as negative quality?
hyzmarca
QUOTE (TheNarrator @ Oct 26 2005, 01:33 PM)
Agreed. Mad Perriot had technology working for him: personal energy shield, personal VTOL system, freaky genetic enhancements. That's your bioware guy right there. Plus, he was nuts. Totally fraggin' nuts. smile.gif

Nah. He is an experment in creating a supermage from a SR standpoint.

The energy shield is just a very high force armor, high force hardened armor from a custom spell, or immunity to normal weapons from a custom spell. Remember, he loses it when he stops concentrating. Likewise, the VTOL is just an powerful levitate self spell.

Mad Pierrot had artificially augmented telekenetic powers. It was this argmentation that drove him nuts in the first place.


Lab Coat: Hey, we've invented a bran inplant that actually increases a magician's magic rating and even gives spellcasting abilities to mundanes.

Suit: How did you do that?

Lab Coat: It is bioware based on a Free Spirit's DNA.

Suit: How does a Free Spirit have DNA?

Lab Coat: No clue, you'll have to ask him. We just know that it works.

Suit: Any side effects.

Lab Coat: It slowly transforms the recipent into an insasible killing machine with the intellect of an infant and mastery of mana that rivals a Great Dragon, but nothing major. The mental degredation is a feature, really.
mfb
not dystopic? the earth has been rendered uninhabitable, crime dynasties own major parts of the solar system, and most of the human population lives in squalor.
Toptomcat
Not strictly dystopic. There are bright spots, identifiable 'good guys', moments of light humor- unlike, say, much of Gibson's work.
mfb
mneh, eh. that's got more to do with writing style than the world itself. you can write lighthearted stuff in a dystopic world, and you can write depressing stuff in a non-dystopic world.
Toptomcat
QUOTE
...I know the tone isn't strictly dystopic...

biggrin.gif
mfb
silence your talk-hole! i am never wrong!
pragma
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
Spike's normal combat routine against enemies is to take his first initiative pass as Full Defense, at which point he rolls way too many dice for anyone to do anything about. Then he has three more initiateive passes where he beats the living crap out of people.

Good point. I see where you are coming from much better. I'd still lean towards adept because there is no history of implants in the show (other than the eye) and I'm stuck in the natural talent point of view brought up earlier in the thread.

QUOTE (pragma)
Which begs the question of what the hell Frank is talking about.

I was referring specifically to the Smartlink III.
Toptomcat
In a world where nobody has access to reaction-boosting cyber or magic, Spike can be reasonably statted as a high-skill mundane.

In core Shadowrun, he is most closely approximated by an adept with a cybereye, and possibly a Smartlink of some flavor.

Does that seem to cover things?
mfb
yeah. you can't just make a straight port, because a Spike who exists in the world of SR would have had different options open to him than the Spike who exists in the world of CB.
eidolon
QUOTE
... but Shadowrun has been moving away from dystopia lately anyway.


Meh. Not in my games. smile.gif
Lucifer
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
QUOTE (mfb)
i recall him making some truly impressive shots. for instance, when he bullseyed that "kid", or when he made that shot in his ship while evading the multitude of space death-lasers. spike is as good a shot when nothing's going on as he is when the entire world is exploding around him. that's why, despite the fact that i'm tired of seeing every character conversion be an adept, i think Spike should be an adept--all those crazy stunts he pulls can be easily explained with Centering. modifiers don't matter to him, because he's a mid-grade adept and he just Centers through them.


Nah, he's just got a Smartlink II system or even a Smartlink III and vision mag and a damage compensator. He can be really messed up and at long range and have friendlies in and around the line of fire and still not suffer any negative mods.

There's no reason to believe that Spike is in any way magic, when biological enhancement could explain all of it.

QUOTE (mfb)
incidentally, we're forgetting a major chunk of Spike's skillset: flying. that dude is a ballet dancer with a giant cannon, in the cockpit.


Sounds like a Control Rig to me, but since he only has to come up with .2 more essence to fit it in somewhere, he probably just has some alphaware. And a Control Rig.

-Frank

Most of the shots Spike makes aren't very impressive by SR3 terms. The cases of 'coring' various slubs - the guy holding Faye at gunpoint, the Harmonica Kid (twice), etc. - are at short range against a stationary target.

You'll also notice in all or almost all of the cases, he spends at least three seconds just aiming at his target. This translates into at least 2 Take Aim actions... probably 3, since he only fired a single shot in each case (one full round of Take Aim, plus another simple action Take Aim and the other simple to shoot). Assume he's got a Smartlink and that's a total of -6 modifier. If he's got a Smartlink II, he's only eating a measly +2 for the called shot, even!

Yes, Spike is a good shot. So is a character with Pistols 6 or 7, Combat Pool 8+, a Smartlink, and a reasonable understanding of how the combat system works.

Faye? She's downright superhuman. She shoots the guns out of three or four peoples' hands before they can react. She shoots out the tire of a pursuing car while leaning out the back of a speeding convertible that's dodging grenade fire at ninety plus miles an hour - in one clean shot!

You have to consider things relatively. Spike, relatively speaking, is very good (a 6 or 7) but not the best in the world by any stretch of the imagination. He would, however, also be better diversified than most characters: Shotguns, Throwing Weapons, Gunnery, Vector Thrust Aircraft, as well as the standard Stealth (used for sleight-of-hand actions) and Athletics... he's worthy of 5-6 marks in a lot of fields rather than being a one-trick pony.
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (Lucifer)
Faye? She's downright superhuman. She shoots the guns out of three or four peoples' hands before they can react. She shoots out the tire of a pursuing car while leaning out the back of a speeding convertible that's dodging grenade fire at ninety plus miles an hour - in one clean shot!

All true. Of course, Faye is biologically enhanced. Also, she's really old.

-Frank
Kyuhan
How is Faye enhanced other than the fact she was in stasis for years (which doesn't count as enhancement anyway)?...or are you saying she'd have to be enhanced in SR to pull off the stunts she does? grinbig.gif
FrankTrollman
Let's just say that early neurological bioware worked on a process of brain tissue replacement and had memory loss as a side effect.

Also, if you just count the years she's spent outside of the fridge, she's really old. And remarkably well preserved.

-Frank
hyzmarca
23 isn't that old.
Toptomcat
The thing about Spike is not that he's a great shot or a Kung Fu master or good at dodging. It's that he's a fundamentally good gunfighter. Watch the last episode for the best example of this: he uses cover intelligently, predicts the gangsters' actions and lays traps for them, prioritizes targets, bypasses certain enemies rather than fight them, and identifies potential allies on a moment's notice.
This is not something that can easily be emulated in an RPG system: it'd be player skill, not character skill.
brohopcp
I agree with Toptomcat. You can't make a 'Spike'. Sure, the stats can be emulated or made, but it's just like trying to play Batman. The stats can be created, but the thinking process is impossible to emulate.

I could go on, but I'll stop my theories there before someone is insulted.
Toptomcat
I wouldn't go so far to say as it's impossible to emulate- just that it can't be done by purely game-mechanical means.
Critias
Though some Small Unit Tactics might help fake it, for those not normally inclined towards that method of thinking.
toturi
Yes, it can. The Common Sense Edge can emulate that in that the GM has to keep deeming everything else foolish except the course of action that will enable the PC to beat the NPCs.
Kagetenshi
I'll have to reread the wording, but I don't believe it implied that the GM should give the player help beyond what their character might know—for example, if they think they're safe at home and there's really a Ruthenium-cloaked assassin in the bathroom, and they've detected no sign of it, I don't believe the wording of the edge is such that the GM should deem the action of going to the bathroom foolish.

~J
toturi
Yes, but would the GM deem going to the bathroom foolish if the PC was Spike (or Batman)?
hyzmarca
QUOTE (toturi @ Oct 28 2005, 10:17 AM)
Yes, but would the GM deem going to the bathroom foolish if the PC was Spike (or Batman)?

Unless Batman has batdiapers under those tights I believe that the GM would deem it foolish for him to not go to the bathroom.

Of course, the GM might remind the player that he can use ultrasonic vision mods to see invisible people should he fear that there is one stalking him.
PlatonicPimp
hey, with the right cyber (Clean metabolism, Toxin filters), you may not even have to go to the bathroom. And if you do, it'll be potable drinking water. Yay!
Kyuhan
QUOTE
hey, with the right cyber (Clean metabolism, Toxin filters), you may not even have to go to the bathroom.
...what?
Lucifer
QUOTE (Toptomcat)
The thing about Spike is not that he's a great shot or a Kung Fu master or good at dodging. It's that he's a fundamentally good gunfighter. Watch the last episode for the best example of this: he uses cover intelligently, predicts the gangsters' actions and lays traps for them, prioritizes targets, bypasses certain enemies rather than fight them, and identifies potential allies on a moment's notice.
This is not something that can easily be emulated in an RPG system: it'd be player skill, not character skill.

I agree with what you're saying in general, though I disagree with saying he isn't a Kung Fu Master. The guy's at least World Class (8+), given that he's shown as at least the equal of everyone in the series, with the exception of Ed's father and Pierrot (hax!).

I wouldn't say he's a Killing Hands (D), Improved Unarmed (6+) mega-unarmed adept initiate or anything like that, but he's at least got world class unarmed skill. If you were to make him an adept, a few levels of Counterattack would be very much in keeping with his fighting style.

Now for another question: How would you make Jet? Obviously a decent cyberarm is a given, but would he have any other identifying features beyond high vehicle skills? I'm thinking some defensive bodyware (bone lacing and the like) and edges like Toughness, but other than that I'm drawing a blank.

I'd probably just end up making him a Rigger since he likes to work the Tactical Overwatch niche a lot.
maa01
QUOTE (Lucifer)
Now for another question: How would you make Jet?  Obviously a decent cyberarm is a given, but would he have any other identifying features beyond high vehicle skills?  I'm thinking some defensive bodyware (bone lacing and the like) and edges like Toughness, but other than that I'm drawing a blank.

I'd probably just end up making him a Rigger since he likes to work the Tactical Overwatch niche a lot.

He is also a mechanic, and he was quite skilled in classic detective work. Contacts in police, and many points in equipment (he owned the ship).
hyzmarca
QUOTE (PlatonicPimp)
hey, with the right cyber (Clean metabolism, Toxin filters), you may not even have to go to the bathroom. And if you do, it'll be potable drinking water. Yay!

I'd think that toxin filters would make your urine more potent, since they are probably located in the kidnies and probably dump the toxins into urine. It is simply the most efficient way for them to work.

Anyway, one would still have to go eventually. The bladder can only expand so far. Death from a burst bladder is both painful and embarasing.

also I doubt clean metabolism would make defication any less frequent. It doesn't lower lifestyle food costs. The 'ware that lets you eat tree bark and toilet paper might.

SL James
The Nephritic Filter is in the kidneys (obviously). The Toxin Extractor is in the liver. Neither really seems like devices which would make you go less frequently.
Toptomcat
...can we get off this topic, please?
toturi
Get the Sustenance power. 1 trip to the loo a day keeps the toilet assassin away.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (toturi)
Get the Sustenance power. 1 trip to the loo a day keeps the toilet assassin away.

Ruth coated pressure triggered bomb. If the assassin can avoid painting "Boom" on the toilet paper in a fit of whimsy it is a foolproof assasination method.
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