Full Version: Riggers in SR4
| QUOTE |
| You can't have both wired reflexes and a VCR,... |
No, no, no. You can't have a VCR and Boosted, not wired.
| QUOTE (Kanada Ten) | ||
Beyond cost and the fact the system cannot be shared, it doesn't really matter. If the intruder can wipe out the original rigger, it does no good to have more since he or she will likely do the same to them. The fact is you want your all security personnel to have the ability to interact with the system directly, and not rely on one person's implant to do so. Creating a false simsense feed in a CCSS system should be a simple affair. We know a rigger can control the entire system from a fraggin' broken maglock, so the whole system must carry simsense, and rigger on rigger combat shows such simsense can be damaging. Throw a spike into the system and it is effectively locked out. |
Now that I have my books back... Let me prove that you can have multiple riggers in one CCSS.
R3R pg 50, Step 4, Multiple Rigger Networks
"If a CCSS is designed to incorporate multiple riggers (see p. 42), an intruder fights one of the security riggers at a time (the one in the captain's chair). Once that security rigger is defeated, another security rigger can attempt to wrestle control away from the intruder, using the same rigger combat rules."
R3R pg 42, Multiple Rigger Networks
"Very large remote-control networks, such as those found on ships or fixed-site facilities, may be too complex for a single rigger to control. Additionally, teams of multiple riggers may work together to improve performace."
There ya go, you can have multiple riggers, easily. No extra cost (other than paying the other riggers) and they can easily jump into multiple cameras/drones/turrets/etc while the captains chair rigger keeps an overview of everything, as well as helping keep the system in control of the riggers as opposed to control of the intruders.
Does anyone know of a working link to Jon Stezo's article From TSS #6 titled "The Man-Machine Interface?" While it's not strictly canon, it is what the guy who wrote the book on riggers had in mind for how the Control Rig actually does it's thing, while he was writing the book on riggers. I've still got a copy of it on my hard drive, somewhere, but it'd be nice to have a link for it during these "How is SR4 going to screw my rigger?" discussions.
[Edit: saw this post after I made mine, and wanted to reply without making a second post]
[Edit: saw this post after I made mine, and wanted to reply without making a second post]
| QUOTE (Tarantula) |
| Let me prove that you can have multiple riggers in one CCSS. |
That's all well and good, but it still doesn't address the issue of "If the runners have hooked up their "BTL Dongle of Security Rigger Doom" [tm] to the CCSS system, and already neutralized Security Rigger #1, how does the next guy stand any better of a chance, does it?
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| Because it doesn't make much sense. There aren't subsystems that do complete tasks by themselves. |
not if the sub-VCR cyberware goes about the same tasks in a different manner. the VCR, if i had to make a wild guess that just happens to dovetail nicely with my proposal, could easily act as a new lobe for the brain, integrating functionality that the brain simply isn't wired for. the sub-VCR cyberware, on the other hand, could selectively expand or alter existing functions of the brain in order to achieve the same effects. the reason it hasn't been introduced until now is that the possible interactions of brain and vehicle hadn't yet been fully explored.
| QUOTE (RunnerPaul) |
| "BTL Dongle of Security Rigger Doom" [tm] |
that's only viable if you design a BTL that uses the MSST protocol instead of ASIST. and in order to do that, you'd have to basically invent a whole new machine to create the MSST BTL, since ASIST and MSST are apparently similar to aircraft and anti-aircraft: when combined, they create a huge explosion that wipes both entities from existence.
i am ten double-posting ninjas.
| QUOTE (RunnerPaul) |
| That's all well and good, but it still doesn't address the issue of "If the runners have hooked up their "BTL Dongle of Security Rigger Doom" [tm] to the CCSS system, and already neutralized Security Rigger #1, how does the next guy stand any better of a chance, does it? |
So your basic tenant is that people should not even try to put up a resistance. If Runner X dispatches Guard Y, whether by skill or by luck, then all future Guards are meaningless opposition and shouldn't be bothered with.
Oooookay. Gotcha.
| QUOTE (RunnerPaul) | ||
That's all well and good, but it still doesn't address the issue of "If the runners have hooked up their "BTL Dongle of Security Rigger Doom" [tm] to the CCSS system, and already neutralized Security Rigger #1, how does the next guy stand any better of a chance, does it? |
Alright, heres my explanation of why a BTL dongle of doom wouldn't work. "Individual sensor triggers, such as a CCSS-rigged door being opened and closed or unidentified personal moving through a corridor, register as tactile sensations on the riggers skin." R3R, pg 46, Perception within a CCSS. Now then, if you plug your BTL in, now one spot on his left elbow feels whatever your BTL is giving it, instead of normal open/close door sensations, this now tells the sec rigger, hey, someones breaking your door over there. So he then dispatches whatever to take care of it. Unless you could transmit it through every sensor the building has, it wouldn't do much, because of how downsized individual components are.
| QUOTE |
| Now then, if you plug your BTL in, now one spot on his left elbow feels whatever your BTL is giving it, instead of normal open/close door sensations, this now tells the sec rigger, hey, someones breaking your door over there. So he then dispatches whatever to take care of it. Unless you could transmit it through every sensor the building has, it wouldn't do much, because of how downsized individual components are. |
Bulldrek as that would be the same for an intruding rigger. Why could one affect the secuirty rigger's brain and not another?
| QUOTE |
| So your basic tenant is that people should not even try to put up a resistance. |
No, what I'm saying is that putting all the secuirty in the hands of one (or two) highly specilized people and leaving the network open is moronic. It'd be like having 50 guards and only one (or two) that had the skills and gear (which only they can use) do anything.
No, it isn't, because the intruding rigger can actually interface with the entire system, where as a BTL would be sending its BTL sensory data from that output point, which the system puts under his left elbow for feeling.The intruding rigger can actually interface with the system, because its made to be able to.
"Hardening, defensive programs, and intrusion countermeasures have no effect on this combat, as rigged systems operate through hardware rather than software. The two riggers use hardware to attack each other and inflict real damage on one another."
Thus, your BTL is unable to do any real damage because it is software, not hardware.
How does having a CCSS "leave the network open"? Its a closed circuit, you don't even need a matrix host to have a CCSS system in place. What network are you leaving open and how? Being able to direct the platoons of guards to intercept and do the most damage to the intruders is quite useful. Who said CCSS couldn't integrate into normal security guard procedures as well? You seem to make the assumption that if someone has a CCSS system installed, the only thing they have for security is that and that alone. CCSS is an upgrade on top of regular security. You have at least one rigger (or more, I'd go with 3) at any one time plugged in, who is able to order the security guards around to their maximum effectiveness, while the other 2 riggers can jump into turrets to fire better, cameras for better perception, and various sub-systems to micro-manage while leaving the captain on overwatch. You don't fire all your security guards because you got some biometric locks. Why would you if you got a CCSS?
"Hardening, defensive programs, and intrusion countermeasures have no effect on this combat, as rigged systems operate through hardware rather than software. The two riggers use hardware to attack each other and inflict real damage on one another."
Thus, your BTL is unable to do any real damage because it is software, not hardware.
How does having a CCSS "leave the network open"? Its a closed circuit, you don't even need a matrix host to have a CCSS system in place. What network are you leaving open and how? Being able to direct the platoons of guards to intercept and do the most damage to the intruders is quite useful. Who said CCSS couldn't integrate into normal security guard procedures as well? You seem to make the assumption that if someone has a CCSS system installed, the only thing they have for security is that and that alone. CCSS is an upgrade on top of regular security. You have at least one rigger (or more, I'd go with 3) at any one time plugged in, who is able to order the security guards around to their maximum effectiveness, while the other 2 riggers can jump into turrets to fire better, cameras for better perception, and various sub-systems to micro-manage while leaving the captain on overwatch. You don't fire all your security guards because you got some biometric locks. Why would you if you got a CCSS?
| QUOTE (Kanada Ten @ Mar 27 2005, 01:11 PM) | ||
No, what I'm saying is that putting all the secuirty in the hands of one (or two) highly specilized people and leaving the network open is moronic. It'd be like having 50 guards and only one (or two) that had the skills and gear (which only they can use) do anything. |
I'm not even going to touch the BTL thing...
As to CCSS and rigging. I look at is as a wholly natural extension of what places with security issues do with their security now. Think about recent movies with casinos in them or even the docudramas and documentaries. They have cameras all over the floor looking at everyone from a central command center where several security specialists look at the monitors all day long, looking for cheaters and crooks. When they see something go down, they sic the physical security staff on them. But hell, Wal-Mart has the same thing... Nobody here thinks those black globes are up in the rafters for decoration, right? I dare say if you've been on a run where the CCSS was easy to get into, the GM involved didn't understand what should be undertaken to tap into a CCSS. You either have to get into the CCSS command center before jacking in OR splicing in with a dataline tap... Either scenario is fraught with danger and the likelihood of the Security Rigger being tipped to what's going on before anything happens. I scoff at the notion that a CCSS network would be left accessible outside the command center, which for all intents and purposes would be constructed like a safe room.
Actually, in most places they are there for decoration. Monitoring the cameras is expensive, and the knowledge that they're there is enough of a deterrent to most people to be worth it anyway.
But that doesn't damage your example.
~J
But that doesn't damage your example.
~J
Just an aside type of thing. I see Multiple riggers in a CCSS kind of like the white room in Reloaded as the ship aproaches scion. Door control (Rigger 1) asks for standown of arms from Rigger 2, but on the off chance someone might of inflitrated the CCSS they still used an APU at the door for additional protection.
But on topic, i feel that the lines between the two should be removed. You have the one Achetype lets call it an Adept. Due to the different "things" that are avilable to an Adept you get different types.. Warrior Adepts, Invisable Adepts...... Hopefully you get the idea.
But on topic, i feel that the lines between the two should be removed. You have the one Achetype lets call it an Adept. Due to the different "things" that are avilable to an Adept you get different types.. Warrior Adepts, Invisable Adepts...... Hopefully you get the idea.
| QUOTE (Shockwave_IIc) |
| But on topic, i feel that the lines between the two should be removed. You have the one Achetype lets call it an Adept. Due to the different "things" that are avilable to an Adept you get different types.. Warrior Adepts, Invisable Adepts...... Hopefully you get the idea. |
I agree. Bring on the Hacker!
Only that the 'adept' in this case would have to either invest heavily in essence into cyber for the way of (the archetype formerly known as rigger), and would have to buy only a datajack for the way of the "hacker/decker/netrunner". They'd still be very different, unless FanPro decides to ditch the VCR and it's boni in favour of some wireless matrix gadget all hackers need (GitS' cyberbrain comes to mind) whcih will double as a VCR according to a program you run on it or something to that effect. That'd be stupid, in my most humble opinion, but then, yes, we'd have unified those archetypes, and all you "way of" fans could have a new line of adepts.
Unless that happens, however, the archetypes are still quite different.
Unless that happens, however, the archetypes are still quite different.
| QUOTE (hermit) |
| They'd still be very different, unless FanPro decides to ditch the VCR and it's boni in favour of some wireless matrix gadget all hackers need (GitS' cyberbrain comes to mind) whcih will double as a VCR according to a program you run on it or something to that effect. |
That's the crux of what a lot of us are afraid may happen to Riggers under the hypothetical "Decker + Rigger = Hacker" scenario.
I really hope the next nugget of info they put up on the website concretely addresses the rigger issue one way or another, just so it can end the speculation.
Yeah. As a longtime rigger player (since 1994), I'd hate to see my main character be wasted like that. Riggers still should be something other than "deckers with cars" in the new system. I don't give jack about rules, they can trat drones, AKs and Ice (and NPCs) similarily in every respect, but I want my VCR, I want my boni that come with it, and I don't want to be matrix dependent for drone rigging either, because that way, every little AOL kid could fuck with my Steel Lynx, and I want nothing of that,. ASIST and MSST protocols are different for a reason, let's keep them that way.
Riggers, deckers, deckers, riggers...
You know, the only time I've seen deckers or riggers played, they usually did both. They may have started out more specialised in one area, but time, karma and money are great equalisers
You know, the only time I've seen deckers or riggers played, they usually did both. They may have started out more specialised in one area, but time, karma and money are great equalisers
You have no idea how much money a good drone rigger needs for upkeep ... there's none left for a decent cyberdeck, let alone programs.
This probably won't please you then. Taken from the FAQ on the RSS feed:
| QUOTE |
| Q. Will riggers be combined with deckers/hackers? A. Yes, we are removing the distinction between them. This does not mean riggers will go away — there will still be hackers who specialize in drones, vehicle operations, or security systems. But the protocols, technology, and game mechanics behind them will be the same. |
Yeah, read it. Woopiedoo! I guess I should start playing only shapeshifter shamans and street sams like everyone else. Or maybe Adepts. They seem to make everyone play an adept these days.
You're right. That doesn't please me at all.
You're right. That doesn't please me at all.
It will make rigger and decker characters less "special". But it may make individual characters more special, because simply being able to drive a vehicle or pilot a drone doesn´t make you special; doing it well does. They will probably make it so it requires more skills in order to be good at all these things, so there will still be characters that are computer hackers and characters that are vehicle hackers, and so forth. In my view, they are removing the artificial balancers that criss cross the current rules. The way the hardware that allows decking and rigging is extremely expensive , while the combat skills are harder to be good at, while magicans are required to give up the highest priority. Why not simply let stuff have a cost that seems appropriate in karma or money and leave it at that? Let characteres be good at any combination of things. If they make the rules more streamlined they will be able to do this. If the rules are the same for everything you may do, you can have the same costs and require the same amount of skill for the same advantages, no matter if they´re magical or technological.
Beat the Riggers into a bloody pulp! 
Seriously, though, while I like the basic idea, I find the archetype to be terribly annoying. The current rules allow a well-designed rigger to outfight any mundane, do a fair bit of sneaking around, excel at information gathering, drive like mad, and, if he has enough money, deck.
My big hope is that the new rules will make the combat-specialist archetypes actually be the best at combat, taking that title away from the rigger with a VCR3 and a Steel Lynx. And get rid of the obscenity that is the Control Pool...
Seriously, though, while I like the basic idea, I find the archetype to be terribly annoying. The current rules allow a well-designed rigger to outfight any mundane, do a fair bit of sneaking around, excel at information gathering, drive like mad, and, if he has enough money, deck.
My big hope is that the new rules will make the combat-specialist archetypes actually be the best at combat, taking that title away from the rigger with a VCR3 and a Steel Lynx. And get rid of the obscenity that is the Control Pool...
I dunno, but changing the advantage of a rigger character (basically, a VCR acts like wired when jacked in, which is one hell of a bonus, especially with control pool coming in, and the reduction of all driving related tests by VCR level * 2) to the 'advantage' of a vehicle hacker (though apparently, 'hacker is supposed to relate to deckers and riggers as 'awakened' relates to all kinds of mages, so I guess the term isn't gone entirely) who'd, by your system, have cars at 10 instead of 2 or 3, is pretty senseless. The whole point of a rigger type character was that he was able, at a great cost in money and essence, to drive any vehicle better than anyone not rigger-cybered. Much like a street sam is able to better, faster and more efficiently shoot people than pretty much anyone not having his implants (wired, spurs, smartlink).
Of course, I like the modular way shadowrun works as much as anyone. You can make combined-task characters easily with it. But once you choose something you want to be good in, you get significant boni in it by choosing special implants and whatnots. This goes beyond having some sort of skill at high levels. No character, no matter whether he has pistols 25, will be able to shoot before a heavily cybered street sam. That makes a pistols 25 person without wired less effectiove. Same with vehicles. You can have cars at 30, and be able to do all kinds of crazy stunts, all right. But a rigger can do that with much greater ease, and on top of that, much faster, than anyone not cybered.
Of course, I like the modular way shadowrun works as much as anyone. You can make combined-task characters easily with it. But once you choose something you want to be good in, you get significant boni in it by choosing special implants and whatnots. This goes beyond having some sort of skill at high levels. No character, no matter whether he has pistols 25, will be able to shoot before a heavily cybered street sam. That makes a pistols 25 person without wired less effectiove. Same with vehicles. You can have cars at 30, and be able to do all kinds of crazy stunts, all right. But a rigger can do that with much greater ease, and on top of that, much faster, than anyone not cybered.
| QUOTE |
| My big hope is that the new rules will make the combat-specialist archetypes actually be the best at combat, taking that title away from the rigger with a VCR3 and a Steel Lynx. And get rid of the obscenity that is the Control Pool... |
Envious of someone with a VCR3 and a steel lynx? The Guardian is even worse, I hear (and more versatile cocnering terrain too).
However, get yourself a mag of AV ammo, a decent sam who's good with his gun, and see who's better.
No honestly, I don't really see any reason to take away the control pool, any more than taking away the combat pool (which, using current rules, allows any character to Matrix-dodge bullets, and don't tell me this is anything like realistic!). If they did,. that'd indeed create imbalance between riggers and sams, whcih would be completely unnescessary.
| QUOTE (hermit @ Mar 28 2005, 11:35 AM) |
| Much like a street sam is able to better, faster and more efficiently shoot people than pretty much anyone not having his implants (wired, spurs, smartlink). (...) No character, no matter whether he has pistols 25, will be able to shoot before a heavily cybered street sam. |
I'll agree with the "more efficiently" part. Sams find it easy to switch weapons and ammunition to suit a situation, or to switch to non-lethal force.
A rigger can do everything else you listed a lot better. Sensor Enhanced Gunnery + Using Control Pool to dodge instead of Combat Pool, allowing the latter to be used only for shooting = The sam crying in the corner.
And VCRs are NOT expensive - they use as much Essence as wired reflexes of the same level, while costing a hell of a lot less. VCR1 and VCR2 are dirt cheap for what they do, and the price difference between VCR3 and WR3 means that while most dedicated riggers can afford the former at chargen, virtually no sam can afford the latter, ever, unless he happes to get millions of
and access to a beta or delta clinic. (or is content with having no cyber besides WR3 and a smartlink)
| QUOTE (hermit @ Mar 28 2005, 11:35 AM) |
| Envious of someone with a VCR3 and a steel lynx? The Guardian is even worse, I hear (and more versatile cocnering terrain too). However, get yourself a mag of AV ammo, a decent sam who's good with his gun, and see who's better. No honestly, I don't really see any reason to take away the control pool, any more than taking away the combat pool (which, using current rules, allows any character to Matrix-dodge bullets, and don't tell me this is anything like realistic!). If they did,. that'd indeed create imbalance between riggers and sams, whcih would be completely unnescessary. |
See my previous post... Who's better? The rigger with a VCR3 is going to beat a typical sam on initiative 90% of the time, then shoot him with a heavily-stabilized LMG using enough combat pool to kill the sam in one shot.
Which is one of the reasons for axing control pool - it lets the rigger blow all of his combat pool on killing stuff and still be able to dodge attacks. (at a lower TN than any other character, to boot)
Edit: Although, to be fair, a rigger can have trouble if faced with a high-signature target and reduced to using manual gunnery with all the movement modifiers factored in, but it's not really enough of a mitigating factor.
If they reduce the gap between riggers and non-riggers in term of ability to drive fast in SR4, I'd be happy. Hey, the rigger can control turrets while driving all he wants, and he should have an edge over the unrigged as far as driving fast, but it shouldn't be -6 to TN and tons of control pool dice for a VCR 3 as it stands.
Right now, in SR, I could have in one corner Michael Schumacher's spiritual heir driving a Ferrari with a skill of 12. In the other corner, I have average joe rigger with a VCR of 3, driving the same car and with only a skill of 4. They are driving a circuit with a TN modifier that brings the DC for maneuver score at 6. Michael jr will have on average 2 sucesses while Joe Rigger using control pool will roll 6 or 7 (because TN gets dropped back to 2).
Yet, how much advantage Joe rigger has on Michael Jr. ? A top notch driver is already pushing his car pretty darn close to the limit. A F1 driver is always making his turns almost at the absolute limit beyond which either the car loses adherence and crashes or at the point where the driver would lose consciousness because of the g-forces. A VCR can help you push the car just a bit farther than that, push it exactly at the point where the car would lose adherence. AFAIK, it can't help you with g-forces. All things considered, it would net you maybe a second per laps over a driver of equivalent skill. Still not -6 to TN + control pool.
I guess the main problem with the VCR is that it kills most non-rigger PCs any interest in acquiring vehicle skill. Why invest in the Car skill and on a nice sportscar when you know a Rigger could catch up with you on a lawnmower? The difference in performace is just too extreme. VCR already allows drone as well as control of weaponry while driving at breakneck speed, it doesn't also need to allow the driver to break the laws of physics.
Right now, in SR, I could have in one corner Michael Schumacher's spiritual heir driving a Ferrari with a skill of 12. In the other corner, I have average joe rigger with a VCR of 3, driving the same car and with only a skill of 4. They are driving a circuit with a TN modifier that brings the DC for maneuver score at 6. Michael jr will have on average 2 sucesses while Joe Rigger using control pool will roll 6 or 7 (because TN gets dropped back to 2).
Yet, how much advantage Joe rigger has on Michael Jr. ? A top notch driver is already pushing his car pretty darn close to the limit. A F1 driver is always making his turns almost at the absolute limit beyond which either the car loses adherence and crashes or at the point where the driver would lose consciousness because of the g-forces. A VCR can help you push the car just a bit farther than that, push it exactly at the point where the car would lose adherence. AFAIK, it can't help you with g-forces. All things considered, it would net you maybe a second per laps over a driver of equivalent skill. Still not -6 to TN + control pool.
I guess the main problem with the VCR is that it kills most non-rigger PCs any interest in acquiring vehicle skill. Why invest in the Car skill and on a nice sportscar when you know a Rigger could catch up with you on a lawnmower? The difference in performace is just too extreme. VCR already allows drone as well as control of weaponry while driving at breakneck speed, it doesn't also need to allow the driver to break the laws of physics.
| QUOTE |
| See my previous post... Who's better? The rigger with a VCR3 is going to beat a typical sam on initiative 90% of the time, then shoot him with a heavily-stabilized LMG using enough combat pool to kill the sam in one shot. |
Ummm ... combat pool? Anyway, I dom play a Rigger with VCR2 (and level 6reaction enhancers), and she's pretty damn fast, but a maxed out speedsam (we hve one in our group) usually beats her by several points. The sam has got that boosted 2/snaptic/reaction enhancers combo talked about later. Granted, he is maxed out and my character isn't.
Here're the stats:
Sam: Initiative 19 + 5 W (Wired 2, Reaction Enhancer 6, Synaptic 2, enhanced atriculation, cerebral booster, he also is a Night One). Average initiative: 34 (!!!), though with adrenaline rush, this can surge to levels that are just ... wow. Did I mention his Quick Shot edge?
My rigger: 18 + 3W6, average initiative: 27 (and no adrenaline rush either). In effect, this makes my character the "big guns" person, while the fastest streetsam you never saw is more geared towards infiltration and stealth (and very fast kills).
I don't see an imbalance. Sure, he might have trouble hurting a steel lynx, and the lynx will dodge his first attack. But he has at LEAST four, possibly five to six, actions each turn! No way the control pool is gonna last that long.
| QUOTE |
| I guess the main problem with the VCR is that it kills most non-rigger PCs any interest in acquiring vehicle skill. Why invest in the Car skill and on a nice sportscar when you know a Rigger could catch up with you on a lawnmower? The difference in performace is just too extreme. VCR already allows drone as well as control of weaponry will driving at breakneck speed, it doesn't also need to allow the driver to break the laws of physics. |
And a maxed out sam can shoot a master pistolero with pistols 50 five tiems before he has even drawn his weapon (see above example). Does that mean reaction enhancements have to be tuned down, too?
yes, but wired reflexes aren't required to be a combat-type character. VCR is required to be any sort of rigger. moreover, if the pistolero does manage to get a shot off on the sam (stranger things have happened), he'll likely injure the sam badly, if not kill him outright. that can't occur at all, in a rigger-vs-nonrigger competition.
| QUOTE |
| yes, but wired reflexes aren't required to be a combat-type character. VCR is required to be any sort of rigger. |
Why no, if you don't *like* boni, yu can always make someone who DNI-drives vehicles just using a datajack, his -1 to all TN, and +1 to Reaction. VCR 0, if you will. And besides, a combat character without any kind of initiative and reaction boost? I haven't, ever, encountered any such character. If you know someone who plays a *combat* character like that, not a face, electronics specialist, or medic, or whatever, please scan the sheet and email me the pic. I'd be interested in how to make this character work.
| QUOTE |
| moreover, if the pistolero does manage to get a shot off on the sam (stranger things have happened), he'll likely injure the sam badly, if not kill him outright. that can't occur at all, in a rigger-vs-nonrigger competition. |
Given a high gun skill and AV, it can well happen. The thing is that, if any vehicle is hit with AV and a good bunch of successes, chances are it's gonna instantly die.
| QUOTE (hermit @ Mar 28 2005, 12:20 PM) |
| And a maxed out sam can shoot a master pistolero with pistols 50 five tiems before he has even drawn his weapon (see above example). Does that mean reaction enhancements have to be tuned down, too? |
It's not about shooting first, it's about shooting last. I can see plenty of situations in which master Pistolero wins.
Beside, your example is flawed and biased as a counter argument to my position. It's not the initiative speed of the rigger I don't like, it's his aboslute dominance of vehicle pursuits situations. His up to -6 to TN for maneuver and monopoly of a dice pool in these situations.
So a more accurate comparison would be, if Wired Reflex granted initiative bonus, -2 per level to TN for shooting and that you couldn't have a combat pool without having wired reflexes. If so, then yes, you would have to tone down wired reflexes.
| QUOTE |
| So a more accurate comparison would be, if Wired Reflex granted initiative bonus, -2 per level to TN for shooting and that you couldn't have a combat pool without having wired reflexes. |
You cannot have a combat pool while rigging. Pools are swapped. Also, you can perfectly enter a vehicle chase without VCR against three riggers. You can also pick a firefight with three cybered Wired 3 sammies. You're gonna lose big time either way.
A sam can modify his weapon and eyes to the point where he gets an effective -6 too. Even if it will be boni that are situation related - recoil compensation, TN modification, ect, it adds up. Also, keep in mind a sammy is much more versatile and can go into a number of places an armoured van cannot. Vehicle chases are a Rigger's domain, they deserve to be better than anyone else in that specific domain. They suck at infiltrating, though, they suck in firefights if not jacked into something, and they usually don't do well as faces or something else either. A sam is a more broad character who happens to never have a chance at getting the same TN boni a rigger gets when doing his thing in a much more specialised domain. Kinda makes sense, don't you think?
| QUOTE (hermit) |
| Given a high gun skill and AV, it can well happen. The thing is that, if any vehicle is hit with AV and a good bunch of successes, chances are it's gonna instantly die. |
nope, not gonna happen. the maneuver score figures heavily into vehicle combat, and riggers get much higher maneuver scores than anybody else. anybody shooting at them from a vehicle gets a +2 or +3 modifier to their shot right off the bat--and that's before you factor in the TN mods for the rigger's insane speed.
| QUOTE (hermit) |
| You cannot have a combat pool while rigging. |
yes, actually, you can. R3 page 25, first sentence under Dice Pools. even better, SR3 page 152, second column, third paragraph, third sentence.
| QUOTE (hermit) |
| Here're the stats: Sam: Initiative 19 + 5 W (Wired 2, Reaction Enhancer 6, Synaptic 2, enhanced atriculation, cerebral booster, he also is a Night One). Average initiative: 34 (!!!), though with adrenaline rush, this can surge to levels that are just ... wow. Did I mention his Quick Shot edge? My rigger: 18 + 3W6, average initiative: 27 (and no adrenaline rush either). |
First, i'm going to assume you meant Boosted not wired. Second, Surge doesn't work with Iniative enhancements, it might not be that way in second ed but in third that is fact.
And the maths is off, if going with Quickness 8, Inteliegence 8. You need another 4 points on those stats. If thats the case then this is a Very twinked character. Ie. the kind that doesn't grow into that, but starts very close to that, as to get all that you have to be worst then everybody else for a while. It's the difference between start as a "normal" character and get all the toys you want straight away.
But all thats null and void anyway as once ANY game gets to the level balance breaks down. and since thats what were talking about. The balance of two characters becoming one....
| QUOTE (hermit @ Mar 29 2005, 03:09 AM) |
| Here're the stats: Sam: Initiative 19 + 5 W (Wired 2, Reaction Enhancer 6, Synaptic 2, enhanced atriculation, cerebral booster, he also is a Night One). Average initiative: 34 (!!!), though with adrenaline rush, this can surge to levels that are just ... wow. Did I mention his Quick Shot edge? My rigger: 18 + 3W6, average initiative: 27 (and no adrenaline rush either). In effect, this makes my character the "big guns" person, while the fastest streetsam you never saw is more geared towards infiltration and stealth (and very fast kills). |
So, you're complaining because your friend's heavily house ruled Street Sam can outgun your Rigger? Hmmm ...
Adreneline Rush? Is that like the Adreneline Surge Edge, which is not compatable with any form other of initiative boost?
Quick Shot Edge? What's that?
Wired Relfexes and Synaptic Accelerator? Also incompatable in canon.
[edit] Too many windows open. Shockwave_IIc said it first ... although hermit's math is correct for the house-ruled Sammy. Reaction 8 +1 (EA) +6 (RE) +4 (WR) = 19/ 1d6 + 2d6 (WR) + 2d6 (SA) [/edit]
| QUOTE (hermit) |
| 1 - You cannot have a combat pool while rigging. Pools are swapped. ... 2 - A sam can modify his weapon and eyes to the point where he gets an effective -6 too. Even if it will be boni that are situation related - recoil compensation, TN modification, ect, it adds up. ... 3 - Also, keep in mind a sammy is much more versatile and can go into a number of places an armoured van cannot. ... 4 - Vehicle chases are a Rigger's domain, they deserve to be better than anyone else in that specific domain. |
You're all over the place and I'm not sure you get my point.
1 - So? i only mentionned the combat pool in my example to illustrate my point. My point is still that Rigger are too dominant in a vehicle pursuit. More dominant than wired reflexes make a sam in a fight.
2 - A rigger can modify his vehicle, eyes, gunnery weapon to the same point. Don't confuse the debate, I'm still just talking about VCR and vehicle pursuit, don't drag in additional cyberware into this.
3 - Who cares about where an armored van, a drone or a bipedal mammal can go? Still not the point.
4 - And that's the point. No, vehicle pursuits isn't the exclusive domain of the rigger, just like pulling a trigger isn't the exclusive domain of the street sam. It's the domain of anyone who has to do it at any given moment.
If a runner is going to a meet in his car and suddenly a bad guy rigger is on his tails, are you gonna say to the runner : "Sorry man, it's not your domain. Riggers have an exclusive agreement with the GM in the sky that they'll win any given pursuit against non rigger. There's nothing you can do about it so you better pull over and run into that building, you'll have better odds of survival. Yes, even though you have car 5 and drive a sport car, even if hiding in that building means 3 cybered company man will rush after you and you are just a decker, it's still better odds."
I'm all for Riggers having the edge in a pursuit, but the current situation is not an edge, it's a foregone conclusion.
| QUOTE |
| Quickness 8, Inteliegence 8 |
I was calculating with maxed out intelligence (9) and maxed out night one speed (12, exceptional attribute edge). And yes, this is a maxed out character, versus a normal, grown rigger. Just wanted to point out how much faster a sam can be, damnit.
| QUOTE |
| So, you're complaining because your friend's heavily house ruled Street Sam can outgun your Rigger? Hmmm ... |
I am NOT complaining, I am only pointing out that sams can be as combat effective as a rigger.
| QUOTE |
| Adreneline Rush? Is that like the Adrebeline Surge Edge, which is not compatable with any form other of initiative boost? Quick Shot Edge? What's that? Wired Relfexes and Synaptic Accelerator? Also incompatable in canon. |
Sorry, on-the-fly translation. Some on Dumpshock don't have the privilege of being native speakers.
| QUOTE |
| If a runner is going to a meet in his car and suddenly a bad guy rigger is on his tails, are you gonna say to the runner : "Sorry man, it's not your domain. Riggers have an exclusive agreement with the GM in the sky that they'll win any given pursuit against non rigger. There's nothing you can do about it so you better pull over and run into that building, you'll have better odds of survival. Yes, even though you have car 5 and drive a sport car, even if hiding in that building means 3 cybered company man will rush after you and you are just a decker, it's still better odds." |
Will you complain the same way if your runner happenns upon a bad guy mage who starts flinging hellfires at him from a faraway but LOS point, maybe even while camouflaged with enhanced invisibility? Will you complain if some decker hacks a character who just jacked in to do some legwork to pieces, because their Fairlight and utilities and skill own your pesky terminal and computer 3? No character will be able to do anything equally well. Riggers are exceptional in vehicle operation. That'S their speciality. Remedy that, and you can kick the whole concept into the can. 5 Essence for nothing isn't worth the effort if you plan to make a haracter that occupies a nieche. Yes, that means your sam has no chance in hell against a well-done rigger in vehicle combat. Just as he has against a dedicated mage or a decker in the Matrix.
| QUOTE (hermit @ Mar 28 2005, 12:09 PM) |
| Ummm ... combat pool? Anyway, I dom play a Rigger with VCR2 (and level 6reaction enhancers), and she's pretty damn fast, but a maxed out speedsam (we hve one in our group) usually beats her by several points. The sam has got that boosted 2/snaptic/reaction enhancers combo talked about later. Granted, he is maxed out and my character isn't. Here're the stats: Sam: Initiative 19 + 5 W (Wired 2, Reaction Enhancer 6, Synaptic 2, enhanced atriculation, cerebral booster, he also is a Night One). Average initiative: 34 (!!!), though with adrenaline rush, this can surge to levels that are just ... wow. Did I mention his Quick Shot edge? My rigger: 18 + 3W6, average initiative: 27 (and no adrenaline rush either). In effect, this makes my character the "big guns" person, while the fastest streetsam you never saw is more geared towards infiltration and stealth (and very fast kills). I don't see an imbalance. Sure, he might have trouble hurting a steel lynx, and the lynx will dodge his first attack. But he has at LEAST four, possibly five to six, actions each turn! No way the control pool is gonna last that long. |
Uh... I had a long reply typed in, but on reflection, I think there's little point in arguing about game balance if you claim to be a long-term rigger player and don't even know some of the basics, like what combat pool applies to, or you think a Night One obscenely twinked out in non-canon ways is a representative street sam.
Edit: And you've missed the point (again) if you think it all comes down to speed, the rigger isn't simply faster, he's better at ranged combat than any sam will ever be, courtesy of (usually) better reaction, extremely low dodge TNs and control pool, stabilized weapons, the ability to specialize in gunnery to the exclusion of other weapon skills, vehicular armor, sensor enhanced gunnery, high TN mods to hit fast-moving targets...
| QUOTE |
| Uh... I had a long reply typed in, but on reflection, I think there's little point in arguing about game balance if you claim to be a long-term rigger player and don't even know some of the basics, like what combat pool applies to, or you think a Night One obscenely twinked out in non-canon ways is a representative street sam. |
Enlighten me. Combat pool can be used while rigging a vehicle? That's new to me.
And the Night One wasn't meant as representative, but to illustrate how fast non-riggers can be.
| QUOTE (hermit) |
| Enlighten me. Combat pool can be used while rigging a vehicle? That's new to me. And the Night One wasn't meant as representative, but to illustrate how fast non-riggers can be. |
See mfb's post for the relevant page numbers, and my edited post for added clarification.
Funny, never noticed that. Guess that comes with a campaign that has houseruled a lot of Rigger rules out. *shrugs*
I am not saying the rigger rules don't need a revision. But I wodner why you should tune down the rigger to the level of a (non-rigger) sam, or maybe an iota above. Again, riggers need to be significantly better at this, as other characters need to be significantly above average in whatever their speciality is. A Rigger's reaction doesn't usually exceed a sam's reaction, if only because there're many more additional boni to be gained by a sam (enhanced atriculation, muscle agumentation, ect) than for a rigger, who can only add reaction enhancements.
I am not saying the rigger rules don't need a revision. But I wodner why you should tune down the rigger to the level of a (non-rigger) sam, or maybe an iota above. Again, riggers need to be significantly better at this, as other characters need to be significantly above average in whatever their speciality is. A Rigger's reaction doesn't usually exceed a sam's reaction, if only because there're many more additional boni to be gained by a sam (enhanced atriculation, muscle agumentation, ect) than for a rigger, who can only add reaction enhancements.
| QUOTE (hermit @ Mar 28 2005, 01:55 PM) |
| 1 - Will you complain the same way if your runner happenns upon a bad guy mage who starts flinging hellfires at him from a faraway but LOS point, maybe even while camouflaged with enhanced invisibility? 2 - Will you complain if some decker hacks a character who just jacked in to do some legwork to pieces, because their Fairlight and utilities and skill own your pesky terminal and computer 3? 3 - No character will be able to do anything equally well. Riggers are exceptional in vehicle operation. That'S their speciality. Remedy that, and you can kick the whole concept into the can. 4 - 5 Essence for nothing isn't worth the effort if you plan to make a haracter that occupies a nieche. Yes, that means your sam has no chance in hell against a well-done rigger in vehicle combat. Just as he has against a dedicated mage or a decker in the Matrix. |
1 - I won't complain, I will try to get out out of the LOS.
2 - I won't complain, I will try to jack out.
OTOH if I'm cruising down the street and a rigger decides to chase me, I will complain. Because it's all the rules let me do. It sure as hell doesn't give me a serious chance of escaping.
3 - I'm not talking about equally well, I'm talking about a fighting chance. About a chance to survive, to get away and fight another day on your terms.
I'm not talking about taking away superiority, I'm talking about taking away supremacy. And not accross the board, just in vehicle pursuit.
4 - First of all, again, my point was always about vehicle pursuit, not combat. Stop bringing examples that have nothing to do with what I'm talking about. I don't care if the sammie can't drive and use a HMG on a mini turret at the same time, I just want him to have a fighting chance to get away if he is a good driver in a good vehicle.
And "not a chance against a dedicated mage or a decker in the Matrix"? What kind of counter examples are these? A starting sam can geek a starting mage (and vice versa), no question asked. Where do you get this "no chance" from? And the decker? Yeah, my street sams spend a lot of time strolling through the matrix with a hot ASIST. They are in terrible danger of getting killed by deckers with black hammer utilities.
OTOH, my street sams spends a lot of time driving vehicles. Like any other citiznes that owns a car, for that matter.As clearly as I can put it, my request for SR4 as far as rigging rules are concerned is this :
I want non-rigger to have a fighting chance of winning a chase against a rigger.
I've seen street sam killed or seriously hurt by security guards. I want to see non-rigger manage to outpace a rigger in a chase from time to time. That's all.
I think the last few posts are a good example of why the system needs streamlining.
| QUOTE (hermit @ Mar 29 2005, 04:55 AM) |
| Sorry, on-the-fly translation. Some on Dumpshock don't have the privilege of being native speakers. |
What 'on-the-fly' translation? You wrote the specifics, which all added up correctly. Therefore you obviously didn't write them incorrectly. A number of them are incompatable according to the rules. You also mentioned an Edge that I cannot find even closely paralleled in canon (Quick Shot), and so I questioned you about it. If you are using unbalancing house rules in your games, you can't really complain when other characters don't measure up.
| QUOTE (hermit @ Mar 28 2005, 02:15 PM) |
| Funny, never noticed that. Guess that comes with a campaign that has houseruled a lot of Rigger rules out. *shrugs* I am not saying the rigger rules don't need a revision. But I wodner why you should tune down the rigger to the level of a (non-rigger) sam, or maybe an iota above. Again, riggers need to be significantly better at this, as other characters need to be significantly above average in whatever their speciality is. A Rigger's reaction doesn't usually exceed a sam's reaction, if only because there're many more additional boni to be gained by a sam (enhanced atriculation, muscle agumentation, ect) than for a rigger, who can only add reaction enhancements. |
I don't want a sam to be better than a rigger at vehicular combat... As long as there are actual vehicles involved, I basically agree with Charon - a fighting chance would be nice.
What I do want is some serious revision of metahuman-sized or smaller drones and how they're treated in the rules, of the control pool mechanic, and of the relative pricing of WR and VCR systems.
| QUOTE |
| What 'on-the-fly' translation? You wrote the specifics, which all added up corrctly. Therefore you obviously didn't write them incorrectly. A number of them are incompatable according to the rules. You also mentioned an Edge that I cannot find even closely paralleled in canon (Quick Shot), and so I questioned you about it. If you are using unbalancing house rules in your games, you can't really complain when other characters don't measure up. |
Was referring to the wired I wrote, and other stuff.
Quick Shot may have been taken from that FanPro magazine or a German book, I am not sure. It's basically an extra action a character can get. Not sure if it wasn't an adept power, though. The point of this character was to be fastest in shooting people. Like I said, I didn't build it, and don't know the edge/power's original name. It was an insane character. I hope I won't ever see him again.
| QUOTE |
| What I do want is some serious revision of metahuman-sized or smaller drones and how they're treated in the rules, of the combat pool mechanic, and of the relative pricing of WR and VCR systems. |
Well, I wholeheartedly agree with drones. I wasn't even aware of the combat pool thing, so I guess I would hardly miss it.
As for WR and VCR, I dunno ... like I said, VCR comes to bear only under special circumstances and is useless otherwise. WR will, realistically, be used much mroe often than a VCR in any campaign, so it warrants a higher price tag, though not as extreme as in canon rules. However, there are other alternatives, like the boosted/synaptic combo, so if you want to have a fast starter character at a reasonable price, both essence-wise and in money, go for that instead of wired, though wired still might be an iota faster.
Sorry, all this talk of wired sammies versus VCR'd riggers has made my head spin - I thought you didn't get the benefit of non-VCR initiative enhancements whilst driving? I was sure that was the case, because I'd house-ruled it that you got your initiative roll divided by two if you were using non-VCR reflexes. If my players should have been getting full init, they're a-gonna lynch me
| QUOTE (DrJest) |
| Sorry, all this talk of wired sammies versus VCR'd riggers has made my head spin - I thought you didn't get the benefit of non-VCR initiative enhancements whilst driving? I was sure that was the case, because I'd house-ruled it that you got your initiative roll divided by two if you were using non-VCR reflexes. If my players should have been getting full init, they're a-gonna lynch me |
You're not wrong.
I was just talking about the way a rigger jumped into a decent drone beats a sam easily when it comes to ranged combat - in part, because of initiative - and complaining about how cheap (compared to "meat" reflex enhacements) VCRs are.
And I was disagreeing and tried to point out how damn fast a meat character can be, and how much faster than a rigger that is. And then it strayed farther and farther off topic.
Hermit:
| QUOTE |
| If you know someone who plays a *combat* character like that, not a face, electronics specialist, or medic, or whatever, please scan the sheet and email me the pic. I'd be interested in how to make this character work. |
A friend of mine recently wanted to make such a character. I told him it would be hard to do but it could work if he relied heavily on attributes. He ended up making a greek minotaur mercenary veteran from the troll wars. Because of no magic or resources he has the best attributes and an edge over other characters when it comes to skills (and he manuvers a sail boat like no other bull in history). In a fire fight he can hold his own by surviving the first shot and having a good aim. He is at a terrible dissadvantage but he is far from useless thanks to the 3:d ed initiative rules. In melee combat he simply kicks ass, and having cyber wouldn´t make him much better at it. And he has a lot more potential for improvement than a samurai character has. People tend to forget that part.
I agree with mmu1 and Charon. Vehicle chases should be an exciting part of a good action game like this for every character, not just the specialist. All characters can participate in combat. Have you actually tried to praticipate in a car chase involving a rigger when you´re not one? It wouldn´t be fun. Why make vehicle combat anything less than fun? In order to keep rigger supremacy?
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