Full Version: Sniper... or not?
I gotta admit, if your aim is 'One shot, One Kill' and you can shoot 3 rd burst clusters from a click out, why the hell not?
1) Ammo limitations.
2) The source of three shots is more than three times as easy to locate than the source of one shot.
The right tool for the right job. One shot one kill isn't always the best way to go, but anything shooting once is not always worth shooting twice.
~J
2) The source of three shots is more than three times as easy to locate than the source of one shot.
The right tool for the right job. One shot one kill isn't always the best way to go, but anything shooting once is not always worth shooting twice.
~J
Realism, which has no place in the game 
in the real world, maybe the first shot is on target, but without some severe bolting down of that rifle, the other rounds will be off slightly.
0.1 degrees works out to about 0.15 meters off target.
in the real world, maybe the first shot is on target, but without some severe bolting down of that rifle, the other rounds will be off slightly.
0.1 degrees works out to about 0.15 meters off target.
Im talking in a burst. Provided you CAN do 3 rounds in a quarter at a click, why not. Never said anything about it being able to be done =p
The noise thing, cant argue with you there.
Ammo? Unless its an extended op, or a super controled area, ammo for a sharpshooter should never be an issue. So you bring 2 extra clips insted of 1.
Certinly putting 3 12.7mm rounds into your targets left ventrical is gonna raise some eyebrows.
The noise thing, cant argue with you there.
Ammo? Unless its an extended op, or a super controled area, ammo for a sharpshooter should never be an issue. So you bring 2 extra clips insted of 1.
Certinly putting 3 12.7mm rounds into your targets left ventrical is gonna raise some eyebrows.
not to mention some ribs.
One good reason not to do three rounds in a quarter is that unless the first one fails to penetrate for some reason the other two are pretty much going to go straight through the hole unless there's a significant motion by the target or delay in the firing. You want a little bit of inaccuracy so that you actually get additional tissue damage.
~J
~J
| QUOTE (Critias) |
| Dragunov's have a full auto setting, IRL. |
The standard SVD Dragunov fire selector switch only has Safe and Semi positions. I suppose it's possible to make one capable of fully automatic fire, it might not even be very difficult, but I've certainly never heard of anyone doing that.
Like Arethusa said, it's possible to get larger magazines for it. Those are likely to be custom gear, though -- the only standard magazines have a 10-round capacity.
The HK G3SG/1, like the HK33SG/1 and I suppose a number of other sniper rifles, not only come in FA-capable varieties, they are in fact always come with a Safe/Semi/Full trigger group. I haven't seen FA-capable SG550-1 Sniper-models, but then I can't say I've read much about that particular weapon. FA-capable M21s are bound to be around in large numbers.
No weapon in existance can reliably put 3 successive rounds in a quarter at 1000 meters, and certainly not when fired in a burst. But, of course, the discussion was theoretical and this is Shadowrun, so let's consider it in a bit more detail.
The absolute best you can manage with the most accurate bolt-action rifles IRL is around 5mm/0.2" groups at 100 meters, which means 50mm/2" at 1 kilometer. It certainly won't bust my suspension of disbelief if sniper rifles twice or three times as accurate as that are available in the 2060s, which would allow a bolt action rifle to put 3 rounds into a quarter at one klick.
With a semi-auto? Heck no. With a fully automatic weapon? You gotta be kidding me. For reference, with an M16A2 firing semi-auto (very accurate as far as issue weapons go), you should consider yourself lucky if you can keep under 1 minute of angle (30mm/1.2" at 100 meters), with a burst it's going to average 5+ times that.
And if you've got a rifle as powerful as the 12.7mm+ snipers, first of all there's no way on earth the recoil for a 3-round burst wouldn't throw the last 2 shots wildly off target, not to mention putting serious hurt on your shoulder, and second anything more than 1 hit per human-sized target is pure overkill.
The absolute best you can manage with the most accurate bolt-action rifles IRL is around 5mm/0.2" groups at 100 meters, which means 50mm/2" at 1 kilometer. It certainly won't bust my suspension of disbelief if sniper rifles twice or three times as accurate as that are available in the 2060s, which would allow a bolt action rifle to put 3 rounds into a quarter at one klick.
With a semi-auto? Heck no. With a fully automatic weapon? You gotta be kidding me. For reference, with an M16A2 firing semi-auto (very accurate as far as issue weapons go), you should consider yourself lucky if you can keep under 1 minute of angle (30mm/1.2" at 100 meters), with a burst it's going to average 5+ times that.
And if you've got a rifle as powerful as the 12.7mm+ snipers, first of all there's no way on earth the recoil for a 3-round burst wouldn't throw the last 2 shots wildly off target, not to mention putting serious hurt on your shoulder, and second anything more than 1 hit per human-sized target is pure overkill.
he may have been confusing the dragunov with the SVU-A.
Not a sniper rifle, but what was that H&K rifle with the insane 3 round burst? IIRC it had a 4.7mm round, 50 round clip, and I'm sure someone said the damn thing floated... anyway, apparently the 3 round burst came out at some stupidly high ROF equivalent, 2000rpm or something, I think the idea was to keep rounds on target before the gun had a chance to recoil properly. Don't know how true any of that is, but maybe it's grounds for a technical evolution by the time of Shadowrun.
G-11. i suppose if you tie enough balloons on it, it'd float.
G11 indeed. The cyclic RoF of the 3-round burst is ~2000rpm, which means it only takes ~60 milliseconds to get the 3 rounds out of the barrel. During that time, the whole action recoils backwards inside the weapon to further reduce the loss of accuracy.
The G11 is the first weapon I thought of for a reference of accuracy from a fully automatic weapon, but unfortunately I just couldn't find a MoA accuracy quote for it. I would be very, very surprised if it could manage 2 MoA or smaller groups (<60mm at 100 meters) in the burst-fire mode.
I want some of whatever the guy who claimed the G11 floats was smoking.
The G11 is the first weapon I thought of for a reference of accuracy from a fully automatic weapon, but unfortunately I just couldn't find a MoA accuracy quote for it. I would be very, very surprised if it could manage 2 MoA or smaller groups (<60mm at 100 meters) in the burst-fire mode.
I want some of whatever the guy who claimed the G11 floats was smoking.
even if it does float, i guarantee that converting it to SR will put an end to that.
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) |
| G11 indeed. The cyclic RoF of the 3-round burst is ~2000rpm, which means it only takes ~60 milliseconds to get the 3 rounds out of the barrel. During that time, the whole action recoils backwards inside the weapon to further reduce the loss of accuracy. The G11 is the first weapon I thought of for a reference of accuracy from a fully automatic weapon, but unfortunately I just couldn't find a MoA accuracy quote for it. I would be very, very surprised if it could manage 2 MoA or smaller groups (<60mm at 100 meters) in the burst-fire mode. I want some of whatever the guy who claimed the G11 floats was smoking. |
Don't look at me, man
I just reports 'em. I think there was something about air-tightness, but I don't see how that could possibly work. Anyway, yeah, the G11 was the gun in question, thx for that
The air-tightness thing was because, IIRC, that the magazines came factory sealed and waterproof because the ammo was caseless.
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator @ Feb 24 2005, 05:05 PM) | ||
The standard SVD Dragunov fire selector switch only has Safe and Semi positions. I suppose it's possible to make one capable of fully automatic fire, it might not even be very difficult, but I've certainly never heard of anyone doing that. Like Arethusa said, it's possible to get larger magazines for it. Those are likely to be custom gear, though -- the only standard magazines have a 10-round capacity. The HK G3SG/1, like the HK33SG/1 and I suppose a number of other sniper rifles, not only come in FA-capable varieties, they are in fact always come with a Safe/Semi/Full trigger group. I haven't seen FA-capable SG550-1 Sniper-models, but then I can't say I've read much about that particular weapon. FA-capable M21s are bound to be around in large numbers. |
Sorry, I was thinking of this guy, which is described as a bullpup configured Dragunov. The SVU-A. My bad.
[edit - and god damn that wiley MFB. I'll beat you next time, Gadget!]
no, you won't. i always win. also, you're not in genchat, ass.
| QUOTE (Critias) |
| Dragunov's have a full auto setting, IRL. |
With a bit of smithing you can make any rifle which autoloads in to a full auto weapon. Even a Burst weapon.
Game Terms.
Why in the hell would one want to fire a 3 round burst when Sniping, thats over kill.
I know from my sniper course in the military, there creed was "One shot one kill."
Real life.
Those who do PH, some of the rifles are accurate up to 800M. I will be prepared to say that I don't care how well you shoot, the second shot that is fired with be far off its target.
If you get a 20MM drift from your shot at 100 M try 100mm at a 1000 M guns with this range have recoil, and have lots of it, Even with a Bi pods the second drifts off shot drifts.
Next time you shoots a rifle 30.06 or 30.08 or even a 7.62mm round even a 5,56.
Please do the following.
Fire the first round, keep the rifle steady thats is where your next shot would be. So in Semi or burst you can figure it out quite nicely.
BTW the Drakonov is the prefered Sniper rifle in IRAQ at the moment used by NATO and UN to and Some US Security forces. Y Because it breaches most 7,62 rounds succefully, being the predicessor of the AK47 with breaches all 7,62 Assault rifle and rifle rounds.
Why in the hell would one want to fire a 3 round burst when Sniping, thats over kill.
I know from my sniper course in the military, there creed was "One shot one kill."
Real life.
Those who do PH, some of the rifles are accurate up to 800M. I will be prepared to say that I don't care how well you shoot, the second shot that is fired with be far off its target.
If you get a 20MM drift from your shot at 100 M try 100mm at a 1000 M guns with this range have recoil, and have lots of it, Even with a Bi pods the second drifts off shot drifts.
Next time you shoots a rifle 30.06 or 30.08 or even a 7.62mm round even a 5,56.
Please do the following.
Fire the first round, keep the rifle steady thats is where your next shot would be. So in Semi or burst you can figure it out quite nicely.
BTW the Drakonov is the prefered Sniper rifle in IRAQ at the moment used by NATO and UN to and Some US Security forces. Y Because it breaches most 7,62 rounds succefully, being the predicessor of the AK47 with breaches all 7,62 Assault rifle and rifle rounds.
| QUOTE (Johnson) |
| With a bit of smithing you can make any rifle which autoloads in to a full auto weapon. Even a Burst weapon. |
I think this fact is fairly obvious, but I think they were confining their discussion to modern-day manufactured mass-produced rifles. Just a clarification.
"one shot, one kill" sounds nice and all, but it's not a very realistic goal in many cases. a burst, or full auto, affords you more chances to hit your target. in many cases, being sure you hit is more desirable than being sure no one knows where the shot came from. in those situations, a burst-fire or FA sniper rifle is a logical choice.
Or just, y'know, repeatedly pulling the trigger on your semi-auto.
Basically, it's just that there's no rule saying that you can only call yourself a sniper if you fire a single shot then pack it up and go home. Being a successfull uber-L33T ninja sniper just means shooting people dead, and trying to do it without letting the same happen to you. If that means pluggin' someone 'till they fall down, then emptying the clip into them, then running (which can be done by a Shadowrun character inside, y'know, 6 seconds or so)... then so be it.
Basically, it's just that there's no rule saying that you can only call yourself a sniper if you fire a single shot then pack it up and go home. Being a successfull uber-L33T ninja sniper just means shooting people dead, and trying to do it without letting the same happen to you. If that means pluggin' someone 'till they fall down, then emptying the clip into them, then running (which can be done by a Shadowrun character inside, y'know, 6 seconds or so)... then so be it.
| QUOTE (Johnson) |
| BTW the Drakonov is the prefered Sniper rifle in IRAQ at the moment used by NATO and UN to and Some US Security forces. Y Because it breaches most 7,62 rounds succefully, being the predicessor of the AK47 with breaches all 7,62 Assault rifle and rifle rounds. |
No. Just, NO.
The AK-47 (and thus AKM, AKMS) fire the 7.62x39mm Soviet M43, it will not chamber any other 7.62mm cartridge that I'm aware of, and it absolutely will not chamber 7.62x51mm NATO, 7.62x54mmR or the .30-06. That would be like trying to ram a .357 Magnum round into an M92 Beretta.
The Dragunov will only reliable feed and fire the 7.62x54mmR cartridge. With a bit of manhandling, you might be able to get the Dragunov to draw a 7.62x39mm or a 7.62x51mm cartridge into the chamber, though even that would likely prove quite difficult what with the SVD being designed to feed rimmed cartridges.
If you could manage to get the Dragunov to actually fire these rounds, which I slightly doubt, very much so in the case of 7.62x39mm, you'd be putting yourself at a huge risk. The cases of the x39mm and the x51mm are smaller than that of the x54mmR (obviously), so they might rupture inside the breech, which can then lead to the rifle blowing up in your hands.
Oh and you mean "successor", not "predecessor".
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| a burst, or full auto, affords you more chances to hit your target. in many cases, being sure you hit is more desirable than being sure no one knows where the shot came from. in those situations, a burst-fire or FA sniper rifle is a logical choice. |
Burst- or fully automatic fire will only beat semi-auto in likelihood of managing even one hit with a sniper rifle at rather short ranges when factors like target movement, concealment, etc. come into play. In most actual sniping scenarios, then, semi-auto will remain preferable even if you have a select-fire rifle.
The burst- or fully automatic fire modes remain useful for when things don't go according to plan. Perhaps also for when you must get an actual kill, not just cause a casualty, you have a limited time window, and the range is quite short, or other such special cases.
Or when you're playing Shadowrun.
That too. I was going to dig up a thread where ARs, LMGs and MMGs were discussed as the bestest sniper weapons ever -- firing 6+ round bursts doing 15D+ damage at +2 to dodge with no modifiers from recoil isn't too shabby. But I'm now thinking that was in the old forums.
In the message above, however, I was just replying to mfb, who was also apparently discussing logic instead of the rules.
In the message above, however, I was just replying to mfb, who was also apparently discussing logic instead of the rules.
Well, yeah. I was just listing "or when you're playing Shadowrun" as one of those limited, special, cases you were talking about.
| QUOTE (Johnson) |
| BTW the Drakonov is the prefered Sniper rifle in IRAQ at the moment used by NATO and UN to and Some US Security forces. Y Because it breaches most 7,62 rounds succefully, being the predicessor of the AK47 with breaches all 7,62 Assault rifle and rifle rounds. |
So... You had a "sniper course" in the military, and you think the AK-47 could chamber any and all 7.62 rounds, and don't know how to spell Dragunov?
Were you also a Navy SEAL, by any chance?
From the SEAL's South Africa division? 
~J
~J
That'd be SEAL Team 2 of the 2nd NAVSPECWARGRU, based in Little Creek, VA. It trains extensively in (Central/Southern) Africa, that being it's Area of Operations. And yes I know that's not what you meant.
It's very much possible to go through a short stint in a military without learning a damn thing about guns. 80% of Finnish males over the age of 23 have spent 6+ months in the military, and I'm sure up to 10% of them think that there's only one 7.62mm caliber, and up to 20% think you can chamber most/all in an AK-47.
It's very much possible to go through a short stint in a military without learning a damn thing about guns. 80% of Finnish males over the age of 23 have spent 6+ months in the military, and I'm sure up to 10% of them think that there's only one 7.62mm caliber, and up to 20% think you can chamber most/all in an AK-47.
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| From the SEAL's South Africa division? ~J |
It doesn't matter. Fully 90% of any former military personnel posting on gaming-relarted message boards were members of the Navy SEALS. Of the remaining 10%, 90% were either in the Rangers or the Marines.
And what about the people who were physicists doing classified research for the NSA?
~J
~J
Well, those guys can't mention it, of course!
I'm sorry, you've violated section 253 paragraph 519 of the Patriot Act. Please remain at your computer, some nice tailors will be coming soon to fit you with a new jacket with fashionably long sleeves. 
1) It's USAPATRIOT.
2) You're not cleared to know about fashionably long sleeves, citizen. *Zap zap zap*
~J
2) You're not cleared to know about fashionably long sleeves, citizen. *Zap zap zap*
~J
Lenny: "Hey Bruce, what's got six holes in it and sells secrets to the Commies?"
Bruce: "I don't know, what's got six holes in it and sells secrets to the Commies?"
Lenny: zapzapzapzapzapzap
Bruce: bleedbleedbleedbleedbleedbleed
Bruce: "I don't know, what's got six holes in it and sells secrets to the Commies?"
Lenny: zapzapzapzapzapzap
Bruce: bleedbleedbleedbleedbleedbleed
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