It's called "Happy Trails" just ahead of the History Lesson chapter.

I'm not sure it was explicitaly stated, but making SR4A was also a legal thing. Now, Catalyst published that book, so they can generate errata'd copies as much as they want, whereas before they couldn't.

I mean, SR4A is distinc from the rules change. SR4A is just a pretty aniversary version. The rule changes are errata and were going to happen whether there is a pretty aniversary book out or not. Or, rather, as above, SR4A is the excuse that allows catalyst to publish the errata.

Note, I may be wrong here, but I thought I had understood that from stuff Adam had been saying.

Yeah, except that's not my argument. If that was the argument making, I would be a huge retard wouldn't I?

My argument is: not buying the book accomplishes nothing, it doesn't "send a message" like the OP suggested they wanted to do. What I said about it being released as an errata is not a counter to anyone saying they don't want the book, it's a counter to the notion that not buying it would send Catalyst a message of some kind. They don't even expect all players to buy the book, because it is simply another printing which incorporates errata plus extensive reformatting. They are sending us the message: "hey guys, the new printing is really cool, buy it if you want, but if not, that's cool too." The fact that they're releasing the changes in an errata shows that they fully expect plenty of people not to buy it, further reinforcing how not buying it would fail to send them a message of any kind. Next time, you should consider asking for clarification rather than assuming I'm just a big retard. I'd like to think I extend people the same courtesy.

Though apparently, they do listen. http://www.shadowrun4.com/wordpress/2009/0...anges-document/ So bitching on dumpshock probably isn't as futile as I made it sound in my previous post, especially if you do it as long and as loud as people have been doing about SR4A. Which can only be a strike in Catalyst's favor, they're willing to admit their mistakes and acknowledge dissent, even if they don't agree with everything people say on the boards

You're completely wrong.

CGL is a company, and companies exist to make money. If SR4.5 doesn't make money, that *will* send a message to the folks there. Right now, SR4 core books are apparently selling well. This is an experiment with the core book, to see if a new model will sell better.

If SR4.5 flops, I doubt the rules changes will be blamed, unfortunately. I think instead we'll see stripped-down books with less fluff and a lower price point.

Of course not, the rules changes would have been deliberate and someone must have sold it to the upper management and some big money would have signed off on it. Blaming the rules changes means accepting responsibility for screwing up on purpose.

I was not suggesting that the book would succeed if lots and lots of people didn't buy it. Rather I was suggesting that perhaps a few dozen dumpshockers are truly outraged about SR4A, and these are the same people who hate everything about SR4, and despite their years of forum-based guerilla warfare, every printing of the core book has sold out so far. That is, I suggest that the number of people who might vote with their wallets on the basis of this forum is infinitesimal compared to the larger SR4 audience, and that a handful of people from Dumpshock refusing to buy the new book will not make it into a failure. Thus, again, no message is likely to be sent if a few people here don't buy it. I was most certainly not making the retarded argument that it wouldn't matter if nobody at all bought it.

I guess I'm confusing people with two sides to my argument, which conflict a bit. So I offer a refinement: they probably do expect people to buy the new book, but not because of the rules changes, those are available for free. They expect us to buy it because it has a master index and they fixed all kinds of fucked up formatting in the original edition, and it's just a nicer product to use. And again, there aren't enough people shrieking on dumpshock to really make the difference of success or failure.



I really don't think your scenario of the book flopping is plausible. They managed to cram a whole new edition down the throats of every dissenter on Dumpshock, and it's been doing quite well. I even heard from a dev once that they believed there was an active campaign by a certain group to try and cause SR4 to fail. And look where we are, shiny new 20th anniversary edition. Shadowrun is a franchise, and it will take a lot more than controversy over rules tweaks to make it "flop." If D&D can stop being a PnP game and become a non-digital version of WoW without failing utterly, then Shadowrun can survive what are, in the long run, a short list of minor tweaks to game mechanics.

Whoa a tiny little 4 year old echo of an angry pipe dream!



WTF? That's crazy.

Well I suppose you could view what White Knight did as taking a crack at trying to get SR4, as it is, scuttled before going to press. Actually, come to think of it, that was his stated purpose? Do you think they were referring to him, Motorfirebox, and company? Or someone else?

At least what Kage tried doing was sort of positive in going out and putting together an alternative addressing [some of] SR3's issues. Sure it's something that is likely to all come together some time after people start sprouting Orc tusks (not long now! ) and with a girth that makes HERO look like $2 comic book. But in my opinion that is a bit more positive response.

The errata document is now out. The vast majority of changes are positive ones and a couple of the more controversial issues have now either been changed again or made into optional rules. The assumption the OP makes that they are outraged about all the errata is a hard one to swallow. Is adding a capacity rating for Goggles so traumatic? Is a clarification of how Mana barriers affect targeting of non-living targets so very awful?

If the OP doesn't like the book then the OP shouldn't buy it. But it's not going to show up as any sort of protest. Probably the majority of people who buy it wont have an in-depth knowledge of the rules changes. And plenty of people do care about presentation and great artwork. Put the two editions next to each other and the difference is going to leap out at you.

It's also pretty nasty to complain about "getting someone who knows how to lay out a book." Does that poster want to site some actual examples of what is so very flawed? I've done some layout work myself and the book looks great to me.

There's over a thousand registered members on Dumpshock, most of whom comprise the perfect target audience for SR4.5. I don't know how large the SR4.5 print run is going to be, but losing a thousand sales is going to hurt.

Didn't say it was. However, I do think they're relying on Dumpshockers, as die-hard Shadowrun fans, saying: "Ooh, shiny!" and scoring a thousand easy sales.

Of course there are 100% shrieking mad as hell, right? Or is it more like 10%, if that? For SR4 all of Dumpshock was a rolling, boiling pot of angst about that change. It was going to be Shadowrun's death, Fanpro's death!** To the point that the admins roped off corners. Roughly 25% of weekly visitors that logged into their account and ventured into SR4 corner to cast a vote in polls (it was like a couple hundred or so) were assured it was the doom of SR. I don't mean the worried fence sitters. These were the people that they just weren't going to take it up, ever.

Now how'd that go? Besides, you know, a slice of the hard core doomsayers sucking it up and getting it anyway?

So lets compare the boards. Sure there is your grumpy calls of SR4.5 (!), barely background noise even if we just focus on your posting history alone , and some sporadic hand wringing. I heard there was about a solid week's worth of WTF explosion? And now, that hard product is out? Meh, an occasional thread like this one. Comparatively this is a nice room temperature jug of water. In all about right for making a little Koolaid.

Would you like one ice cube or two in your glass?


** Turns out that Fanpro did go teats up but that had to do with the so long running financial problems with the Germany. If anything SR4 was a bright spot.

Sure, and I think a lot of dumpshockers will buy it, and many will pitch a big hissy fit and still buy it, and a few won't buy it at all. I don't think their business model depends on all 1000 of us to buy every product.

After having looked over the complete errata sheet the main issues I had with the edition have been mitigated (direct combat spell drain is optional, the OR thresholds reduced, increased attribute cost in karma offset by increased karma awards) I can say that, yes, I will be telling our Treasurer that this book is worth buying.

There were many many things I'd liked about the new "edition" but stacked up didn't equal the cost of the things I didn't like (I of course, still think that rocket scatter is ridiculous), but with the final changes things are looking far more positive than before.

I'd debate how "nasty" it is—snide perhaps—but sure, I'll give you the example that lept off the page(s) at me without even looking for it, and this was on my initial browse through.

The pages in question are 190-191 in the Awakened World section. The bottom section of the right column has the heading "The Astral World" above the enchanting table. No additional text, certainly no text that actually belongs to the Astral World section. So why is it here, instead of at the top of the following page, heading up the new section like it should?

Is there not enough space on 191? Let's check...

Hmm, looking at the bottom of the left column on on 191, there seems to be a three line white space sitting there. That's plenty of space to bring the heading for "The Astral World" over onto the same page as the actual text concerning the Astral World. Compare the heading as it is currently to the text in the opposite column to it on 190 and you'll see that the heading and its leading are easily under three text lines of space.

What does moving it change? Well, it makes the Astral World section look better and eliminates the weirdness of a non-related header sitting smack dab on top of a chart from the previous section. It gives some justification for splitting the paragraph that begins "Like physical perception...", which is better than the current state where a three line orphan section is moved to the next column to leave space for...a three line white space. It also allows the Enchanting Table to be moved up bit so that its bottom edge is no longer hanging lower than either the text on 190 or the Assensing Table on the opposing page, which would help unify the look of both pages.

So that's one easily fixable example. But that's certainly not the totality of changes that colud be made to the layout. I'd rather see more time spent on the actual typography—you know, that aspect of overall page design that when done well compliments the reading of text rather than distracts from it—than the shininess of the pages and how colorful they can be.

I've got you beat. I'm still gradually acquring 3rd edition books, AND I don't play or GM anymore.

EDIT: If I walked into a radioactive cloud and developed super powers, I'd seriously use my powers for good by creating an SR2 mod for Deus Ex and there'd be lots of neon and trenchcoats with big collars.

Assuming you are serious, I'm curious to what end you are doing this?

I'm not sure anyone is suggesting that the book *will* fail because they, personally, don't buy the book. What I do think people are saying is that since they dislike the book and can point to several reasons why they, and others, would dislike the changes that the book *might* not sell well. That and the fact that "voting with your wallet" is a basic tenant of our modern society. We may be alone in our opinion, and our "vote" will not change the outcome as we'd prefer. But that's sort of why we call it a "vote" and not an "order."

Also, I'd like to object to this claim that the "few dozen" dumpshockers that are outraged at the changes in SR4A are the same as the people that hate SR4. It seems to me that the "loudest" opponents to the new changes have come from people that are outspoken supporters of SR4 *and* Catalyst. Also, I'd further like to note that my "outrage" is not at the changes themselves, but the seemingly thoughtless manner in which some of them were made. The specific rules changes don't bother me as much as thinking that I'm going to pay someone for a poor product.

I haven't decided whether I'll buy SR4A. I will mostly likely wait to see what other things have been changed and how well they've been handled. Most people have mentioned a better layout and some other extra "fluff". As these are things that I'm interested in, I might very well buy the product if *that* work is worth the price.

I got into the game at 3rd ed (after brief exposure to 1st in my early teens), yet I now come pretty close to having every non-LE, English language book. Lots of us collect as well as (or instead of, or as a poor substitute for) play.

Oh, it's nothing operatic or dramatic. I just got busy with a full time job and other activities, and I don't have the time anymore, and the old group I'd played 3rd ed. with for years on IRC dissolved a number of years ago. It's just a time and place thing. I probably wouldn't be able to take up RPGs again since you need a lot of things to come together to be able to play them.

Heck, I remember I'd been interested in playing Shadowrun back in middle school, when I realized that Shadowrun had the most culturally authentic 80s American orientalism I'd ever seen, but didn't have the chance for years. Then in 9th or 10th grade I finally got one friend to GM several sessions. Didn't really get the chance to actually play it regularly until college and grad school at which point I played every week for many years. Now that I think about it, it really just requires years of waiting for the chance to be able to play a good paper and pencil RPG, so you need patience and dedication on some level.

Honestly? I'm kinda in this boat as well. The drain change to optional was a great thing. In fact, that was something that I was all for...I'm all about optional rules. (Ok, yes, technically, ALL rules are optional. I know that. But sometimes just seeing other options that were tested already printed out is a big help, since sometimes houserules can break other things down the line they were not intended to.) Since my big concern was raising the Attribute costs and not lowering the skills, I felt that there was indeed a boat missed here in wanting to make skills look better. But then Karma awards were basically doubled...so it sorta...well, ok, didn't change much at all, kinda, in the long run. If I have to pay 15 points to raise my attribute to 5, or 10 points to raise my skill to 5, under the old system, its cheaper for the skill but the Attribute has more stuff linked, but I'm earning, say, 4-5 Karma per week. Now, I earn 9-10 Karma per week, but it costs 25 to raise the attribute but still 10 for the skill. Old system-it would take 3-4 weeks to raise the attribute. New system at 9-10 per week, it takes....3 weeks to raise the Attribute. I had to rub my eyes, but generally, it almost takes less time to raise the Attribute now. I concede my arguement that it was a bad change, since...jeeze, it almost works out BETTER now. But I think I can see the ''catch'', that since you are sitting on much more Karma, the skills look...kinda better to purchase, since one might think ''whoa! after 2 weeks, I can buy 2 3's to 4s, and a whole new skill at 1!'' or something of that matter.

It's one of those rules that looking at it piece by piece looks pretty bad, IMO, but all together(including the much higher Karma awards), isn't that bad. I would still end up giving 950-1000 Karma for the karmagen to keep the power level the way we like it with the x5 costs, but it's not as bad as I thought it would be(remember we play very sporadically and thus don't have fast advancement to begin with.)

I always gave my thumbs up for lower Adept power costs, even though I felt that the cost for Attributes(and what I used) were best at .5/1. At least having them .75/1.5 is a bit better.

All of THAT being said, actually buying the book is something I'm not sure I need to do. My resources are a bit limited, and while the art, from the bit I saw, looks very nice, I do have to put priorities in, and simply sticking with the old edition(or even deciding to try errata later), is in my best interest at the moment. But the fact that they actually listened to some of the suggestions(making the Drain rule optional, increasing Karma to offset higher Attributes, and lowering the OR threshold), makes me give a thumbs up for that.

The university pays for all of my group's gaming materials.

Ah, the pleasures of being a college organization.

(Though our budget was cut in half this year due to them remodeling the athletic building, but then, they took the money out of ALL clubs and organizations, so at least it was fair)

Well, I have another gaming addiction in videogames. That, and the fact that we don't play super-often at the table puts the books, while I like them, a bit lower on the list.

Though damn, getting stuff paid for via university sounds like a sweet deal.

The list of stuff he have is huge.
SR 3 and 4
D&D 3.5 and 4
Rifts
WoD: Mage/Werewolf/Vampire
Scion (Hero, Demigod, and God)
a whole bookshelf of board games:
Twilight Imperium
Race for the Galaxy
Power Grid
Tigris and Euphrates
Ticket to Ride
Settlers of Catan (and all expansions)
Arkham Horror (and nearly all expansions)
and a ton of anime DVDs.
And some stuff I'm forgetting

I think there's a flaw in the basic outlook that many have voiced here - the assumption seems to be that SR4A is basically a money grab, introducing enough changes to make everyone already owning SR4 buy the core book again (à la D&D 3.5).
I see this new version of SR mainly as a means to recruit new players, people who didn't own SR4 before! Hence the new artwork and layout to bring the game up to current full-color standard, new fluff and reworked chapters. Everybody already owning older prints can simply use the released errata (BTW, where are we now in errata numbers - 1.9, 1.10 or 2.0?).

I know that I will buy SR4A - in its German translation. Because this will be the first new translation and release of the core book by Pegasus. All German SR4s currently circulating are from FanPro's 2005 and 2006 printings and are way outdated errata-wise...

Well, FanPro did as FASA had done before - stop when you're still making money. But unlike FASA FanPro is still active (in Germany, that is) publishing novels, not games.
And they still make money from the DSA license given to Ulisses just like FASA still makes money from Redbrick's Earthdawn license.

A simple last second flow error, easily created by making a correction on a previous page, and that didn't get caught in the original PDF. It's fixed in the latest PDF and in the print version.

This confused me for a moment, but fortunately I still had the non-updated version of the PDF as well. This has been fixed in the latest version. The book looks great to me and a huge improvement on the previous one which I previously thought looked nice until SR4A came out and re-calibrated my aesthetics.

K.

Well, just to be sure everyone is clear, they did fix most of the issues that people had a problem with. So now, there's not much excuse for anyone not to buy the book -- it fixes a lot of problems, it has vastly superior layout compared to the original core book release, and it has a master index. Fluff and art are in there too, but I would recommend it simply because it is quite a bit less painful to use, while still being similar enough that you won't have to re-learn a new book.

Well, I am not exactly "outspoken", but I have been playing SR since second edition, and Battletech for a long time. I think that, rules wise, SR4 is the most accessible to a new player. I still think it has area for improvement(Show me a perfect game system, though, and, with a mirror, I shall show you a delusional individual), but it is still better then SR3.
And, here is the thing: I have it on pre-order. And I am GLAD I do. I am looking forward to having it in my hands.

Now, then, as for the stories added: They help make Shadowrun more accessible to new players. They are stories from the past(Fastjack verses the Jormungar Worm Virus, the story of how Picador got revenge for Matador's death) and stories from today(most of them) that help set the mood for the world, show you the setting in ways that, well, honestly, I had almost forgotten about. They even have one with a "Pink Mohawk" working with "Black Trenchcoats"




Shoot....I am still trying to track some down for their fluff material...

Well for me if I don't buy SR4A then there will be even more holes in my all things SR collection (darn old gaming magazines that keep showing up with shadowrun stuff)

Wow. Just bought SR4A. Worth every penny. Period. This book is a thing of beauty. There are SO many little added details that add so much, it's amazing.

Yeah, but if all that's good about SR4.5 is that it's shiny, that's really not much of a selling point.

BUT... sometimes shiny is all you need...

It's shiny, better organized (usefull for day-to-day usage) and full of extra fluff.

The shiny and fluff makes me happy, which is reason enough to buy a book. The better organization (reformating of text as well as addition of tables and such) makes it a worthwhile long term purchase.

I had my doubts, but that's how I'm calling it.

I was sold on the organizational aspects alone... Three cheers for the combined index of 4e Books... It is about time...

In a pdf, I like quick organization. Extra art and fluff make it harder to get to the rules I'm looking for. And while things look very nice on screen, I exclusively use printed-out pdfs. The art doesn't look as good in B&W, so it's somewhat wasted on me.

Looks cool, I'll admit, but I don't see shelling out up to $65 for it.

I tend to prefer hard copy, but there are inded times that PDF's come in very useful... And yes, the cost is relatively high, but I am willing to pay a little more for exceptional output, and the new book layout is indeed exceptional in my opinion (far better than some others that I could name that cost as much or more)...

...






I think your off about 40$ for your price quote.



----------------
Now playing: Disturbed - Haunted
via FoxyTunes

I think that he meant shelling out $65.00 for a Printed Book (Limited Print Price if I remember correctly)...

Though I would say that unless he is printing his PDF on his own print system (and maybe even if he is) that a Printed PDF can cost a bundle in and of itself (over the cost of the Original PDF)

Correct


All the Dumpshock ToS will allow me to say is that it all depends. Having a brother in law who works at Office Max helps, though.

Hey, it could be worse...

At least we can still buy PDF's of our books.

Not to hijack but seriously Wizards... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?

That must indeed be nice...

Definitely some bad behavior on WOTC's part... Fortunately I no longer support that company in any way, shape, or form...

I'd love to have the new SR4A, but I'm flat broke , and not nearly talented enough to deck myself a better lifestyle. So, I'll have to be content with the latest errata for now and pick up SR4A when I'm gainfully re-employed.

So Catalyst devs, if the economy was better, your pre-order numbers would be +1.

I do appreciate the Matrix rules rewrites as those were my major beef with the SR4 BBB that Fanpro produced. Made things much clearer to me (and it's nice to see that the optional Attributes rules from Unwired were included [and explained!]).

I haven't read through much else but the art is really, really nice. I'm moving away from print anyway so I don't mind $25 for a PDF that will be auto-updated to include errata. My goal is to have all of my Shadowrun materials on an eBook Reader that I can carry around with me in a small case. Gosh, that will be so nice and convenient. I worry about shoulder dislocation when I travel with all of my books.

We held off on any of our team getting 4th Ed. amd have not bought any of the suppliments. We are just playing SR3 with the 4th ed spirits and hacking rules. Now, it's already ed 4.5 and more money. Nope. I have small children and they need the money more than the corp who are already effectively putting out rules 5th ed.

The change in rules, if you do not buy along with them means you can answer fewer threads here about rules since you cannot answer about them.

Ok, I get that you don't want to spend money buying a whole new edition's books, but it sounds like you're actually attacking the company for making new products. If you play 3rd, and aren't even interested in 4th, why even care about SR4A? All this amounts to is a troll, something that might provoke one of SR4A's defenders with no possibility of constructively adding to the discussion.

I wouldn't call 3 pages of errata a brand new edition. The SR3 Core rulebook had 9 pages of errata

All I know is that in both the first and second copies of SR4 I bought (someone stole the first one), there are typos galore - such as half the weapons in the BBB being listed as "machine pistols".

I'd be a lot more pissed about this were it not for the fact that Catalyst inherited a severely flawed product, and now have to sell it. If I've read this thread properly, they're releasing the updated rules as errata for SR4 - sure, it's not convenient, but it's free! They could have pulled a Hasbro (Wizards' parent company) and released Shadowrun 4.5, changing the rules just enough that none of the nifty new stuff out there will work with the old rules and requiring another $35 for a copy.

Also, before everyone starts yammering about illegal PDFs, I might point out that the only reason my GM can run a game is because the players (other than myself, all new) can read the rules without spending a lump of cash; if the game goes well for a month or two, the other players will likely pick a copy for themselves. There's enough rules in the add-on sourcebooks that anyone using them regularly will buy a copy of them, too - something I suspect was deliberate.

This is what the thread is about: if there's any drawbacks to not getting SR4.5 As for trolling, usually it's the one accusing people of trolling that's the guilty party.


The Dumpshock ToS forbids us from discussing piracy in a positive manner. That being said, you do realize there were pirate copies of SR4.5 out within *hours* of the release?

I'm not surprised in the least.

(Spore was pirated two days before it was released; conversely it took a week before World of Goo was pirated).