So, I just add the cost of the focus (Force x ¥10,000) to the cost of the melee weapon? Any melee weapon?

Yes... Why Not?

Keep the Faith

If this is during play and not chargen it's easier to just make it yourself, you can default on Enchanting, the threshold is 16 and the interval only a day. The formula, a few cheap reagents and a little downtime later you have your weapon for a fraction of the cost.

Except, if you are defaulting, and your dice pool is reducing, you will never actually manage to make a focus in game...

Keep the Faith

Reducing skill dice for extended tests is just an optional rule for some tests. Because even in the examples in the books they've got people with low dice pools making these things. In the Enchanting section of Street Magic I believe the example had a character with 6 dice pool making a Force 5 Foci (-5 for the force +5 from her reagents so +0 net modifier), and hitting that 16 threshold would be nearly impossible with a reducing pool.

Some of the high threshold tasks would be outright pointless, like Ally Formulas at Force x5, even with 12 dice you're not going to pull off a threshold of 25, and considering the alternative is a metaplanar quest where you'll actually earn karma, well...

Even if you play with them for most extended tests I think for crafting you should forgo reducing the dice pool since having a small pool and taking many rolls increases the chances of a glitch dramatically, which is all the balancing factor you really need. Plus it adds a nice feel to a game to have characters actually writing their spells, coding their software, modifying their gear and so on during downtime rather than just buying it all out of a mail order catalog or having the Face run around town buying things up.

I don't think you can default on Enchanting? At least, it seems you can't according to SR4A.

There appears to be some irregularity there, in the front of the SKills chapter where all the skills are listed niehter Arcana nor Enchanting are italicized, indicating they can be defaulted upon. However later in the chapter in their individual categories both say "No" under Default. Street Magic also has them as "No" for defaulting so I guess that should be how it's handled?

Also, the skills list has Enchanting as a Logic-based skill, while the actual description puts it as Enchanting(Magic).

It does seem like they meant for all "Magic Active Skills" to be non-defaultable...

Even a monowhip with personalized grip and ruthenium coating, yes.
(although the mods add to the melee weapon cost as normal)

Whats the point of a Ruthenium coating on a item which is smaller then a pistol?

So the cops don't see it when you're in a Chameleon Suit?

:-)

Ahh right well I can see your point but I would say its a unnneeded expense.

The whips handle is same size/smaller then a pistol and as such shouldnt effect the suits benefits. From what I remember in Arsenal the coating is needed form anything bigger then a pistol so as not to mess up a suit.

Just to satisfy my pedant chip, you actually could reasonably expect to achieve 25 with a reducing DP of 12.

12+11+10+...+1 = 78 => 26 hits expected

Glitches make the overall probability less than 50% but it would still be quite doable.


The formula for the total number of dice available in a reducing extended test is

(n/2)(n+1)

where n is the starting size of the dice pool.

Don't forget Edge. Enchanting is serious business, it's definitely worth spending Edge on it.

The rules never tell you that you have to pay the base cost of the weapon to my knowledge. It's not an accessory. It's not a mod. It's a unique item all its own with its own price tag... one so high that it renders the base cost of a normal melee weapon moot anyway.

Everyone plays things different I guess...

AS for the Reducing Dice Pols... I have found that 12 Dice will generally allow you do do most things, even with a reducing Dice Pool... Edge expenditures (as well as superior Tools, and other possible bonuses to the Rolls indicated) will generally insure the completeion of said rolls... I have Coded Software (some at ratings above 6), Crafted Spells, Crafted Foci (upt to Rating 5), and created customized Hardware, all with reducing Dice Pools, and Often with less than 12 Base Dice, and have still succeeded... So your assumption that you will always fail is erroneous. My guess is that you have not been inclined to test this theory... I will admit, I was skeptical at first, but it has worked out wonderfully, and it provides a serious impetus to increase your skills if you are wanting to do the more powerful things, as you should... No one expects you to craft a Spell with a Skill of 1 and an Attribute of 3... it just isn't going to happen unless you are receiving some help somewhere...

Keep the Faith

It isn't going to happen with a skill of 1 and an Attribute of 3 because you have a very high chance of rolling a glitch.

I really like the rules entry on this topic since it echos how I feel: you should assume that a player will succeed if given enough time unless there's a story based element that should prevent that, and then choose to either limit the intervals or reduce the dice pool to make it a question.



It ultimately comes down to GM discretion but I'd rather just uncapped rolling for character appropriate tasks rather than trying to weasel as many bonuses as possible out of it, "So I mod my motorcycle during the down time and I have an AR display up of the instructions, my garage should count as a superior workshop, uh, all my tools are laid out in ergonomic and efficient ways, I arrange the lighting to better illuminate my work and, umm, I arrange myself and the motorcycle so the feng shui of the room is excellent".

I agree for the "more powerful things" you should be a specialist with 6 ranks in that crafting skill. But, for the enchanting example, that's things like unique enchantments and for technical skills anytime you try to build something expensive from it's component parts for the 50% price discount. Anyway regarding what you "should" be able to do realistically, if you've got 6-7 in Logic dice then you're in the genius levels and should be able to "slow and steady" your way through most anything. You'd be so smart you'd independently derive solutions that a more skilled craftsman is taught, it just slows you down

I have known several geniuses personally, and within their own field, they are indeed... Geniuses... Oftentimes, though, when they were out of their element, they were more clueless than those who were considered less intelligent than they were... I know the game does not quite work like that, but it is something to remember...

As for the rules (optional though they are), if it is something that you eventually will succeed at (like your example of working on a car), yes, you will probably, eventually, complete the work (So we do not even roll). However, whenever we are actually rolling such things, it is generally because speed matters, and as such, the reducing dice pool works wonders. I am a big fan of it now, personally, as it removes "Eventually" from the equation...

But, it is definitely a preference...

Yea if time matters than by all means, have at it. Given the long intervals of most of these tests it just seems like a productive use of downtime, almost like a hobby. A three month interval to write a combat spell formula is pretty crazy, especially when they're relatively quite cheap, but if it's not a something you need anytime soon it's just handy to roll whenever the time comes up. For example writing a thesis as an ordeal for initiation, given the karma cost of initiation you may not care how long it takes since you want to get X spells first or whatever and it'll be a while before you need it.

Indeed...

Keep the Faith

It also makes the item harder to find.

the simple way to resolve this is to ask the question:

how would you feel about an ares thunderstruck enchanted as a rating 1 counterspelling focus? should it cost 5,000 nuyen and have an availability of 4R, or should it cost as much as the combined cost of the two and have the availability of the higher of the two? after all, you can select *anything* to be the telesma, so heck, as long as i'm gonna abuse the rules, i'll take a GMC banshee for 5,000 nuyen as well.


if you're dealing with a telesma that actually has a largely insignificant cost, not a problem really. a knife isn't expensive enough to worry about as a general rule. but if someone is buying a monofilament whip weapon focus, for example, you should definitely increase the cost appropriately. heck, i'd increase the cost in most cases; the person making the focus has to buy the telesma to enchant, and that cost should realistically be passed on to the customer.

for most other focus costs, however, you should be fine. after all, that wood ring you use as a sustaining focus may technically be worth another nuyen or two, but it's a sufficiently minor cost that it's basically negligible.

Irrelevant. You're not gaining the Ares Thunderstruck and a focus, you're getting a focus that just happens to look like an Ares Thunderstruck. They're completely separate things. If you want a Counterspelling Focus that also works as a Thunderstruck, you buy both. Weapon Foci are completely different; the weapon is the focus. You can't have a Weapon Focus that isn't the weapon, and you can't use them separately.

Well, can't your gun be a Club focus? In any case, there's no good reason not to pay for the telesma, *whatever* it is. If it's unicorn bone, you have to get ahold of it somehow.

so i get an ares thunderstruck enchanted to bash things over the head with. same situation.

you can choose whatever telesma you want for any kind of focus. if you choose an ares thunderstruck, it doesn't just look like an ares thunderstruck, it IS an ares thunderstruck. if you choose a maxed-out commlink, it doesn't *look* like a maxed-out commlink, it IS a maxed-out commlink.

you can enchant anything you wish to be a focus, you just need to have the formula for that form of focus.

You're missing the point.

You're getting what you pay for. You pay for a counterspelling focus, that's all you get. A counterspelling focus. It doesn't matter if it looks like an Ares Thunderstruck or a Citymaster. It's still just a counterspelling focus. If you also want it to have the abilities of an Ares Thunderstruck or a Citymaster, you have to buy them separately.

Weapon foci are completely different. They're one in the same. You don't have a Dagger with a Weapon Focus, or a Monofilament Whip with a Weapon Focus... you have a Dagger Weapon Focus or a Monofilament Weapon Focus. The focus is the weapon. It's not an aesthetic choice. It's completely and wholly unique to Weapon Foci. Other foci don't share that characteristic.

And it follows the same logic, too. Want your Weapon Focus (Improvised Club) to look like an Ares Thunderstruck? Fine. Done. But if you actually want to shoot things with it, too, that's another story completely.

The problem with buying a plain-jane Weapon Focus is that it doesn't, by itself, have the necessary stats to work within the melee combat system. Great! It adds to melee attack rolls while active. Now what is its reach, damage, AP, and concealability?

No. If you want a weapon focus, you pretty much have to take an existing weapon(at the right price), and turn it into a weapon focus.

You -could- have a Gun be a weapon focus. But it wouldn't apply while shooting, because shooting is not a melee attack. You could club a spirit with it, though. ((a better use would be a sustaining focus, paired with the enhance aim spell))

Nope, that's still stupid. There'd be no situation where your weapon focus 'looks like Citymaster'. You start with a base item, and focus-ize it.

Well, yeah. You have to take a base item, then enchant it into a focus. You can Enchant anything you can make a Formula for, per street magic's rules. What its made out of only gives you a dice pool penalty.

If you want your weapon focus to look like a city master, you have a few options.
It can either 'look like a city master', basically a model of one, made out of paper mache or whatever. But its not a city master. YOu don't get the city master for free with the focus.
Or it can actually BE a city master. (at the appropriate cost).



....

You know, a force 1 Vehicle(of whatever sort) Weapon Focus would be amazing to Ram dumb spirits over. I mean, they can only move out of the way if they win initiative.

Only if you can pick it up and club them.

No, whether or not you have to club someone with it is far less important.

That its dual natured, and active on the astral plane (well, with a simple action to activate the focus), is far more important.

What? You're driving. You're in physical contact with your focus, so its able to be activated, and will be deactivated if you let go. We don't care that it adds a dice pool to melee mechanics. We don't even care that "weapon foci are effective against astral forms, and continue to add their force in dice against such enemies." We don't care how much dice we get, because melee dice don't matter when you're making a Ramming test.

What we DO care about...... is being able to take our car with us while astrally projecting. We DO care that "The damage of the weapon is the same on the astral plan as it is on the physical world." And the ramming damage is based on the Speed of the vehicle.

So remember, folks. The next time your players trigger an alarm at a corporate building...
....have the responding wagemage show up in an astral citymaster, and start running the teams spirits over.

Nope, because there's no rule for it unless it's a weapon attack.

Not true. Put your money where your mouth is. Prove it.

On the contrary, maybe I'm just mistaken. Feel free to show me the rules for astral vehicle weapon focus ramming.

As per the Foci section, under Activation: "When activated, foci have an astral form."

This is a rule for all foci, not just weapon foci. Whether its a melee attack is irrelevant. The fact that it has an astral form, and can interact with other astral forms means that it can ram them.

Just because a weapon focus -also- adds bonus dice to melee attack, does not mean that is the only thing you can use them for. I'm not saying you get bonus dice or anything for the ramming test.

Just that the possibility of moving one astral thing very fast into another is now possible.

And, uh, yeah, there are rules for it. There -are- rules for Ramming pedestrians. You should look them up before you go saying its not possible.

Per 4a: 'if a driver wants to ram something(or someone) with the vehicle, treat it as a melee attack)'
So I guess you do get bonus dice for your astral bumper. Sorry.
Which is ace, because now your astral bumper can potentailly benefit from Energy aura. So its an AP-half ghost-bumper.

You realize that your argument is pretty stupid whether you pay for the item or not, right? That according to what you and others are saying, having an Ares Thunderstruck or a Citymaster as a focus (any kind of focus, apparently) means you can take it with you when you project and use it fully, whether you paid an extra cost or not.

Just wanted to make sure you realized that little tidbit.

There are rules for ramming in real space. I never said it wasn't possible to ram in real space. You're inventing the rule that astral forms can ram each other. After all, your movement rate in astral is hugely fast. You might as well just have kamikaze running attacks. The fact that this doesn't (and can't) happen is plenty of evidence for me.

Hey, thats not what i'm saying at all. I -said- you do have to pay the extra cost, here:



Stop putting words in my mouth, please. If you want your Focus to work like a city master, well, you need an enchanted citymaster. Which is entirely possible within the rules, but you should read up on street magic for details.

As to the other part...... Yeah, I realize a ghost car is pretty silly. And awesome. But silly.
In fact, you can do silly things with it. Like project, materialize next to your body on the road, and race your Pilot.

I'm pretty sure that Shadowrun's ban on 'no magical ranged weapons' apply. Your astrally gauss cannon is really only good for poking people with if it can't fire - and without ammunition.

Regarding projection, Foci go with you into the astral but any technological aspects they possess stop working. So a car would become a giant paperweight on wheels. It's in the FAQ, the question was specifically about vibroblades as weapon foci. The answer was that a vibrosword in its astral form is just a sword, so a citymaster becomes a cart I guess.

So purely astral ramming wouldn't be possible, dual natured ramming might be, but I'm not sure how much damage a purely astral being would take. Considering the acceleration possible in astral form it's not like momentum or mass mean much there. So IMO that rules out "my car is a sustaining focus" types of things, but as a weapon focus, if you can get away with claiming ramming as a melee atack, should work. That said, an astral being could just fly upward at any time or effortlessly outrun the vehicle so good luck.

I'm not inventing a rule at all. I'm just applying an exiting one to a new situation. The vehicles ramming damage would still be based on its meatspace speed.

And, to be fair, shadowrun astralspace doesn't have vehicles natively. Otherwise, you can be sure that -someone- would have invented ghostly-dirtbike-jousting by now.

If you want to argue from an out-of-game perspective on whether astral ramming is viable or not, then you need to quantify a spirits mass.

No, my point was that there's no Body rating for anyone in that space. My position is that weapons aren't doing damage based on their weight, and being hit by a big object just pushes you. You don't get rammed by a hellhound, right? Instead, it's some philosophical voodoo about 'the essence of the weapon' and 'the will of the mind', and so on. Dragons and things are definitely big enough to be in the class of 'astral vehicles'.

I'm not saying it's not a funny idea, and one that was original when someone first thought it up. But, like most funny game tactics, it doesn't actually function.

Heh the FAQ is actually pretty interesting regarding many topics in this thread:



And, are you ready for this?



Lol

Yeah, I remember reading that. That's a 'no, not yet'.

What are you smoking? Sure there is. Its just swaped for Willpower for -mages-. Spirits still have it, too - its just that they're handled specially, and use Force for everything. Including will-subbed-for-body tests. The car just gives everyone the finger, by using its own body, because its not a native

also, uh, how are people getting pushed without Force(which needs mass), and how does your interpretation affect dual natured beings? Your physics need to be consistent between both realsm.

And I think you're also ignoring the bit about Weapon Foci getting special treatment for beating up on people. Reading it again, I think you would actually use your Astral Combat skill to do the ram attempt(since ramming is treated like a melee attack, and melee attacks with a weapon focus in astral work a different way).

There's also rules-precedent for Astral forms being forced into/hitting other barriers - Wards, which are capable of automatically disrupting things forced into them.

That makes sense, except you can't ram in astral. You can hit someone with the car by holding it in your hand and smacking them, but you don't get a Ram action, and you don't get Ram damage.

There is zero reason for physics to be consistent across to astral. It's magic.

Do people bruise their face if they run into a ward?

So, lan, what you're saying is....


You need to find a Body 20 Boulder, turn it into a weapon focus, and use the Astral Speed walking/running tables to Katamari people into oblivion with an a giant, Fire Aura'd, AP half boulder of doom.

What. Its got no technological parts.

Just saying, the bit about technology not working doesn't invalidate the technique itself.

See, *that's* exactly what I'm saying: the boulder doesn't work, and neither does anything else: critters, spirits, foci, whatever. The technique being invalid is what invalidates it.

I look forward to 'an upcoming sourcebook' that would give rules for that as much as the next guy.

1) prove it. You normally can't ram, because there are no vehicle class objects in astral. Once there are.....well, their rules don't change.

2) Yeah, they do. Spirits are instakilled, spells are automatically turned off, foci are disabled, and characters instantly fill their stun monitor.



But if it were, say, a transys steed, who's wheels don't stop working in astral(mechanical, not technological. okay, the electromotive -brakes- might stop working), and IS a vehicle, and not a rock, and can thus use vehicle options - like ramming.

From smashing into the ward a là ramming, or from the magic of how wards work?

Why do you even need a vehicle? An astral projecting mage can "run" at 6,000 km/hour according to the rulebook. Just "ram" the spirit with the weapon focus rock that you're carrying in your arms.