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Meriss
Does tatoo magic exsist in the Sixth World? The ancient cultures that invented tats had some pretty cool beliefs. Is it possible that with the right ingredients you could make magical tats? Would you have to be Awakened to benifit from these tats or what?
Ancient History
Yes, yes. Tattoo magic exists. For SR4, go to Street Magic and read up on Quickening Materials.
Meriss
Could you elaborate for a Broke newb AH?
Ancient History
Tattoo magic is, essentially, a method of making quickened spells that are more difficult to damage or dispel. The spell is quickened to a tattoo (or brand, or ritual scar, etc.) made with quickening materials (ink, tools and the like made from magical reagents) which increase the amount of Karma a magician can sink into the quickened spell. Expensive, but then again such a spell is pretty much permanent once on there.

Naturally, the Yakuza are most famous for using tattoo magic (and skilled spellcaster/tattoo artists are in high demand), but magical traditions worldwide engage in equivalent practices-some might prefer brands or ritual scarring (certain African traditions, for example, would prefer traditional facial scars), others would have a different preference on style and material (Druids would likely prefer woad tattoos, f'r instance).

You can do other things with tattoos too, like use them as a medium to record spell/spirit/focus formulae.
Meriss
Kewl, thanks AH.
bibliophile20
Can nano-tattoos be quickened? And can the quickening be done after the tattoo has been made?
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (bibliophile20)
Can nano-tattoos be quickened? And can the quickening be done after the tattoo has been made?

You don't need a tattoo to quicken things on people. You can use magical quickening materials to increase the difficulty to remove a quickened spell, but you don't have to do that.

That being said, a Nanotatt would be of essentially no assistance in quickening spells. But you could put down some quickening materials and then layer a nanotatt on top of it if you really wanted to.

-Frank
Ancient History
Probably not a nano-tattoo, no. Possibly a previous tattoo if the GM approves (still need to use the quickening materials, though).
mfb
i don't see any reason a nano-tattoo couldn't be quickened. rules don't say anything about what the tattoo ink can't have in it, just what it's got to have in it. as for a previous tattoo... well, you could ink over the existing tattoo with a magical tattoo of the same design, i'd think.
MaxHunter
How about something like quickening materials but for anchoring? I don't remember whether that exists or not...

Cheers,

Max
mfb
what, like a tattoo that's an anchoring focus? kinda neat, i guess. it should be possible--i don't believe there's any rules about what form a focus has to take.

edit: though i'm not certain i'd allow it. seems to tread on the toes of that adept power that allows you to be a sustaining focus.
Ancient History
QUOTE (mfb @ May 4 2007, 03:39 AM)
what, like a tattoo that's an anchoring focus? kinda neat, i guess. it should be possible--i don't believe there's any rules about what form a focus has to take.

Small correction: the rules for telesma state it has to be an inanimate object.

Since Quickening is a prerequisite for Anchoring and the processes of creating a quickened and anchored spell are similar, you could make a case for Anchoring materials (or extending Quickening materials for such a use). However, given that anchoring already possesses a specific metamagic enchantment, I would probably rule against it in my games.

If some GMs do approve of "Anchoring Materials," I would remind them that they should follow the same restrictions as using Quickening materials, and would not be combinable with anchoring foci.
mfb
eh. the tattoo ink, i think it can be argued, is inanimate. perhaps you'd have to enchant the ink first, i dunno. like i said, i'm pretty sure i wouldn't allow it, but i think if someone wanted to, the rules are vague enough that they wouldn't really need a houserule.
Crakkerjakk
So since y'all are on the quickened tattoo thing, question one of my players threw at me. One of my players wants to know if he gets a quickened tattoo, and it gets dispelled, could he re-quicken a spell to it without paying more money for quickening materials again. I'm kind of thinking no, since it seems like a work around, and also thinking that if someone does successfully dispel a tattoo quickened spell, it might do some damage as the tattoo burns off or something. Call it a box of unresistable physical, maybe.

What's y'all take?
Ancient History
Dispelling the spell would not cause any physical damage to the tattoo (or the player), but it would destroy the enchantment. I'd rule that he'd need additional quickening materials to re-quicken the tattoo as before.
mfb
i could go either way. on the one hand, i think the tattoo is supposed to be a serious investment. on the other, it is a serious investment--it costs as much as or more than a good piece of cyber. i'd certainly rather not see the tattoo "wasted", especially since it eats up permanent space on the body.

i think what i'd do is this: if the quickened spell is dispelled, the tattoo cannot be reused. however, since it's no longer a quickened spell, the skin area it covers is "refunded"--you can put a new quickened tattoo over the old one.
Ancient History
QUOTE (mfb)
it eats up permanent space on the body.

This is actually a misconception; under the current rules there is no limit to the number of quickened spells a character can be subject to at one time, and there are no requirements on the size of the tattoo/ritual scar/brand.
knasser
This reminds me of Mr. Dark in Something Wicked This Way Comes. He had symbolic tattoos of those he had "claimed" all over his body.

Now if there were just some way to quicken a Control Mind spell, cast on a specific victim, then you could reproduce the character in Shadowrun. One of my favourite villains of any book I've read.
nathanross
Okay, someone brought this up before, but no one has yet answered it.

Do the tattoo artist and the mage casting the quickened spell have to be the same?

I have gone back through Magic in the Shadows to review the original rules (Haven't checked Grimore or earlier edition magic rules), but havent been able to find anything that clarifies this. It merely states the rules for the creation of the tattoo, after which you can quicken the spell to.

Why I am asking is that while I have the necissary Karma to Quicken the spell, I do not know how much it would cost for another mage's Karma. Does anyone have a rate on this? The book sucks in this regard (like mages wouldn't sell a service for the right price to a mundane), and it fails to address some of the costs and availabilities of Magic on the streets, not just the cost of materials for mages, but the costs of mage services, etc.

Anyways, shoot some prices my way.
knasser
QUOTE (nathanross)
Okay, someone brought this up before, but no one has yet answered it.

Do the tattoo artist and the mage casting the quickened spell have to be the same?

I have gone back through Magic in the Shadows to review the original rules (Haven't checked Grimore or earlier edition magic rules), but havent been able to find anything that clarifies this. It merely states the rules for the creation of the tattoo, after which you can quicken the spell to.

Why I am asking is that while I have the necissary Karma to Quicken the spell, I do not know how much it would cost for another mage's Karma. Does anyone have a rate on this? The book sucks in this regard (like mages wouldn't sell a service for the right price to a mundane), and it fails to address some of the costs and availabilities of Magic on the streets, not just the cost of materials for mages, but the costs of mage services, etc.

Anyways, shoot some prices my way.


There's a dwarf tattoo artist in Runner Havens who is a mage and does the quickened spells himself, but I think most GMs would probably allow a mage to do have someone else do the actual tattooing under the mage's supervision. It doesn't affect game balance, anyway.
Ancient History
QUOTE (nathanross)
Okay, someone brought this up before, but no one has yet answered it.

Do the tattoo artist and the mage casting the quickened spell have to be the same?

No.

QUOTE
Why I am asking is that while I have the necissary Karma to Quicken the spell, I do not know how much it would cost for another mage's Karma. Does anyone have a rate on this? The book sucks in this regard (like mages wouldn't sell a service for the right price to a mundane), and it fails to address some of the costs and availabilities of Magic on the streets, not just the cost of materials for mages, but the costs of mage services, etc.

Anyways, shoot some prices my way.

Ah, the perennial question: how much for an intangible? The answer: whatever the market will bear. At the very least, I'd suggest 3d6 x 100 nuyen.gif per point of karma spent - and that's just for the spell. You'd also have to cover costs for the materials and the tattooing.
nathanross
3d6x100? That seems pretty cheap, and I would gladly pay only 18,000 for the 10karma required to quicken Increase Intuition force 5.

How about the labor for the tattoo? In SR3 it was treated like a ritual and had some tests the tattooo artist had to make. Seems they got rid of that as well as the surface area rules (how convenient biggrin.gif ). What would you charge now? The rating 5 materials only cost 2,500 nuyen.
mfb
QUOTE (Ancient History)
This is actually a misconception; under the current rules there is no limit to the number of quickened spells a character can be subject to at one time, and there are no requirements on the size of the tattoo/ritual scar/brand.

hm. i was never really happy with the skin-coverage limit... but i'm not sure no limit is a good solution, either.

QUOTE (nathanross)
Why I am asking is that while I have the necissary Karma to Quicken the spell, I do not know how much it would cost for another mage's Karma. Does anyone have a rate on this? The book sucks in this regard (like mages wouldn't sell a service for the right price to a mundane), and it fails to address some of the costs and availabilities of Magic on the streets, not just the cost of materials for mages, but the costs of mage services, etc.

in MitS, it was 5k/point.
Ancient History
QUOTE (nathanross)
3d6x100? That seems pretty cheap, and I would gladly pay only 18,000 for the 10karma required to quicken Increase Intuition force 5.

How about the labor for the tattoo? In SR3 it was treated like a ritual and had some tests the tattooo artist had to make. Seems they got rid of that as well as the surface area rules (how convenient biggrin.gif ). What would you charge now? The rating 5 materials only cost 2,500 nuyen.

Well, if you're going to bother using quickening materials, you'd really want to pay for 15 Karma to get the most out of it.

Anyway, that's for the Karma (actually based on the old cash-for-karma rule); the materials actually cost 5,000 nuyen.gif (re: gear tables in the back of Street Magic). The cost for the tattoo itself depends on the size, complexity, and skill of the artist in question - traditional art forms (probably preferred) will be more expensive and harder to find, but will probably look better and less likely to be ruined. Prison tats bought for drugs smuggled in your colon are less likely to be as good.

Last, there's finding a magician with Quickening and the spell you want willing to do the job - and that is definitely going to cost you. (Minimum of Force x 1000 nuyen.gif)

The cheesy answer would be "compare the results to the equivalent cyberware." But of course most sustained spells are not as comparable. Really, it's up to the GM as part of the cash vs. karma balance of the game. Getting in tight with the oyabun or magical society that practices the technique can be the set-up for a proper adventure.
FrankTrollman
Personally, I wouldn't want someone with a quickened anything on my team. Wards are simply too frequently encountered to make that a good plan. Even if the quickened spell isn't destroyed by pushing it through a ward, an alarm goes off in the mind of an on-call security mage somewhere. That's all bad.

Quickening stuff is fine if you live out in the wilderness and the only astral barrier you meet is the one on your own magical lodge - but if you're a globe trotting shadowrunner, you go through other people's wards constantly enough that quickened spells of any sort are a major liability.

-Frank
Grinder
No way to "cover" a quickened spell?
knasser
QUOTE (Grinder @ May 6 2007, 08:09 AM)
No way to "cover" a quickened spell?


There is, but it requires some dedication. If you have the Extended Masking metamagic technique, then you can disguise spells and foci in the same way that you disguise your own aura. That lets you pass them through wards when you fake your aura to be the same as the ward's creator.

So although this is very good, you've paid two metamagic techniques for it (Extended Masking has Masking as a pre-requisite), and a third if you're quickening your own spells. You'll be a level three initiate without centering before you can pull this off.

Spirits with Aura Masking can do it too, but there's nothing in the books to suggest that they could apply the power to someone other than themselves. Also, Aura Masking is very rare. If you could find a friendly Flesh Form Insect Spirit Queen or Mother that was willing to enter into a Power Pact with your character... then you could also do it that way. Good luck! wink.gif

The rules for fooling wards are in Street Magic.
Grinder
I was thinking about the metamagic, but am not very familiar with the magic rules for SR4 so far. Thanks for the update. smile.gif

If a character plans to use tattoo magic extensivly, the investment in Extended Masking will be worth the karma soon.
nathanross
+4 to Assensing, Perception, and Drain rocks.

Ill have to think about a way to deal with wards.
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