Wired should be essence costly for the first level as it's invasive surgery, with discounts for each additional upgrade as presumably most of the upgrade is accomplished with upgrading the neural interface. Yes some part of levels 2-3 probably involves upgrades of the transmission fibers/superconductors driving the system but honestly the big cost should be upfront.

If you went with a declining scale you would do something like

Wired 1 - Essence 1.5
Wired 2 - Essence 2.5
Wired 3 - Essence 3.25

In addition I'd give wired reflexes the + rating to dodge rating because honestly if you are moving hella fast you should be harder to hit

Further I'd probably make Move By Wire be a modular upgrade for Wired Reflexes as it could easily use the same pathways established by the wired reflexes enhancement. Skill wires would be at reduced essence cost and the whole combo would have a cyberware suite discount.

MBW 1 (Wired 1 = 1.5, SkillWires 2 = .2, Reaction Enhancer 1 = .3) x0.9 = 1.8
MBW 2 (Wired 2 = 2.5, SkillWires 4 = .4, Reaction Enhancer 2 = .6) x0.9 = 3.15
MBW 3 (Wired 3 = 3.25 SkillWires 5 =.5, Reaction Enhancer 3 = .9) x0.9 = 4.185

It's a slight downgrade from by the book because it's incompatible with further levels of reaction enhancer but honestly that's not that big of a deal. The essence discount still makes it worthwhile. Furthermore since you don't have to yank out your wired reflexes but are in effect upgrading a previous investment the upgrade process from Wired to MBW is much less costly in terms of monetary resources.

I'd also give the dodge boost to other forms of IP enhancers (Synaptic, Adept Powers, etc) I'm not sure about giving it for stuff like drugs.

That makes an assumption that essence loss is based on how much you replace, which isn't the case as seen by bone replacement.

Which is already accomplished by an increase to reaction. All that does is devalue MBW, especially if you give it to other IP enhancements as well.

All you're really doing is making low IP characters less and less viable.

*shrug* Given that everyone will have IP enhancement, and the huge power of that in combat, will it help to also give them Dodge dice? Maybe make that another component of the MBW suite. Making cyber better shouldn't be the same as 'power creep'. It's a big problem.

Never said my opinion was better, all I said was that it was an option that can be used, Since a Standard Pair of Binoculars cannot support a Camera.

As for the Simrig... Yes, it is a trivially cheap option.

Granted essence loss exists mainly as a balancing mechanism but each additional IP gives a diminishing rate of return already. Wired 1 is a 100% improvement over unenhanced, Wired 2 is a 50% improvement over Wired 1. Wired 3 is a 33% improvement over Wired 2. It's not like Wired 3 gives you additional passes at the beginning (like Shadowrun has worked in the past), IP 4 comes at the end.

Bone lacing is also fairly invasive surgery, I personally think it's been over-costed across all editions of the game but even if you assume nanites depositing the latticework all over the body, that's a ton of foreign material for the system to deal with. If it's more traditional surgical implantation that's a ton of freaking cutting to implant all that lacing.



Personally I'd prefer the dodge bonus be jettisoned entirely, as I don't really like the reasoning behind it, but if you must have it I don't see why other IP enhancers don't offer a similar advantage because basically we are talking about moving fast enough that a shooter has a hard to drawing a bead on your position. I don't really see why MBW should be a special case.

Beyond that my main goal is to make the higher levels of Wired more reasonable. At current there really is no reason for including Wired 3 because it's cost-benefit vs stuff like MBW simply make it uncompetitive. This modification reduces the costs overall and makes the upgrade process for mundanes less resource intensive.

As to the low IP character viability, I already feel like 2 IPs pretty much is the minimum for being "decent" in live fire situations. Mages can get by with being slow because they can somewhat reliably generate a one hit kill/disable spell even if it means they are taking a bunch of drain. Single IP mundanes should leap for cover when the bullets start flying and the bodies hit the floor.

As a concession though I wonder how problematic it would be to allow Drugs based IP boosts to stack with augmentations if you included an overstress mechanism. That way a Wired 1 NPC could boost to +2 IPs, Wired 2 to +3 IPs etc. I kinda like the idea of having an overdrive button (yes edge can function as an overdrive as well) that allows PCs and NPCs to upgrade their threat level.

Honestly I didn't want to come up with a half assed guess of what an additional dodge dice should cost essence-wise

Re: bone lacing, Essence cost is usually about neurological integration, not gross 'invasiveness'.

@Brainpiercing7.62mm

For adepts it depends on how much optional rules you are using. With WotA and Geas(spelling might be off) you may have it for 2 Points right on Chargen. (Which I would not call a hefty investment.

Mages on the other hand, you are just mistaken. First of all you would need a force 4 sustaining foci to get the 4 hits needed in order to get 4 IP.
(Yes it just adds two but thats ok, because you pay double for the first one)
And every point of BC will drop your IPs by one. So to be safe you would need about a force of 5 to 6. Which would transalte in 60.000 cash and 12 Karma and naturally 5 Karma for the spell. (Or if you get it at chargen it would cost you 12+6+5+3=26 BP

As a mundane you might just take the move by wire 3 and be done with it. (5+20=25BP)


@Vuron

Well, but increasing something further should always be more expensive for the same step (one IP) than the first one. It is the sam with skills.
From one to two doubles your skill but still from 5 to 6 is more expensive.

I think MBW's bonus comes from the fact that you can move much more randomly, change direction much more quickly than what is allowed by simply moving faster because it operates off you being in constant seizure.

And diminishing returns are questionable at best. Just because you've already been given 1 million dollars doesn't mean being given another 1 million dollars is any less. Similarly just because you've been given 1 bonus IP already doesn't make another bonus IP any less of an extra IP. And you're right, they aren't as valuable since they don't come at the start of an IP, but after the first turn of combat that is entirely irrelevant.

@Ghost_in_the_System
As a matter of fact, I do not care a bit, honestly.
The idea to keep the first two cheap is to give the avarage sam a hint on what to take.
Yes linear cost like the synaptic booster would have been nice, but anyway.

As a matter of fact, the increase stays the same. It is one additional IP.


Of course only after a certain threshold.

My impression was that it was random.

If it was about neurological integration, a datajack for .1 essence compared to 1 point of dermal plating at .5 essence makes no sense. On the other hand I can't see how an internal air tank isn't "gross invasiveness" and that's only .25. Even a datajack and a internal air tank combined don't even come close to the control rig (.5) so heaven only knows how that works.

Essence is based on the value of the implant, as Ess is mainly a balancing tool

True enough, not hefty, however, both are officially optional, so... YMMV. And, they are just as vulnerable to BC, unless you have other powers to disable.

This is not correct. The sustaining focus only allows a force 3 spell, but if you cast the spell with edge, the net hits from edge dice aren't included in that limit. Hence, it is easily possible to get 4IPs simply by casting the spell into the focus at some point and just leaving it in there. You might spend some additional edge until you get it right... (With special care to not walk through barriers, etc, and hopefully taking care not to be attacked from the astral.)
And there are still the other options mages get: Spirit of Man trick, etc. At some point you can simply dump 10+ karma into a quickened spell and be fairly certain that it will always win against barriers and dispellers.

Except you can't, because it's got availability 25 (and F!), whereas restricted gear only works until 20. This is the whole problem of mundanes. They simply cannot get that 4th IP without Synaptic Boosters at chargen - even with high-power chargen options such as 750karma.

That Force 3 plus Edge exploit is purely awful.

But you can get Wired 3 at Chargen...

The fluff description has consistently suggested that MBW users are exceedingly graceful and smooth moving because the MBW is constantly correcting for instability. That grace and speed probably mean that you can dodge more effectively both by avoiding relatively slow moving objects like melee weapons and by juking and jiving like crazy to avoid getting hit by fast moving projectiles (I assume that even at 4 IPs nobody is doing Neo style bullet dodging antics- of course YMMV).



Diminishing Marginal Utility is a real concept though

Anyway the point is that wired as they currently exist are priced incorrectly. Because Wired 3 is such a bad deal in terms of it's essence cost and physical cost in combat utility it's simply not in the game in any meaningful way. The solution is to either discount the essence cost thereby increasing marginal utility in comparison to other options, or decrease physical costs so that it's more attractive as an initial investment. My thought is that -5 Essence is simple too expensive in terms of the limited number of choices open to a PC at chargen and thus you need to bring the essence more in line with it's utility.

So here's something interesting:

Wired Reflexes 2: 3 essence
Skillwires 4 (.8 essence)
Move by Wire 2: 3 essence

Move by Wire is the same essence cost as Wired Reflexes, and gives you for free: +2 reaction +1 dodge, and skillwires = 2, 4, or 5 depending on the level of move by wire.

Wired Reflexes gives you +1 reaction

I think it has already been established that the MBW is the more advanced form of Initiative Enhancement.

Wired reflexes 3 is available at chargen for 100k
But I can get MBW 2 for 3.6 and 42K

It really seems liked Wired Reflexes needs either a serious cost reduction, or a slight essence reduction.

lets say down to 1/2/4
Which means that with second hand I can get them for 1.2/2.4/4.8 and as low as 50k

There is alot of stuff that falls into this category, just because something is an option doesn't mean you have to take it or that the option has to be optimal. If every choice is optimal, there is no point in making choices.

In effect MBW is Wired + Reaction Enhancers (plus you can get up to 3 more) + skillwires + dodge bonus. It's a pretty significant package deal.

MBW 1 is paying a premium for the essence discount. Purchased separately the systems would cost 2.7 essence and 25k if we ignore the dodge cost (which is hard to guesstimate). Basically a 25k mark up. In many ways the value of +2 IPs makes MBW 1 inferior to Wired 2 at chargen.

MBW 2 purchased separately would cost 4.4 essence and 60k. So an essence discount of 1.4 for a markup of 25k (same as the MBW markup). Really makes the MBW shine.

MBW 3 purchased seperately would cost 6.9 essence and 140k. Essence discount of 1.9 (which is huge) for a markup of 35k. MBW 3 is the upgrade of choice. Of course it's not available at chargen.

Factor in second hand discounts and the relative value of MBW vs Wired really makes Wired seem lackluster. Wired 2 isn't horribad but it's an early trade-in.

From a game balance perspective this isn't really a great design though.

If a PC has a finite pool of resources (money, essence, etc) the non-optimal options will simply put them at a competitive disadvantage vs other players or the opposition. I'm not saying that everyone has to play char op characters all the time and indeed the game seems to break down around the edges when everyone is fielding ridiculous dice pools for every combat action, but that in order to make the game accessible designers should avoid incorporating trap options.

Options that don't measure up should either be eliminated like cyberware phones from 1e or should be reduced in cost so that they are priced according to their utility.

Wired's cost in relation to the other options is simply too high. The essence cost vs the utility of the MBW system is too high and while the bioware option is incredibly costly the utility of low essence impact especially on awakened characters shouldn't be underestimated.

And I can get Wired 3 Second Hand for 3.6 Essence and 50K. And Wired 2 Second Hand is 2.4 Essence and 16K.
Not sure what your point is.

How are you getting Wired 3 second hand for 3.6 essence.. ?

Right now 2nd hand Wired 3, would be 6 essence for 50k. (ie not possible)

Alpha it? O.o
Or maybe even Beta?
Beta Used Wired 3 for 200k?

1) You can't do used and beta.
2) That's not 50K
3) Alpha Used Wired 3 would be 4.8 essence, and 100k

You can't combine used and beta.

That is absolutely wrong.

Having one option be clearly better than the other (Boosters vs any other initiative enhancement) is what eliminates choices.

If your choice is between "The good thing, and the crappy thing" then you have no choice.

Ideally, all options will be optimal, but in different ways. Synaptic boosters are essence friendly, but cost a mountain of cash. Alternatively, Wires only cost a few months salary, but cost you an actual arm and a leg. (so to speak) Assuming that these costs are balanced against each other, they both become valid choices, but are still different.

As it stands, it almost doesn't matter how cheap the wires are, 5 essence is just too much. Deltaware makes wires workable, but then they cost too much money, because basic boosters are just as good for 1/4th the cost in nuyen, and still save you a whole point of essence.

Currently, the balance between the nuyen and essence costs between Wires, MbW, and Synaptic Boosters are completely out of whack, and that reduces choices. If you want 4 IP's, then there is no choice, you take boosters.


As for why MbW gives dodge, I view it as more of a specific function of that system. As we know, MbW mimics the Fly-by-Wire system used in aircraft by putting your body into a state of constant seizure (an unstable airframe) and then regulating those seizures to create extremely quick, smooth motion.

However, another important aspect of that is that it fundamentally changes the way your nervous system works. Wires and boosters make your nervous system faster, MbW actually changes the way you move.

Essentially, when you flinch away from something with wires/boosters, you just do it faster. When you flinch away from something using MbW, the system translates it into a smooth evasion.

Actually 5 essence and 100K


Well luckily thats not really the case.
Yes 5 essence is almost all you have, but 240K is also pretty much all of your cash in chargen.
Alpha wired 3 are "only" 4 essence and are still 40K cheaper then the booster.

Sadly no, Used Alpha gives an essence discount for no nuyen cost and is perhaps one of the stupidest things I've ever seen added to a system since the book actually points out that this is how it works.

Thats is actually a mistake in the book, the modifiers should be added together before applying them to the base cost.

Nicola is looking for some high-class muscle replacement
for her character Clutterbone, but since she’s short
on nuyen, she decides to defy the bad reputation of secondhand
cyberware and tries to acquire a Rating 2 alphaware
muscle replacement implant.
The base Essence cost of the implant would be 1.92
(the original 2 Essence cost for Rating 2 muscle replacement
x 0.8 for alphaware grade x 1.2 for the second-hand
state of the implant), while the Availability would be 9R
(10R for the original implant,–1 for being second-hand)
and the cost 10,000¥ (10,000¥ x 2 x 0.5).

Stupid Augmentation book

The difference there is that while 240k is pretty much all of your starting cash, 5 essence is most of what you have forever.

Sure you can recover some of that essence by upgrading to higher grades of 'ware. But the problem here is that you are, at that point, much better off just upgrading to basic synaptic boosters, cause its vastly cheaper in both nuyen and essence compared to beta grade wires.

Ok, seriously, is there an official errata or something on this? Because I keep hearing it both ways, and I have no idea how this is supposed to work.

Sadly the English version of the errata have never been released and is apparently missing currently after the resent troubles.
But if you care to search these forums, you can find multiple mentions of what i said to be in it from top devs, of that time.

Now.... how did I miss that. Maybe I just looked at 5 essence and though, crap, not worth it.



Well... I don't see why it shouldn't work like that. It makes sense, and without this having used alpha makes no sense. With this normal cyber makes no sense. What you need to do is not change that rule, it's change the multipliers to actually differ. (So that used alpha is a little more expensive and a little better than regular, not just a little better.)

I'd be curious as well. Augmentation leaves a pretty clear example of how it should be done.

Augmentation uses Base Cost x .8 (alpha) x 1.2 (used). Yes a 0.04 essence discount for no cost differential is stupid Personally I think second hand should be limited to base ware instead of custom cyberware (which should be custom for each user) but oh well.

Currently there is absolutely no reason to no start with used alpha for everything but cultured bioware.

The reason may be that standard ware is simply obsolete. Even with having been in another body before Alphaware is still better. As to why it isn't more expensive than bnew standard ware, this may be because people are put off by the fact that the implants have been in another person before, possibly one that died. What I really don't get is the fact that used ware is more readily available.

Don't forget that standard as well as alphaware are off the rack. Theys are not designed for a certain individual, except for cultured Bioware.

Duh... Yep, Brain Fart, not sure what I was thinking there... Sorry.
But if you were Biocompatible, it would be less than 6 Essence...

Just to be clear, you can get Wired Reflexes II at alpha and Reaction Enhancers 2 for the exact same essence as MBW2, slightly less nuyen, and no Restricted Gear.

Since the dodge bonus isn't much of a bonus if you're going the Athletics/CloseCombat route, you end up buying Restricted Gear for a free skillwires 2. For me the limitations on skillwires 2 don't make them worth it, even at that cheap price. I'd rather spend a point of edge, add my edge dice and let 6's explode then load the activesoft for (at most) 3 more dice (because you can't edge the skillwires - best you can do is buy the skillwire expert system to allow edge to be spent on a reroll).

Note: If you're playing a smuggler ignore the above. The skillwires as a replacement for Mechanical skills alone make a decent trade off, even after buying the activesofts. But for people whose primary interest is in reaction and IP's, MBW isn't all that shiny.

Suoq, MBW 2 gives Skillwires at rating 4. If you customize it for yourself, you can get 5 dice for the skill in question.

Indeed... Skillwires 4 is pretty good. Especially with the Skillwire Expert System, and Customized Chips.

Alpha Wired 2 = 64,000 Essence 2.4
Reaction 2 = 20,000 Essence .6

1k discount and you don't have skillwire 4 (not skillwire 2). Now activesofts do cost a decent amount of money but the ability to chip rating 4 active skill is pretty nice. Need to be a wheelman for run, or need a specialized skill, an active soft plus a decent attribute score can net you a decent dice pool instead of being forced to default. I suspect for many people that flexibility is worth the slight increase in costs.

Of course when you compare used alpha Wired 2 + used alpha Reaction Enhancer vs used alpha MBW the costs shift in favor of the Used Alpha MBW

Used Alpha Wired 2 = 32,000 Essence 2.88
Used Alpha Reaction 2 = 20,000 Essence .576

Used Alpha MBW 2 = 50,000 Essence 2.88

So for less money and less essence you get the same +2 IP and +4 Reaction plus free alpha skillwires 4 + dodge boost.

Granted this merely illustrates why Used Alpha is a wonky addition to the game.

My bad on the skillwires being 4 instead of 2. Still not impressed. It makes it more of a decent trade off, but I don't think it "shines". A rating 4 activesoft is 40 grand so being a wheelman by using a pilot groundcar 4 chip for a run simply isn't cost effective unless you're pirating your softs.

Even with the correction, I'd still prefer the Wired Reflexes II at alpha and Reaction Enhancers 2 over the MBW2 unless:
1) I had a specific 2 skills I want to use but not improve or ever use edge on. (Cost = 21 BP (5 extra MBW, 8 BP each for the activesoft) vs 32 BP for actual skills that can be edged and improved)
2) It's not going to put me past the 250,000 limit. (MBW 2 & 2 skills @ 4 = 165,000 total.) I'm not buying Born Rich to pay for this because then #1 is a losing deal.

I'm even more likely to bite the essence cost and get them both at standard until I need the essence for something.

For a smuggler, I can see it. For roleplaying purposes I can see it. Maybe you have a specific character concept that it works for just as well, but otherwise I see it as an expensive that isn't going to be recovered.

It does seem like a bummer that skillsofts are so expensive... takes away all the advantages, IMHO.

Yeah, it balances out a bit better on chargen BP costs, but it doesn't take into account much the fact that it does require skillwires and eats up a huge chunk of your available resources and are virtually impossible to afford outside of chargen.

Well, there're a few legs in that stool.

GEAR: Cheapest, easily broken or lost, no essence.
CYBER: Cheap, durable, easy to spot, heavy essence.
BIO: Medium, limited, nigh-invisible, low essence.
NANO: Pricey, rare, weird, low essence.
GENE: Priciest, rare, non-diverse, lowest essence.

Yeah. There are also lots of gaps and holes, which isn't inherently bad. What's bad is the places where bio's cheaper than cyber, etc.

Skillsofts, pirated software, seems to work ok but the 1000 a month to keep it up is painful.

It's like being SR4 and SR4A they sat down and said "WOA! Something that cyber does well, lets throw an artificial price inflation at it so a piece of software to drive a car costs more then the car itself.