What if you are tossing it into a room before clearing it? Like SWAT teams do in real life with Flash Bangs. Remember that 2m is 6 Feet.

BTW do the SR rules as written allow you to do that? Open a door, toss a flashbang in, and close the door?

A flash bang is not what I was referring to (because it's not suicidal), but yes. Still, 2m is closer than you'd want for that purpose anyway; if you throw it at the wall, it can only scatter into the middle of the room, so aim further!

Opening and closing doors is a Simple Action, so… almost. You could throw and close; personally, I'd throw and move behind the wall, then just move back. It's a free action.

If a modern police force tried to do that to some SR4 samurai's or adepts, they would get their assess handed to them as the runners moved through the door in the middle of the action so fast that they would be among the cops before they knew it. That is the difference between 3 & 4 IP and 1. (Of course, the rules don't exactly bear out that scenario, but it would be cool as hell to see!)

But then your killing hands turn it to physical and then the element turns it to stun and then your killing hands makes it physical and then you explode from the feedback loop.

I think the real answer is elemental strike is poorly written in virtually every sense and it is very unclear on what it should do, so do what you thinks makes a better game. Though as a note if you grant the AP effects of the elements a physical smoke fist of doom blows up citymasters etc really good. Even 1/2d armor is pretty bad assed for the flaming fists of doom.

Well given my movie lore I know in a movie shrapnel does not go through walls when you toss a grenade into a room. After closing the door it will be blown off the hinges while you throw yourself to the ground escaping the fiery(yes fiery) explosion.

This is Shadowrun, though; the explosion could be icy.

I disagree... Elemental Strike has a given effect, and you cannot increase it with Killing Hands... You EITHER use Killing Hands (Or an Elemental Effect that uses actual Physical Damage) to kill/incapacitate your opponent, or you use an Elemental Effect (Regardless if your Killing hands is on or not; note that ES will still affect the Spirit here) that is Stun based to capture/incapacitate your opponent.... Two very different results here, for Two very different reasons...

There are only 3 Elemental Effects statted that deal Stun Damage, every other one is Physical... so your Elemental Strike using Fire that you used as an example still deals physical damage... and your Elemental Smoke does not "Blow-Up" anything, as it is Stun, and vehicles do not take stun damage, but it is very good for penalizing your opponents, and the Half Armor is Canon for all Elemental Strike Effects...

For reference:

Killing Hands :

This power uses magic to turn unarmed attacks into lethal, physical
damage. When participating in unarmed combat, you may do
normal Stun damage or declare the use of Killing Hands and inflict an
equal amount of Physical damage instead. Killing Hands may be used
with Critical Strike (p. 195).
A Killing Hands attack may also be used against creatures with
Immunity to Normal Weapons (p. 295) to inflict either Stun or
Physical damage; their defensive bonuses do not count against Killing
Hands. Killing Hands can also be used in astral combat (see Astral
Combat, p. 193).

Elemental Strike:

This power can only be developed by characters who
already possess the Killing Hands power (p. 188, SR4).
Elemental Strike enhances the effects of Killing Hands with an
elemental effect (see pp. 164–165 of this book and pp. 154–
155, SR4). The specific elemental effect must be chosen at the
time the power is bought, though an adept may take this power
more than once to achieve different elemental effects (only
one elemental effect may be applied per strike). While active,
the power wreathes the adept’s hands with a visible effect appropriate
to the chosen element. Activating Elemental Strike
is a Simple Action, after which the effect lasts for (Magic attribute)
Combat Turns. Given the focus it demands, Elemental
Strike may not be combined with Distance Strike.

So what part of enhancing your killing hands implies it turns it off so it goes to stun? In fact it happens when you hit, so I turn on my elemental strike and where does it say I can not have my killing hands on at the same time making it physical damage. If anything since it says it is enhancing your killing hands I'd say the more logical assumption is no matter what the element damage type claims to be(and given that spells ignore it it is hardly an absolute rule and more a default suggestion) it will be physical because it always used in conjunction with killing hands. (the turn stun damage to physical damage power)

As for the armor penetration I have seen many people prefer an interpretation where the elemental effects they were going for is the side effects and not the 1/2 armor part. It is more of what they think the RAI is as opposed to the RAW, since 1/2 armor+side effects for .5 even though you have to activate it vastly outperforms things like penetrating strike.

Agreed: the 1/2 armor would be from *replacing* Killing Hands, not enhancing it with an Elemental *effect*. Problem solved.

That is easy... The act of enhancing your Killing Hands with an Elemental Strike that inflicts Stun Damage CHANGES the Damge from your Killing hands from Physical to Stun... What part of that do you not get? You are changing the Lethality of your Killing Hands for something Else... it is really just as simple as that...

As for outperforming Penetrating Strike... it is a .25 pp per Level (Max 3) Power... Elemental Strike costs you 1.0 pp (Have to have Killing Hands First)... You tell me which is more powerful...

I see no disconnect here...

Where does it say it changes it? I didn't see anything that said it changed damage type. The way I read it it says it enhanced the effect of my killing hands(the effect is turning stun to physical damage, enhanced would not be turning it back to stun), a more precise reading IMO states that you don't have an option when your elemental strike is going instead of declaring I am using killing hands when you hit it is always on it is pre-declared and you always do physical damage while elemental strike is running. So what part of that don't you get? If you can point me to the place where it says it replaces the damage type of killing hands instead of saying it enhances it I'll agree with you and say I am wrong. As written elemental strike is always doing physical damage since it enhances my turn stun to physical damage power by adding an additional effect, not replacing it, adding to it.

Elemental Strike is NOT always doing Physical Damage, if you choose the Elementals of Electricity, Smoke or Sound... the damage becomes Stun for those types of Elemental Strike... Says so right in the descriptions; Page, Chapter and Verse...

Description of Elemental Strike says that it enhances the Effects of Killing Hands with an Elemental effect... See Pages 163-165 of SR4A, and Pages 164-165 of SM for the relevant effects of the Elemental Attacks. Specific Effect MUST be chosen... and only one elemental effect may be applied per srtrike.

Perusal of the relevant sections indicates that Elemental Electricity (Electricity Damage) is Stun Damage with Additional Effects. Elemental Smoke is also Stun Damage with additional Effects; and glory be, Elemental Sound is Stun with additional Effects... ALL OTHER ELemental Effects deal Physical Damage. You are trading your Physical Damage potential for Stun Damage + Additional Effects when choosing either Electricity, Sound or Smoke... Not sure why that is so difficult to understand. It says so right in the descriptions of the Power and the Effects themselves... If you use The above three elements, the damage becomes Stun, not Physical...

Almost correct, just minor differences. mainly that -1/2 AP is canon for all Elemental Strikes. IIRC, Metal acts as flechette, adding either +2 or +5 AP (I forget which), and Sonic does not use armor at all.

Other than that, pretty much.

Incidentally, if you pay careful attention to the RAW for "Blast In A Confined Space" even Flashbangs can be HYPERBOLICALLY SUPER-LETHAL in certain (not that uncommon) circumstances.

And yet my killing hands turns stun damage to physical. So even after looking at it and seeing that electricity is stun, my killing hands makes it physical, because that is what killing hands does, and it never said anywhere that my ability to do so stopped. You are inserting lines like "You are trading your Physical Damage potential for Stun Damage + Additional Effects when choosing either Electricity, Sound or Smoke" That line never exists in the power description, it never says I am trading in my turn stun to physical damage power. I am trading in absolutely nothing, I gained the additional ability to shock hand you but still have the ability to turn stun damage to physical, that is kind of what enhance means. enhance does not mean trade in for. So even when adding a stun based elemental effect I retain my ability to turn stun damage to physical, unless you are claiming it is no longer an unarmed strike which killing hands works on. But last time I checked elemental strike still is unarmed and only works for unarmed.

The elemental effects section gives general rules on elemental magical damage, it is not the elemental strike table but general rules. General rules can be overridden by specific rules, in this case the specific rule of killing hands turning stun damage to physical. If it said see PG 145 the elemental strike table you would be right on because that would then be the specific rule. Or heck if it ever said anywhere that elemental effects override or replace your killing hands effect instead of saying enhance.

This is, of course, why many SWAT teams use two people for a flashbang entry. One guy to pop the door, the other guy to toss the flashbang. Generally they don't close the door again, though, they just duck back behind the wall and shield their eyes for a moment.


-karma

Totally agree.
Thanks for explaining that so much better then i ever could.

First, elemental strike itself is completely weird. Not just the lightning version; all of elemental strike is weird.

Your hands are wreathed in fire now, so your hand strikes do Fire damage instead of normal kinetic impact damage? That's rather weird too, don't you think?
Basically Elemental Strike converts the effective impact of your strikes into a surge of elemental power; this is different from say, Shock Gloves; this is the only electric melee attack that does use Strength.

I looked it up, and the result surprised me;



So it's clearly in addition to whatever Killing Hands happens to do, which is only two things:
- Option to convert Stun to Physical damage
- Bypass ItNW

It is weird, but there is the precedent of Lightning Bolt doing Physical damage.

At this point, all that I can say is that I disagree with you, and move along... We have both presented our interpretations, and, apparently, we will never convince each other of the opposing point of view...