Full Version: mages with guns?
i always used a repeating crossbow with hollow arrows filled with narcojet personnally, or in earlier versions, a narcojet pistol/rifle.
I would never make a mage with anything but magical skills and necessary skills like dodge. Mages are very karma intensive in SR4. Flavor-wise, I don't see a mage using a gun particularly interesting. If you want magic and guns go for the gunslinger adept. Points spent on the firearms skill comes at a great oppurtunity cost. Just to be somewhat good at it you need a skill of 3 and most likely a higher agility than would be given a mage. So that is at the very least 10-20BP in agility as well as 12BP in whichever firearms skill. That could have been used on getting more spells or obtaining/raising magical skills. When making mages, I have never had enough points left over to use on firearms.
True, uber Mages are very BP/Karma intensive, but something to consider Eleazar is that one-trick ponies tend to die rather messily and quickly if they can only find round holes to fit that square peg they are holding.
| QUOTE (Eleazar) |
| I would never make a mage with anything but magical skills and necessary skills like dodge. Mages are very karma intensive in SR4. Flavor-wise, I don't see a mage using a gun particularly interesting. If you want magic and guns go for the gunslinger adept. Points spent on the firearms skill comes at a great oppurtunity cost. Just to be somewhat good at it you need a skill of 3 and most likely a higher agility than would be given a mage. So that is at the very least 10-20BP in agility as well as 12BP in whichever firearms skill. That could have been used on getting more spells or obtaining/raising magical skills. When making mages, I have never had enough points left over to use on firearms. |
I have found that the longest lived characters in SR are those without too many glaring weaknesses. When you can be shut down simply by a force 6 mana static, you're in trouble - someone's gonna do that.
I disagree with your numbers. I can't see a mage with Agi under 3, personally. I can't see a *runner* with Agi under 3. So 3 agi is already there. Add in guns 2 (special), and a smartlink, and you're looking at 9 dice. That's not *huge* by any means, but it's enough to mean that you can contribute to the battle. That's 10 bp. Get something semi-auto with gas vents 3, and you can use wide narrow bursts for -2 dodge, which is effectively 11 dice.
Ive played a few mages, and i have never really ran into serious point deficits with them, even balancing them out.
In SR2 and before there were a few problems that were raised; mainly because Force Points were tied in with Resources, and after your top spot was taken, if you wanted to have any kind of spell versatility whatsoever you either took another high one in Resources or invested in tons of fetishes. This left very few points for attributes or skills.
SR3 and SR4 dealt with this well and even if youre generous with your Magic attribute and skills, you still have a healthy amount of points to round out your character easily. As mentioned you don't need a ton, just enough to help out if needed. I mean, if you want to play a mage purist for character reasons, by all means do so. There very wicked in their own right.
But if you want your character to be well rounded, it's very easy to do. As said i have typically had enough to get a decent gun/ranged skill(2+2 plus a smartlink) AND a good melee or unarmed skill to boot. I like how it was mentioned that not every mage knows from the dawn of time they are going to be a mage, and learn other things first. Unarmed combat, knives, clubs and some sort of ranged skill are very versatile on the mean streets.
If you try to max EVERYTHING(Magic, Magical Skills, all your magical attributes), then of course you'll run short. Just like if you spend too much on other skills youll run short. Balance is the key.
In SR2 and before there were a few problems that were raised; mainly because Force Points were tied in with Resources, and after your top spot was taken, if you wanted to have any kind of spell versatility whatsoever you either took another high one in Resources or invested in tons of fetishes. This left very few points for attributes or skills.
SR3 and SR4 dealt with this well and even if youre generous with your Magic attribute and skills, you still have a healthy amount of points to round out your character easily. As mentioned you don't need a ton, just enough to help out if needed. I mean, if you want to play a mage purist for character reasons, by all means do so. There very wicked in their own right.
But if you want your character to be well rounded, it's very easy to do. As said i have typically had enough to get a decent gun/ranged skill(2+2 plus a smartlink) AND a good melee or unarmed skill to boot. I like how it was mentioned that not every mage knows from the dawn of time they are going to be a mage, and learn other things first. Unarmed combat, knives, clubs and some sort of ranged skill are very versatile on the mean streets.
If you try to max EVERYTHING(Magic, Magical Skills, all your magical attributes), then of course you'll run short. Just like if you spend too much on other skills youll run short. Balance is the key.
It also depends on the power level of your group and the current power level of the game. In the one I am currently running the group mostly squares off against goon squads and other starting runners (using the archetypes because I'm a lazy SOB). This means that a pool of 8-12 is massive.
the mage in the game is an ork who wields a halberd and a shotgun. And on an Increased Reflexes and he's very scary.
the mage in the game is an ork who wields a halberd and a shotgun. And on an Increased Reflexes and he's very scary.
Are the other runners on the team carrying guns? Then you should, too.
Everybody's already covered the "mage camo" and "boy scout" reasons; those are the biggies, though. Don't stick out, and be prepared. You never know when you'll need one, and just a couple of levels in the skill plus a spec can make a difference.
Also, never forget the beautiful drainless Fragball spell. If you're on an unsubtle run where panthers and alphas are openly carried, grab a MGL-12 with airburst, plus a pistol/SMG/AR/whatever.
Everybody's already covered the "mage camo" and "boy scout" reasons; those are the biggies, though. Don't stick out, and be prepared. You never know when you'll need one, and just a couple of levels in the skill plus a spec can make a difference.
Also, never forget the beautiful drainless Fragball spell. If you're on an unsubtle run where panthers and alphas are openly carried, grab a MGL-12 with airburst, plus a pistol/SMG/AR/whatever.
Bach who needs a whimpy gun <pistol> Good,Bad, I'm the mage with the Grenade Launcher *evil grin*
ooo that gives me a idea for a Demo Mage...ok I need magic fingers,Ball lighting and lots of explosive foam
ooo that gives me a idea for a Demo Mage...ok I need magic fingers,Ball lighting and lots of explosive foam
Yeah, all my mage characters had some sort of backup weapon, usually a pistol or crossbow or something similar.
Using a Narcoject or Squirt was always a good idea, it let you subdue foes non-lethally (if you were nice) and even if it didn't knock them out, it did screw them up.
My most-played magical character (Sterling, oddly enough) was a Shark Shaman who usually didn't have a chance to use the backup weapon, he'd catch a round or something and then he'd dump mad dice into a fireball spell that would end up taking care of whatever he faced, but leaving him facedown and unconscious from drain.
Using a Narcoject or Squirt was always a good idea, it let you subdue foes non-lethally (if you were nice) and even if it didn't knock them out, it did screw them up.
My most-played magical character (Sterling, oddly enough) was a Shark Shaman who usually didn't have a chance to use the backup weapon, he'd catch a round or something and then he'd dump mad dice into a fireball spell that would end up taking care of whatever he faced, but leaving him facedown and unconscious from drain.
Had a mage character once whose only combat spell was Stun Ball.
Health and Illusion were his primary spell categories.
Silence, Improved Invisability, and Monofiliment made a deadly combo.
Health and Illusion were his primary spell categories.
Silence, Improved Invisability, and Monofiliment made a deadly combo.
Calico my DMPC mage that I run at the mo has no combat spells (though she does have orgasm...) at all and has 1 in unarmed combat... She also has combat paralysis though.
I play most of my mages as being able to use guns though, often they never use them, but they do carry them, mostly for intimidation puposes, coz fingers just don't cut it.
I play most of my mages as being able to use guns though, often they never use them, but they do carry them, mostly for intimidation puposes, coz fingers just don't cut it.
Questions like this are at the core of Shadowrun. To be honest with you I've found that the most powerful characters to begin with are very multi-talented, however later on as the threats/missions/stories get bigger, you require increasingly high levels of skills in order to do anything.
Taking a point of essence worth of Cyberware helps a mage a lot in the short term, but later on when your doing more and more initiations/metaplane quests/etc... you begin to miss even that single point of magic.
On the other hand, outside of hypothetical "this is the way it works" situations, I've found that GMs rarely if ever let things work normally for many character types. I find this annoying since it doesn't break a stereotype (but becomes a stereotype). As a mage your rarely going to be able to simply set yourself up to cast from a relatively "safe" position. There is almost always going to be some reason why, quite frequently because you spend more of your time getting ambushed or in firefights with security where *they* have the terraign advantage.
Matrix-experts have it the same way because despite how the setting is defined and all the problems with doing so, just about every area you need to hack into requires physical infiltration (systems sealed off from The Matrix) first. You can't for example be playing a guy in Tokyo who "Shadowruns" in Seattle by Satellite Uplink, despite being possible by the canon. The fact that 99% of the Deckers out there are too smart to take missions that require this thing as there are easier/safer ways to make money as a hacker (which is ultimatly what your out
to do) doesn't change the fact that your in the 1% since if you want to game you pretty much have to take whatever mission the GM wants to run.
At any rate, unless you expect a given gaming group to only be lasting for the short term (a few adventures tops) I recommend against mages going for Cyberware. I also suggest that all characters either begin with some kind of combat skill, or obtain it rapidly with their first Karma.
When it comes to arming a mage, understand that you are likely to only have one or two combat skills at the most. You won't have a gun for every situation. GMs in many cases are actively going to be trying to make the use of heavy weapons difficult (whether this is 'right' or 'wrong' it remains true for the most part). As a mage your not going to have many 'stealth' skills or contacts for smuggling weapons around. There is a reasonable chance that really big weapons are
going to be a waste of skill points as your not always going to be able to tote them.
Rather I recommend going for something that has decent firepower, but is also fairly easy to carry, and isn't going to invoke the instant "I hate Panther Assault Cannons" reflex possesed by most GMs (unless they are taking a turn playing). Automatics is a good catagory in SR4 because you can both carry a machine pistol or a (larger) SMG, both of which have decent firepower/concealability, and aren't going to invoke the ire of the GM in most cases. If the GM is already grumbling because the Troll Samurai is toting a modified assault cannon, and the Dwarf is making arguements about how he should be able to modify a system into his drones to fire "Reflex Missles" like Robotech or the Silent Mobius TV series intro, the last thing he wants is your mage toting a grenade launcher, and there is a chance that his ire will go in your direction since you are the least likely to be
able to conceptually justify it.
If your one of those players who doesn't mind planning for the longterm, I recommend the "Laser" as a decent weapon for a mage. Specifically weapons like the "Redeye Laser Pistol" (SR 3). I've found that once you have a few adventures under your belt GMs are a bit more open to hardware like that, especially if your 'nice' about it and are willing to dish out hard earned cash and/or spend time cultivating/RPing with your contacts rather than just trying to grab one to begin with.
I recommend the laser simply because mages usually have relatively low combat skills, which means they are unlikely to have a great deal of luck getting the successes needed to penetrate defenses, especially in mid-high level games. In many cases all a mage winds up doing if they need to try and use their gun is flatten light ammo against armor/shields at an incredible rate. Heavy weapons oftentimes won't make a differance here. A laser on the otherhand can bypass armor, and especially if your "diplomatic" and primarly work around the edges in the situations where you need a gun, it can work well.
Please pardon the way I've written this. I'm trying to explain this in "practical" terms. A lot of times "what is the best thing to do" from a statistical perspective is not the same as "what am I likely to be allowed to do". GMs vary, but I've dealt with a lot of them, and having worn the GM had myself I understand how perspectives vary between players and GMs especially in this game.
>>>----Therumancer--->
Taking a point of essence worth of Cyberware helps a mage a lot in the short term, but later on when your doing more and more initiations/metaplane quests/etc... you begin to miss even that single point of magic.
On the other hand, outside of hypothetical "this is the way it works" situations, I've found that GMs rarely if ever let things work normally for many character types. I find this annoying since it doesn't break a stereotype (but becomes a stereotype). As a mage your rarely going to be able to simply set yourself up to cast from a relatively "safe" position. There is almost always going to be some reason why, quite frequently because you spend more of your time getting ambushed or in firefights with security where *they* have the terraign advantage.
Matrix-experts have it the same way because despite how the setting is defined and all the problems with doing so, just about every area you need to hack into requires physical infiltration (systems sealed off from The Matrix) first. You can't for example be playing a guy in Tokyo who "Shadowruns" in Seattle by Satellite Uplink, despite being possible by the canon. The fact that 99% of the Deckers out there are too smart to take missions that require this thing as there are easier/safer ways to make money as a hacker (which is ultimatly what your out
to do) doesn't change the fact that your in the 1% since if you want to game you pretty much have to take whatever mission the GM wants to run.
At any rate, unless you expect a given gaming group to only be lasting for the short term (a few adventures tops) I recommend against mages going for Cyberware. I also suggest that all characters either begin with some kind of combat skill, or obtain it rapidly with their first Karma.
When it comes to arming a mage, understand that you are likely to only have one or two combat skills at the most. You won't have a gun for every situation. GMs in many cases are actively going to be trying to make the use of heavy weapons difficult (whether this is 'right' or 'wrong' it remains true for the most part). As a mage your not going to have many 'stealth' skills or contacts for smuggling weapons around. There is a reasonable chance that really big weapons are
going to be a waste of skill points as your not always going to be able to tote them.
Rather I recommend going for something that has decent firepower, but is also fairly easy to carry, and isn't going to invoke the instant "I hate Panther Assault Cannons" reflex possesed by most GMs (unless they are taking a turn playing). Automatics is a good catagory in SR4 because you can both carry a machine pistol or a (larger) SMG, both of which have decent firepower/concealability, and aren't going to invoke the ire of the GM in most cases. If the GM is already grumbling because the Troll Samurai is toting a modified assault cannon, and the Dwarf is making arguements about how he should be able to modify a system into his drones to fire "Reflex Missles" like Robotech or the Silent Mobius TV series intro, the last thing he wants is your mage toting a grenade launcher, and there is a chance that his ire will go in your direction since you are the least likely to be
able to conceptually justify it.
If your one of those players who doesn't mind planning for the longterm, I recommend the "Laser" as a decent weapon for a mage. Specifically weapons like the "Redeye Laser Pistol" (SR 3). I've found that once you have a few adventures under your belt GMs are a bit more open to hardware like that, especially if your 'nice' about it and are willing to dish out hard earned cash and/or spend time cultivating/RPing with your contacts rather than just trying to grab one to begin with.
I recommend the laser simply because mages usually have relatively low combat skills, which means they are unlikely to have a great deal of luck getting the successes needed to penetrate defenses, especially in mid-high level games. In many cases all a mage winds up doing if they need to try and use their gun is flatten light ammo against armor/shields at an incredible rate. Heavy weapons oftentimes won't make a differance here. A laser on the otherhand can bypass armor, and especially if your "diplomatic" and primarly work around the edges in the situations where you need a gun, it can work well.
Please pardon the way I've written this. I'm trying to explain this in "practical" terms. A lot of times "what is the best thing to do" from a statistical perspective is not the same as "what am I likely to be allowed to do". GMs vary, but I've dealt with a lot of them, and having worn the GM had myself I understand how perspectives vary between players and GMs especially in this game.
>>>----Therumancer--->
my 2 cents...
I had a player with his hermetic magician take pistols skill specifically for a squirt gun loaded with DMSO-Hyper.
Then when he got into a struggle with an enemy mage (albeit at close range) he would put all his sorcery+spell pool into spell defense for a round and try and shoot the mage with the HYPER to fry his brain.
It worked very well... Till I started having him encounter mages at long range... Damn those binoculars!
I had a player with his hermetic magician take pistols skill specifically for a squirt gun loaded with DMSO-Hyper.
Then when he got into a struggle with an enemy mage (albeit at close range) he would put all his sorcery+spell pool into spell defense for a round and try and shoot the mage with the HYPER to fry his brain.
It worked very well... Till I started having him encounter mages at long range... Damn those binoculars!
For pretty much purely character flavor reasons one of my favorite mages has 3 points in Flamethrower, but then the guy is pyromaniac to a degree.
More generally speaking I would say that having a few points in pistols or some other combat skill is a good idea for just about any character, magic or not.
More generally speaking I would say that having a few points in pistols or some other combat skill is a good idea for just about any character, magic or not.
| QUOTE (Therumancer) |
| At any rate, unless you expect a given gaming group to only be lasting for the short term (a few adventures tops) I recommend against mages going for Cyberware. I also suggest that all characters either begin with some kind of combat skill, or obtain it rapidly with their first Karma. |
Not true, i once ran a very good campaign a few months back with a mage that had synaptics booster rating 3 deltaware(after saving up a huge amount of money mind you...) that was the best use of 1 essence point i have ever had.
And those were 2 million 4 hundred thousand nuyen!! You could have gotten an army for that!!!!!
Geez!
Max
Geez!
Max
| QUOTE (MaxHunter) |
| And those were 2 million 4 hundred thousand nuyen!! You could have gotten an army for that!!!!! Geez! Max |
nah, thanks to the amazing face, the thing was gotten at close to 70% price, which i do have to say was just a few flat out lucky rolls on his part.
They're only 1.2 million. Can't have below cultured grade boosters, so you're doubling the price one too many times Max. Of course, 70% of 1.2 million is "Only" 840 grand. I'd be looking into turning myself into a fixer and all around street player if I had that kinda cash. Or else an early retirment 
Anyway though, I disagree with not taking cyberware, even in the long term. Skillwire systems are wonderful in the short term and ripping them out in favor of a delta grade version at a later date is surprisingly affordable, and can be a great way to free up some essence to sink into other wonderful bits of gear like pain editors, platelet factories or high end cerebral boosters. 'Ware can be a great boon when resisting drain, and is pretty easy to squeeze into a point of essence, which can really help soothe the sting of a lost magic point. Plus, I know from experience that Hermetic mages with Infiltration and Hardware skillsofts can work wonders with some stealth spells/concealment power and a logic score of 7+.
Anyway though, I disagree with not taking cyberware, even in the long term. Skillwire systems are wonderful in the short term and ripping them out in favor of a delta grade version at a later date is surprisingly affordable, and can be a great way to free up some essence to sink into other wonderful bits of gear like pain editors, platelet factories or high end cerebral boosters. 'Ware can be a great boon when resisting drain, and is pretty easy to squeeze into a point of essence, which can really help soothe the sting of a lost magic point. Plus, I know from experience that Hermetic mages with Infiltration and Hardware skillsofts can work wonders with some stealth spells/concealment power and a logic score of 7+.
Plus you can never overstate the fact that Vision Mods paid for with Essence can be used to target spells, and if your DM remembers that visability modifers do indeed subtract from your Dice Pools then being able to cycle through every vision mode at will is far sweeter then0 even the necter of the gods.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.