There's perhaps an argument to be made for this, but there's a profound difference between a trained observer and someone who has been looking around for 30 years.


The Pilot Groundcraft skill has very little to do with a person's ability to operate a motor vehicle. Pilot Groundcraft isn't used for popping to the shops [unless a deer runs out in front of you, in which case most people default], but for performance and combat driving. The general level of skill at combat driving can be compared, in an abstract fashion, to the general level of skill at spear hunting. Is the equivalency precise? It could be more precise, by taking a survey of the average skill levels in society into account, but most Shadowrun players aren't interested in that level of precision.


Doesn't this still leave the exact same problem with skills having different levels in society? Doesn't this leave the "perception, driving skill of [x] is from what it means MUCH higher than a survival skill of [x]" problem? Doesn't this mean the average person would tend to get two hits on even an average task?

My point is that the Magic attribute in previous editions is not an appropriate representation of power and cannot be compared in any way shape or form to SR4's Magic Attribute. Later on you compare SR3 Magic 6 = SR4 Magic 1 -- I maintain that this is incorrect because you are comparing 2 different things that happen to share the same name. Spellcasting for instance:

SR3
Drain Threshold - Magic
Spell Potential - Force of Spell Formula
Capability - Spellcasting skill (plus potentiall Spell Pool which includes 1/3 Magic)
Initiation - go wild

SR4
Drain Threshold - Magic
Spell Potential - 2*Magic
Capability - spellcasting skill + 100% of Magic
Initiation - limited to Magic

The Magic attribute was made DRASTICALLY more important to the functioning of magic in the game. It also has in world effects because it is now the only measure of spell potential (after learning the formula of course) and Initiation potential.

Take a theoretical "Master Pyromancer." In SR4 the only way to indicate this is that he has all the common Fire spells plus maybe a few unique ones he cooked up. In SR3 this is also shown in the Force of his spells. If he's managed to learn a Force 24 Fireball spell (which involves rolling a 24 on 1d6 or burning karma pool) he can safely say that he is the master of the Fireball spell. No one can cast Fireball better than him.

Part of the reason why players were willing to decline Magic increases during initiation in order to change their signature was because Magic was never as vital as it is now. If you never buy a force 7+ spell (at a Karma cost of 7+ and equivalent difficulty to learn) you never have to worry about physical drain while physically casting barring Magic loss (much more common in older editions). In fact, annecdotal evidence being so useful, I've seen more people change their signature than learn high force spells.

Quite right. I meant only to say that SR3 Magic 6 *doesn't* imply a strong mage in SR4, so I apologize for confusing people if I said it wrong. The point is that previous editions do not seem to contradict our rarity point.

Got you.

This continuously brings me back to the fact that the world of Shadowrun 4 is drastically different than the world of SR1-3. What seems like a harmless change in rules has actual in-world implications. Mages are created and operate in a very different fashion from the way they used to.

Do we need to start walking test modified by if you are chewing bubblegum at the same time? The issue here is for the GM (not RAW) to determine if a perception check is required.

Example-spotting the troll sitting by his lonsome on a Jackrabbit. Perception roll not needed.
Example 2-spotting the troll sitting with 5 humans at a bus stop. Perception roll not needed.
Example 3-spotting a specific troll amongst 10 other trolls. Perception roll needed (2 successes).
Example 3-spotting a troll amongst 10 other trolls while on top of a moving vehicle. Perception roll needed--and much harder.

This of course assumes the troll is not trying to stay hidden.

That's putting a lot of power on the GM, but let's assume you're right. That means drones simply can never spot people if there's anything at all affecting it (including the target saying 'I don't want to be seen'). This is *still* an issue, and a silly one. And it's hardly the only such issue to show up just for Perception alone, not to mention various other aspects of the game.

I agree that skill checks in SR4 are supposed to be extraordinary situations (Pilot Ground 0 is at least intended to be 'normal driver', Computer 0 is 'basic office user' or 'Aunt Mae'). But these little problems do exist, especially at the low end of DP scale. (Which is why I kinda favor extending the skill range up to at least 12, allowing more variation in the 'low end'.)

That test might cause a bubblegum crisis...

Yeah, but still you should be able to find a street sign if you are looking for it... (With 0 you CAN'T)

The point is with defaulting you would be in an accident every freaking month. Reaction 3, default 2 means you will glitch or even critical glitch very often.
If some child runs in front of your car, you won't be able to stop. If you have some ice on the road, you will crash. If one of your wheels pops, you will crash, if something comes under your wheel (stuck between wheel and street) you will crash. And this are all thing a "normal" driver should be able to handle. (Actually professional driver (taxi etc.) is 3, so maybe today everybody is on this level, because we have to drive ourself. Than everything works. With 6 dices, you might make it most of the time and you won't glitch.


The point is, you should not take "society" as a baseline. Because the test won't take society as a baseline. Because the cost do not take society as a baseline.
So this does not make sense.
Yeah, most people are better in locking for something than in sneaking. So they should have higher values in "perception" and lower values in inflitration.
Because as soon as you pit them against each other, the skills are eye to eye.


The avarage person should be able to survive his own day. And with skills of 0, this is actually not possible.

(Yes, I know why it is rules like this, so you do not have to pick up a lot of skills during chargen and because if you leave them out of the picture it would not be that bad, but it would save you a lot of BP compared to somebody who is making a "fluffy" character.)

Moral Statute Machine: You are fined one credit for a violation of the Verbal Morality Statute regarding bad Puns.

Could you please explain the logic underlying this conclusion?


Yeah, on the border of the very low end and emergency situations, the rules don't reflect reality particularly well. [Largely but not exclusively as a result of glitches.] I'm not convinced just adding 3 to everyone's die pools is going to fix the root problem without creating more, but I'm interested to hear more.


I'm not certain this takes into account the varying difficulty levels of what one might be trying to accomplish: finding your keys versus tip-toeing past a sleeping guard dog wouldn't be comparable, right? So I'm not sure how we could look at any two skills and calibrate them so that driving and sneaking and looking are all equally difficult, and scale equally across all skill levels, and require the same amount of training to improve at, etc. At some point, you have to tolerate a level of abstraction.


That's pushing it a bit. Most people's days don't even call for a die roll in things they don't have a skill in, unless your cosmic GM is a total prick. "Okay, now, you're zipping up your pants. Roll your zipping skill. Don't have one? Default, then! And your glitch means you've severed your penis, because all penalties for glitching in all skills must be equally severe! Ha ha ha!"

Needing 0 hits to spot something is one thing.
Having 0 dice to spot something is something else entirely . .
In one case, you can do it without straining yourself.
In the other case, you have no chance to notice something obvious.
Ever walked into something? A door, a Street-Sign, a Lamp-Post or something?
Why/How? These are bloody obvious, have reach of 0 and are easy to dodge.
Because you did not notice them. This is what 0 dice for perception means.

You don't have 0 dice. You have Stat+Skill.

But yes.

Well, if you have only stat, in SR4, you get -1 dice to your pool i think . . not sure though . .
So, basically, skill of 1 actually gives 2 dice, because no skill, defaulting to attribute, means -1 to pool.
That would mean the average pedestrian with all 3's in all stats would roll 2 dice to spot obvious stuff.
Well, as long as he is not distracted by anything too shiney or something, at least . .

@3278

Thats not the plan. The plan is to name the level according to what you may accomplish with it.


I have no problem with abstraction. The problem is, that SR uses very different levels in the description for the spells.

So computer 0 allows you to use a computer without problems.
Guns 0 means you have heard of guns.

Streetknowledge(Seatle) 0 means you have heard of Seatle.
Knowledge(academic) 0 makes you at least through half of the highschool. (So highschool dropout) (Now compare that to the avarage guy in the slums, who has never seen a school from the inside.)

But in game, the guy with computer 0 follows the same rules as the guy with gun 0.
But from the guy with gun 0 it is not expected (from the fluff) that he hits something, but the guy with computer 0 should be able to find something in the matrix.
The guy with gun 0 might try to shoot with the safty on. But the guy with computer 0 should find the "ON" button.

The problem is: They will both glitch, they will both have very few hits. But for one it fits the description and for the other it does not.

This leads finally to drones which will destroy your house in an attempt to clean it and a gridlink, which causes more accidents than forcing every guy getting into his car to have at least half a bottle of vodka.


You don't have to roll anything. But not roll, in order to cover your missing skills or a bad system is, well not a solution to the problem.
It is not about zipping up your pants, straw man and it would actually be agility if it ever should be called for.

Yes, you can always argue, that there should be no roll needed. But as soon as it gets to "does the drone shoot me" this is actually kind of unfair.
Because here we open a big box of GM fiat. Why should I invest in infiltration, if the GM is just telling if I am seen or not?

Except that the Drone is not just automatically seeing you. The drone has installed some sensors, probably an autosoft or two (or a rigger is Jumped in and using his own skills) and there is a Test for that. You seemed to miss that part, though.

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Psst, the problem is, the standart-drone does not see anything. They have a sensor of 2 and maybe an autosoft of 3. Sometimes no autosoft at all...

Psst... Who uses Standard Drones?
Just becaused they are sold that way does not mean that they stay that way.

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Thats why I am saying:
Upgrade humans and drones to around percpetion/clearsightsoft 3. (And drones should have sensor 2-3 not 1)
Because it does not work otherwise...

And if I had to guess, no GM lets his NPCs roll perception test with only intuition...

can't you add dice by taking time to "aim" I would say (logically) that would apply to searching on the matrix or looking for someone in a crowd.

No, because that is not the Standard. And it does work. You just fail to accept that it can work.

Cars are produced with certain Standard equipment. Then eveyrone adds Optional Choices. Notice, it is OPTIONAL... You cvould use a standard drone, and for some things, this will work. For a combat drone, well, you probably want some upgrades.

Ummmm... If the NPC does not have the Perception Skill, I do, so your guess would be wrong... Some individuals are just not that perceptive. That is a fact.

Indeed you can, for a gun at least.

Nothing in the books should *require* Optional Choices™, except maybe putting a gun in an existing mount, just to perform basic intended tasks.

No, there's no 'Aim' for Perception. That's only for shooting someone you can already see. 'Actively Looking +3' already covers that plenty.

You have to choose one way, you can't have both.

Does standart work, or do you need to upgrade?

No you don't...
Standard works for some drones. I upgrade others to what I want. I can have it both ways. Why can't you do that, exactly?

They are not Required... As long as you are happy to let the dumb dogbrain function at whatever capacity you buy it at, then no upgrades are required. As I said to Irion, Not all drones need an upgrade to do their job. For some, if you want them to excel at their job, you need to upgrade them. Just like a modern car.

And skill at level 0 is not the same as 0 die to use with a skill.
Skill 0 is, basically, a cheapish cop out for the world to function.
Because rules wise, you can't have skill 0.
Either you have a skill at level 1+ or you don't.
If skill 0 works, then everybody can argue not to have a dice pool penalty for defaulting to pure attribute.
because those with no skill have skill 0 and don't default either.

Sounds weasely, TJ. You can't say "They are not Required... As long as you are happy to let the dumb dogbrain" be crappy. That's like saying a parachute is not required for skydiving as long as you don't mind hitting the ground. Basically everything listed in the book can either *adequately* perform its normal functions out of the box, or there's a big problem.

Setting aside what you mean by that, none of this explains the logic underlying Irion's earlier conclusion that with a Perception skill of 0 you cannot find a street sign. I was hoping for an explanation of that.


Sure. But after adding 3 to everyone's die pools, right? That is the plan, correct?


That's just explicitly not true. SR4a, page 119. A Computer skill of 0 means, "Can send an email, browse a Matrix site, or store data on a commlink," while a Pistols skill of 0 means, "Point the barrel, pull the trigger." The idea is that you can use those skills in a basic fashion, to do basic things.


Absolutely! Ideally, there'd be a single system that works for all skills across all scales, while still being simple enough to easily apply to any situation easily. The SR4 system is not that system: it does not scale properly in certain combinations of circumstances. Every solution I've seen to that problem adds additional complexity; your suggestion might not do so, or might not do so unduly, but until I have a clearer sense of what your solution is, it's difficult for me to judge. As I say, I look forward to hearing more.


These situations do require a roll, but they're not the everyday situations you're describing as problematic. Sneaking past the drone isn't the same as driving to the store. You're right that SR4 doesn't scale well for the average person driving to the store, because statistically their odds of failure, and of critical failure, are unrealistically high, but the system is intended to not roll for everyday situations like driving to the store. Still, it doesn't scale well when everyday situations [driving to the store] meet standard challenges [someone runs out in front of the car]. Your solution is intended to address this problem.

Don't really want to get into the whole Infiltration vs astral patrolers debate, it has been argued to a standstill almost every time. What is undebatable is that the Infiltration skill works against astral observers by RAW. Don't have books with me, but it should say so in the skill description. Hell, you can even specialize in Infiltration (Astral).

The trick is to consider skills such as Infiltration (and its sickly sister Shadowing, which doesn't get nearly enough love) as abstract skills. You don't know exactly where the meat guards might be either, you are just minimizing your exposure time and hoping for the best, as well as using various tricks of the trade to make you less apparent to the naked (or astral) eye.

As to the untrained perceiver not noticing the troll walking his way and bumping into things all the time, get real folks! As 3278 and others have said, skill rolls are called for in stressful/opposing roll situations.

Walking down the street, any Tom Dick or Harry can see that scary looking troll walking towards them. However, the guy with good Perception might notice that telltale bulge that indicates a shoulder holster. The guy with no Computer skill can use his commlink fine for everyday stuff, but might get boned by an encrypted file.

Someone with no Running skill can run at standard running rates just fine (as long as the terrain is not tricky), but will have to default on STR -1 if he wants the chance to squeeze another metre or two per round. Of course, the woman in the dress and inappropriate shoes running through the woods away from the zombie or werewolf will always glitch and trip over a tree root, though. That's just the way it is.

And yet, as I said, these issues still pop up outside of 'trivial' contexts. It's not the everyday stuff we care about, but that doesn't mean the capabilities of drones, for example, are ridiculous. Take a look at the jamming rules for all those Sensor 1 and 2 drones.

@Midas

Not only the women in inappropriate shoes. The former female High school athlete will too. What would he have strength 2-3 (since every step of an attribute is a big one) and a skill of 2.
What the modifier is for running in the dark wood, but I would say it is at least 1 (1-3). This leaves her with a dicepool of 2-4.
With either 2 or 4, she will have a high chance to "fall". (2: Critical glitch 19,4%, Glitch: 11%, so every one ot of three test, she will glitch, 4: 13,2%)

But thats another point, the glitching rules are fucked up too. As soon as you get to 5 dice, a glitch is around 5% and dropping... (Low dicepools glitch far too often and the high once don't)

The point is, that the high school athlete won't have much from rolling the dice anyhow. What does she get? Around one hit for a high chance of glitches.
And running is one of those tasks where every hit helps.

What you always say is: Just do not give it a roll. How far are you willing to take this argument?
The problem is: If I am not even able to roll the basic things, the thing up the ladder won't be better...
So you end up with two worlds: The one world described in the fluff and the other world which you play in. Where every drone has twice or three times the perception pool.

But infiltration does not really work against shadowing. It is to sneak in somewhere not to loose somebody who has already noticed you. (There is no real skill for that.)

I would agree that the rules for drones and drone sensors are ridiculous. Fair enough that people might want to upgrade the sensor package for more advanced jobs, but for basic functions the standard model really should be able to do what it says on the tin.

OK, apples and oranges here. Infiltration is used to sneak up on someone unnoticed or sneak into a facility slipping past guards. Although it isn't necessarily so, think nighttime, think the commando crawling up to the barbed wire fence on his elbows.

Shadowing skill is used to tail someone, to lose a tail or to notice someone tailing you in a crowded environment. Think daytime, think the mall, think the man peering over his newspaper at the target. Watch a lot of black-and-white Humphrey Bogart noir movies to heighten your understanding and pick up some tricks.

Infiltration skill does work against astral observation by RAW. It says so in the skill description, although it does not say how. And this is the problem some people have with it, but there you go.

I do not recall if the description of the Shadowing skill talks about whether or not it works against astral pursuers (perhaps it doesn't), but the techniques would be the same (i.e. move unpredictably, turn corners then sudenly change direction, jump into that elevator as the doors are just closing, anything to try to break LOS and then duck and dive through a shop, down an alley so the pursuer won't be able to see you when they turn that corner). As far as I am concerned, if Infiltration can work against astral observation, so will Shadowing, unless anyone can quote me something saying it doesn't.

Your high-school athlete should have STR 3 or more, as she would have done weight training and that sort of thing. Skill 2 is fine. That's a base DP of 5 before modifiers. OK, so let's put her in the woods at night running away from a zombie. Call the terrain and visibility penalties -2. Her modified DP is 3, so yes fair chance of a glitch or critical glitch. That's what she gets for running away at full pelt panicing across tricky terrain. Perhaps she would be better off walking as fast as she can (and no, unfortunately there aren't rules for walking fast in SR4).

Whether a roll is called for or not called for, and what sort of tasks someone can reasonably be expected to perform if they are unskilled is up to the GM. I am sure the vast majority of GMs have a healthy dose of common sense, and as long as they do your game world should run smoothly.

@Midas

Depends. And even with 3 she ends up with most 4 dice.


The problem is, the Fluff/the common sense says A, the rules say B.


It works against astral patrols, not against astral tailing. BY RAW.

Visibility penalties for running?

No. General Penalty because of Distraction

I was thinking about a combination of poor visibility and tricky terrain (roots, branches, uneven ground and whatnot), but have to admit I really just pulled the DP penalty out my arse as appropriate to the situation. We are talking a theoretical situation here, so I was not bothered about looking it all up in the book.