hi hi

I guess I was thinking about the relationship between certain toxins and metabolism. Fast metabolism is generally considered a sign of good health but can be detrimental in some cases because it speeds up the reaction to certain toxins.

I still think the transformation probabilities should be more smoothly distributed between average joe and hulking troll, but I am once again at a loss for how to do so.

(The above rule was inspired in part by ramming damage, where the squared/cubed, strength/mass relationship makes the rule make perfect sense)

Body is not an indicator of Metabolism, it is an Indicator of Health... I have seen chronically unhealthy people with tremendous metabolisms... and Vice Versa...

But yes, it is a quandry...

Particularly as Body is the stat used to resist disease.

By going with Bod/2 + X you ensure that the disease is fatal to everyone.

i was talking about certain ghouls not being infective. . but i had thought it the other way around, only BORN GHOULS could infect other people, not ghouls made by infecting other people . . and i thought i had made the bit about certain ghouls not being infective up from my very own mind . . get out of my mind ._.

No Doubt...

For the "fix" I'd suggest, the biggest single issue would be changing it from Contact to Injection. Injection would require effort on the part of the Ghoul in question to infect someone -- a bite, a nail-gauge, classic feral-Ghoul-type melee attacks. Broken skin in some way, and then some contact of some sort. All the old favorite zombie/werewolf/vampire sort of stuff. Contact is just...too easy. Too accidental, too hard to not spread the disease. As it's written, the well-nigh-impossible-to-resist disease itself makes such casual infection just plain ridiculous, unless you guys are trying to change the game to ZombieRun by 2075 (or, instead, to get Ghouls wiped out by a collective effort on behalf of every other sentient creature on the planet, eradicated so that the rest of metahumanity might live). If a Ghoul had to work at infecting someone, be obvious about it, and start gnawing and slashing at you instead of accidentally doing so by shaking your hand, then that level of contagion (and/or violent paranoia) wouldn't necessarily have to exist.

That'd fix it so that a feral Ghoul running around chewing on people = fair game, blow it away the same way you would a rabid dog. A "normal" Ghoul just walking down the street and saying hello, holding the door open or handing you a credstick = not as big a deal. Everyone's happy.

Dropping the power by about half would be my second fix, but really the Contact/Injection thing would fix MOST of the problem. The ridiculous numbers for it are secondary to the ridiculous infection method.


I think you have it backwards. I'm pretty sure that born Ghouls can't infect people, and infected Ghouls can/do.

i guess it all depends on what one reads into "will not longer accumulate".

thing is that while the text reads as if one resets the power to the number stated in the book, and then add the leftover from the previous test, i think its more correct to read it as keeping the reminder of the previous test, and then adding the stated power, this repeated the number of times specified. After that its a matter of fighting of the reminder, with as many tests as it may take.

so its a case of first test: 0+8, second test: reminder+8, repeat 8 more times, then roll as needed to bring the reminder to zero.

funny thing is that the fluff of the disease seems to indicate that the victim needs at least a open sore on the surface touched to be infected. this contradicts the definition of contact in both SR4 and augmentation that basically say that skin contact is needed (SR4 covering gas or fluid toxins, augmentation mostly aura contact illnesses).

Runners Companion, pg. 77:



So, once you've had children, and those children have children, while they are ghouls, they are not contagious. So when you see a ghoul chatting up her coworker at S-K, you might want to consider: was she born that way (and therefore is not contagious) or was she infected as an adult (and therefore may be contagious)?

While I accept that my suggestion is flawed, It is no more fatal then the disease as currently written. Trolls with a near maximum augmented body attribute (14-15) would have face a disease with a power of 8, which is where it currently stands. Everyone else would have an easier time with it.

But as I said, I already concede that there are flaws in my suggestion.

Edit: Are born ghouls immune to the disease?

Just consider what ammo to use!

You've forgotten that bed rest is considered treatment and gives you a benefit.

This is something you need to remember, given that you're relying on the stun track to overflow into physical. Seriously like everyone in this thread has forgotten that. Why do you persist in forgetting that? How else do people recover stun boxes in your game?

What the hell?

You guys are running around saying POWER 2 FLU IS DEADLY OMGOMGOMG, but you're not doing the maths right. Power 6 is just shy of lethal on average, with only bed rest if it does stun damage. Flu 2 is a wet week.

No, I was ignoring damage until Power exceeded 11.

At which point it doesn't matter how quickly you recover your stun track, you are taking Physical Damage every 12 hours. First one box, then two, then three, etc, etc, etc...

I'm pretty sure bedrest is medical treatment which adds to your resistance roll. I don't have my book infront of me - and that's what shaves it down to less than lethal

The adders that Augmentation permits for Disease Resistance Tests are Protective Systems, implants or medicines. Doesn't say anything about a bonus for 'bed rest'.

That would be Healing Tests you are thinking of.

edit

On checking I find that you don't get a bonus to Healing Tests for bed rest. If you ain't in bed resting you don't get Healing Tests at all.

1) Clear, concise definition in the rules of what constitutes contact for the HMHVV III, Kreiger Strain, in the rules for it, not the fluff. (Fluff gives what people think,
rules give the facts.)
2) There used to be a specific anti-viral for HMHVV III, Kreiger Strain. While I could, indeed, see that it is no longer as effective, bringing it back
with an effect like: Reduces the penetration of HMHVV by a random amount. To me, the high penetration is the biggest issue that effects the ability with treatment
to fight it off.
3) Allow Anti-virals to work, somewhat. Maybe treat them as half rating for HMHVV III Krieger Strain.
4) Tell what is and is not effected by Penetration, as, right now, the rules can be interpreted that everything you can do, including spells, is
subject to Penetration, or it could be interpreted that only medicines, and implants are subject to it.

I know it is too late to get these fixed before GenCon, but these can be put in an errata PDF, or even one of the e-books that are being worked on.

It doesn't affect implants, that's one thing that's clear - they are listed seperately from protective systems. Nanites are unaffected, as would be magic and qualities.
It does affect gear like chemsuits and medicine/vaccines.

Note: I'm not attacking the messenger, just the message.

That's really stupid. How does having a chemsuit (an impermeable barrier) on NOT provide protection while a filter in your kidneys does? If a chemsuit doesn't protect you, then neither do walls and windows between you and the ghoul, right? It spits on your windshield and you're at risk...

Never assume the physics of the game world work the same as in the real world.

OK, that came out a little more sanctimonous than my usual but I think you get the point.

Most important thing to change:
Change Contact to Injection, as that fits the existing fluff (the need for open wounds)

The Power could be reduced to 6, making it still likely that most infected will become ghouls but gives Luck more chance.

The Penetration should stay as it reflects that there is no known pharmaceutical against HMHVV III.

And while you are at it: clear up penetration rules, it is worded ATM not clearly enough what a protective system is, making different interpretations possible.

Imho it should affect anything that gives you additional dice to your disease test to bring it in line with armor penetration.

O Cells are a problem in this regard, as they work by reducing the power of the disease. Maybe they only work at half effect against HMHVV III?

I wholly agree with changing Contact to Injection, and this being the most important change.

Penetration is another thing that needs addressing. Does it nullify chemical protection? I can understand the rating, if it only affects additional dice in the Disease Resistance Test. Chemsuits should still provide protection, in my opinion.

First glance, I liked the idea of using the first resistance test to see if you get infected at all, but on second thought I think it might decrease the danger of infection too much. This thing is supposed to be deadly, after all. But as it stands, you either get O-cells or you turn ghoul. There should be another way to get rid of the infection. I hope you guys figure something out

Why? HMHVV III is a disease and as such can be detected and fought like any other disease.

I'm guessing it's because O-cells are not in line with the other pharmaceutical products. At least in my mind, the problem is not that it works, but that it's the *only* thing that works (and so well). I don't want to lose the only help available, but it is a bit asymmetrical.

Well... Immunization by Gene Therapy *might* also work by RAW, but it might go a bit against the fluff... there being no vaccine and all. 0.1 essence and 20 000 is not too bad, though O-cells are still a lot more desireable because they're universal.

Then again, from a role-playing perspective, I'd rather have something that helps me with HMHVV III specifically than turn impervious to all diseases.

O-Cells cost a pretty penny, and unless you have a nano-hive then they're going to degrade, and soon become worthless.

Chemsuit still works though, by preventing contact. If a ghoul bite hits you through the chemsuit..I pretty much think it made contact with you.

IMO: there are two problems here.

1. contact vector is just way too contagious. For the power, either make it a weak contact vector, or make it a strong injection vector. Of the two, strong injection is probably the best option.

I severely dislike all the fixes which treat 'contact' which are simply injection by any other name meaning that the difference between contact and injection is lost.


2. Disease mechanics are broken. Serious lack of playtesting on them. They accumulate too much power early on.

a. Change the way that the power accumulates in a disease w/ the thought of an AVERAGE 3 body... 1 hit sometimes two, more with medical attention. Best way, rather than automatic successes based on strength... change it so that the disease buys hits at 4:1 or rolls dice.

EG: Jimbo gets hit w/ a rating 5 orcish flu (orks are pig people!). He has a body of 3.
First test... he rolls 3 dice and gets 1 hit... power reduced to 4. Disease rolls 4 hits and gets 2 hits... going up to power 6.
Second test... he's feeling bad so gets some medical attention. Add 3 dice for doctoring and medical treatment.
He rolls well and disease goes down to rating 3, disease rolls itself back to 4.
third test... he's on the road to recovery and scores more successes easily than the disease the next day or three.

b. I'd cap drugs at rating 3 (unless it's a very specific treatment only suitable for a single disease).
c. I'd allow active medical treatment (as in supervised care in a hospital bed) to go higher to rating 6, but not stack.

If it is required to do at least 1 box of P damage after being reduced by my Chemical Protection-treated armor then it's probably balanced a bit better. If it can get by my suit doing just S damage - by squeezing my armor down under it's teeth and claws - then it still makes no sense.

I think the book is missing one specific paragraph we have for e.g. gases. That a simple chemical protection is penetrated sounds ok for me, but a chemical seal (the mentioned suit) should make infection impossible. So you could at least go hunting in the chemsuit. Covered with their blood and guts....yeah....boah, i need some sleep. Sorry.

Disease rules aren't broken so long as you keep the number of tests, or the power low. Malaria, a massive killer, is a Power 3 disease with Speed 3 Days(8 ). VITAS 3 is Power 6, Penetration -2 and does Stun Damage. It's meant to be pretty much impossible to deal with, and it is. Setting HMHVV at Power 8 or 13 is so clearly out of the normal league that it's not even funny. The fact that they have, by far, the highest Power ratings in the game is topped only by the fact that they have high penetration values, ridiculous failure conditions, and/or a huge number of tests.

It's like giving all the enemies in a 'run a Barret 121, or a Thunderstruck. You don't complain that these weapons are broken, you call your GM (or freelancer in this case) a dick. It's not the job of the rules to make it impossible to use them badly.

Disease is something that you want players to overcome, and it works like a god shooting you in the face repeatedly. If you don't keep these things in mind then you end up giving that god a Thunderstruck or an Autocannon. Which is what happened with HMHVV. Why blame rules which are perfectly servicable (at least when you undelete the section that allows you to double your Body by resting) when the person who broke them gets off scot-free?

By RAW HMHVV is so ridiculous that once you've been stung by it once you'll call any GM who actually uses the infection in play a total asshole for killing off your character (which is basically what it does, since you have to change your character so significantly that it might as well be a new character). This actually stops it ever seeing play, because the inevitable result of bringing it into play is that your players hate you. Ridiculous HMHVV stats actually stop HMHVV being used in game - which renders the existence of the stats utterly pointless (they're not going to be used).


By the way, the rules you suggest make any disease with a power over DP + (DP / 3) pretty much insurmountable. The existing disease rules at least posit an eventual end to most diseases. It isn't immediately obvious that this turning point exists so GMs are likely to exceed it accidentally, and it's completely different to every other set of rules in the game so they aren't going to have any applicable experience.

Secondly, the rules are different enough that it disrupts the conceptual simplicity and people are likely to get them wrong. Diseases as they currently exist work like getting shot in the face, or taking a lungful of Tear Gas. They're familiar, which is good.

There is a post by Franktrollman in another forum that he indeed for all day bedrest to:



and

Chemsuits are not impermeable - that would be HAZMAT suits, which do help against contact vector.

On the other hand, spending the essence and lots of money on an implant to help you against bad diseases, only to be told that those are actually the ones that ignore it would be even sillier.

Yay

The way the rules for disease work, making HMHVV-KS 'Power 4, Pen -3 or 4, Injection vector' still makes the virus very effective and likely to infect most 'normal' people who contract it. It will however allow some people to be lucky enough to not succumb to the disease and will allow medicine to have some minor effect. I'm all for the disease being highly infectious, but as it stands now it is just so far out there that nothing can stop it.

A couple of other things:
- Clarification on what is and is not effected by disease penetration is extremely highly needed. Right now, no one knows for sure exactly what is and is not effected by it.
- Consider adding the 'x2 body with bedrest' back in. If this is done, then moving HMHVV-KS back to penetration -6 (and possibly a bump of one or two in power) is possible.
- Since there are no rules for when you are actually infected with anything, it all comes down to GM fiat. Making the first test when exposed a test to see if you are infected with a disease or not is a workable solution.
- The whole disease section needs to be replaytested, clarified, expanded, and have some examples. As it stands right now, O-Cells and a nanohive are the only way to be sure.

Right now I'm tempted to ask a couple of my players to help my test out the diseases and a couple of the suggested changes, both on normal humans (Bod 3, with and without meds and bedrest) and people with higher stats/access to more powerful treatments.

Strongly disagree. All I do is suggest change the disease test into an extended opposed test.

No diseases to date w/ a power greater than 8. That means bod 3 + 6 top of the line medcare... bigger pool.


My biggest issue w/ the rules right now... is that the basic flu w/ a power of 3 is deadly... because it effectively rolls *9* dice vs the patients body. Something only a small section of the really unlucky can't get rid of w/o any medicine at all. The test ALREADY is an opposed extended test, but the bug simply buys all it's hits at 1:1!

Also you forget that a player has the abliity to spend edge (which is huge on the first test).

I like the bedrest suggestion as well for supervised medical care doubling body.


Going another route... you could consider the disease test a 'combat' of sorts. EG: my body attacks the disease it takes damage... the disease attacks my body I take damage. Complete w/ the -1 per 3 boxes damage pool.


In any case, my biggest problem w/ the RAW right now is assured hits at 1:1 is way too powerfull and turns what should be stupidly minor annoyance infections like the common cold into major life threatening events. When really they should just be a minor annoyance, producing minor effects similar to having a mild allergy penalty during a run.


Unfortunately, we may need some troll & ork specific strains to get past their exceptionally large body pools. (doo whatevers and such..)
But the elegant thing there is those versions don't target other metas w/o ludicrous body scores! So you can realistically create a power 12 or 14 disease like that for those strains.

You actually read the HMHVV rules?