nathanross
May 14 2007, 02:51 PM
Dwarves and Orcs are by far the most cost effective metatypes. Trolls are good if your whole concept and abilities use their "troll-ness".
All street sams now should be orcs, and probably most deckers. +3 Bod, +2 Str, and Low light for only 20BP? That's just absurd. It is only balanced by the fact that you have to actually play an Orc.
Dwarves are the only race in which a magician can start with 15 drain dice. Please dont make me explain how much that rocks. Just like Orcs, though, you have to get used to playing the little men.
Elves totally kick in my book (or at least they did in SR3), now though they have been INSANELY overpriced, forcing all elves to either be Faces or Charisma-trad mages (which is still more expensive than a Logic-trad with Cereberal Booster). +1 Agility is just not enough (+.5 Reaction, though...

;god I miss SR3)
Humans are actually cost +10 in the current rules. Not to mention that Edge totally ROCKS. Not only is it better than Karma Pool, but Humans can have 6 uses of 6 dice. Or if really min-maxed, 8 uses of 8 dice! That just totally rocks. They also allow you A LOT more BP to be spent on skills and other things if you are not trying to min-max. While I started SR4 trying to play all-elves again, they just get too expensive, and I have found myself playing more and more humans.
Kyoto Kid
May 14 2007, 04:20 PM
QUOTE (WearzManySkins) |
Yes I agree attempting to convert SR3 Ed characters is a very painful process, and at least for the end results no where near the SR 3 ed character.
The best I have been able to do is some of the concept of the SR 3 ed.
Best all in all is start fresh. |
...I Agree as well
Some characters (such as KK, my former decker Violet, and Field Medic/Sammy Markova) carried over pretty well with just minor changes. Others, while not working as a direct conversion did so by changing the archetype while still retaining the original concept (such as making my baseball throwing Tomoe Sasaki an adept instead of a bio Sammy). Still others are pretty much write offs, such as my Bio enhanced Sohei, Randi Rhodes (Resource and Availability caps) or my Ex Seraphim Agent Night Angel (Resource Caps, and specific Bioware/gear missing or in "yet to be released" sourcebooks).
Admittedly starting fresh has produced a several unexpected gems including my Cajun boxer-Adept Hannah, my street kid-con artist Da Brat, and ex Mossad operative, Bekka.
Unarmed
May 14 2007, 06:37 PM
QUOTE (nathanross @ May 14 2007, 09:51 AM) |
Dwarves are the only race in which a magician can start with 15 drain dice. Please dont make me explain how much that rocks. Just like Orcs, though, you have to get used to playing the little men. |
Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't elven shamans (or any tradition that uses charisma to resist drain dice) do just as well (if not better) as dwarves as starting characters resisting drain?
MaxHunter
May 14 2007, 06:37 PM
I am Gming 3 groups right now, and some players have replacement characters to make well rounded group when some specialist misses the run. All in all
3 orks
1 elf
2 dwarves
5 humans
But the different teams configurations are 1 human, 2 dwarves and 2 orks
1 elf and 3 humans and 1 ork and 1 human. (and that group of only two is looking for some extra players...)
I do think orks are the new master race, but for very little difference. Humans are still the most popular race group and all the other races but trolls are represented. Not enough evidence for tweaking, IMO.
I am also thinking that by 2070 the ork demographic explosion should be starting to cause some problems, especially in underdeveloped countries where the humans do not have so much of an edge (!) Where are the raving hordes of ork barbarians? (sorry, criminals)
4 an ork nation
Cheers,
Max
nathanross
May 15 2007, 02:42 PM
QUOTE (Unarmed @ Posted on May 14 2007, 01:37 PM) |
Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't elven shamans (or any tradition that uses charisma to resist drain dice) do just as well (if not better) as dwarves as starting characters resisting drain? |
The max number of drain dice elves can start with without raising any attributes to the racial maximum (6 for willpower, 8 for charisma) is 14.
5 Willpower + 7 Charisma +2 Focused Concentration = 14
This makes elves the best for Charisma traditions. The Logic traditions, while not as good for elves, are great for dwarves and humans. (Intuition is harder to min-max the drain dice, but the best all around drain attribute, and the only one Orks are effective spellcasters with)
The reason Logic trads are great is because of cereberal booster. Instead of having to pay 20BP for an increase in Charisma, you only have to pay 4BP (14 if you want to take into consideration the loss of Magic, though any smart mage would also get skillwires or some other usefull ware in the remaining hole). This allows a human mage to start with the same amount of drain dice at start as an elf. Now dwarves can one up this with their +1 to willpower, giving them 15 drain dice at start.
6 Willpower + 5(7) Logic +2 Focused Concentration = 15
Taking a hit to magic is completely worth it to get 2 more drain dice as drain is what really prevents you from casting real powerfull mojo.
EDIT:
Did I remind you that Dwarves also cost 5BP less than elves, Get strength up to 3 for free (can anyone else say 'dump-attribute'), and get a bonus to body which is always great.
Also, let me say that I love elves more than any race, its just that SR4 rapes them.
knasser
May 15 2007, 05:44 PM
QUOTE (MaxHunter) |
Where are the raving hordes of ork barbarians? (sorry, criminals) |
Birth control.
Would you want to give birth to eight babies?
Unarmed
May 15 2007, 06:32 PM
QUOTE (nathanross) |
QUOTE (Unarmed @ Posted on May 14 2007, 01:37 PM) | Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't elven shamans (or any tradition that uses charisma to resist drain dice) do just as well (if not better) as dwarves as starting characters resisting drain? |
The max number of drain dice elves can start with without raising any attributes to the racial maximum (6 for willpower, 8 for charisma) is 14.
5 Willpower + 7 Charisma +2 Focused Concentration = 14
This makes elves the best for Charisma traditions. The Logic traditions, while not as good for elves, are great for dwarves and humans. (Intuition is harder to min-max the drain dice, but the best all around drain attribute, and the only one Orks are effective spellcasters with)
The reason Logic trads are great is because of cereberal booster. Instead of having to pay 20BP for an increase in Charisma, you only have to pay 4BP (14 if you want to take into consideration the loss of Magic, though any smart mage would also get skillwires or some other usefull ware in the remaining hole). This allows a human mage to start with the same amount of drain dice at start as an elf. Now dwarves can one up this with their +1 to willpower, giving them 15 drain dice at start.
6 Willpower + 5(7) Logic +2 Focused Concentration = 15
Taking a hit to magic is completely worth it to get 2 more drain dice as drain is what really prevents you from casting real powerfull mojo.
EDIT: Did I remind you that Dwarves also cost 5BP less than elves, Get strength up to 3 for free (can anyone else say 'dump-attribute'), and get a bonus to body which is always great.
Also, let me say that I love elves more than any race, its just that SR4 rapes them.
|
Ah yeah, I forgot about cerebral boosters. Damn. =)
Elves are still quite good, it's just that in SR4 they're only really good in certain areas, sadly.
fool
May 15 2007, 07:42 PM
point for point, elves are still the best magic types.
Yes CB will get you on par with an elf for drain, but you do lose that point of magic and it costs substantial BP's to buy the thing to begin with.
Charisma is the limit on the number of spirits you can have bound, meaning the more charisma, the more power boosters, servants etc you can have.
They're still the best faces, and if well played and crafted, can provide all the information you need for most runs.
Finally, don't forget their bonus to agility, always a help when doing things like swinging that magic katana or shooting a pistol in that mana ebb.
I'm not saying that elves are the best, just that they are hardly raped, and still about the best mages around.
BTW there was a poll I put up sometime ago about which metatypes people liked the most and which they thought were the most unbalancing. I'll try to look it up, and people can put their opinions up there.
nathanross
May 16 2007, 04:36 AM
@fool, You're right that elves are not completely raped and the whole world is against them, I was just exaggerating.
You have also identified the only two places in which they are worth their cost, as faces and shamans (now to refer to the group of all charisma traditions, as opposed to mages, which will now refer to the group of logic traditions)
You are also right about Agility, as it is a very, very usefull attribute, however you do not get it for free, only the ability to start with it at a higher level cheaper.
Now I dont want to challange your min-maxing as I did not even understand the concept before running with Cheri, but tit for tat, Logic trads are cheaper.
Not only is the cost to improve Magic to the maximum cheaper (15 as opposed to 18), but the cost of skills with implanted skillwires in the long run far outweigh ANY other cost for a magicican (now to refer to any awakened being able to use sorcery and conjuring). Anything that a mage can buy instead of having to pay karma for will leave more karma available for improving Magic and magic skill.
We also know that overcasting is not at all an issue when you can usually guarantee the ability to resist the drain completely. I think all the above far outweigh the -1DP loss from a starting Magic of 4 compared to 5.
Whipstitch
May 16 2007, 06:52 AM
Yeah, I have to agree with Nathanross, there's plenty of 'ware combos that can easily make up for the loss of a point of magic, especially for logic traditions. For example, my new mage (my last one recently ate some APDS) uses this stuff: Cybereye 3, Cerebral Booster 2, Skillwire 1 and a Pain Editor. I know it sounds worthless, but believe it or not, the Skillwire 1 system has been very handy. I use it to in order to have access to skills you're not allowed to default but are linked to logic, like Medicine or Hardware. When you already have 7 logic to play around with, all you really need is some decent tools or a good medkit to be pretty competent. The best part though is I almost have enough cash to trade up to a Delta Skillwire 2 system (only 40k!). And being able to gain a point of Willl and ignore stun damage with the pain editor is just awesome.
nathanross
May 16 2007, 02:43 PM
Slightly off topic, but they made Deltaware
insanely easy to get, since the availability is the same across the board. In previous editions Deltaware was SOTA and only a very, very few clinics existed able to make it, and they were all very hidden within the AAA corps. Guess, now it just costs a lot more, but even the local street doc can get it.
Kyoto Kid
May 16 2007, 03:20 PM
...elves may be "cool" but humans still rock.
Mooseh
May 16 2007, 03:22 PM
Haven't read all of this thread because it seems a little off topic.
But the reason that everyone won't play a metahuman is quite simply variety.
I recently played a human mage not because he had better stats or any other bonuses but purely because I wanted to play a human, not a troll, or an orc, or an elf but a human
Simple really
Shadow
May 16 2007, 03:25 PM
My last Sam, an ork now doing 15 to life in the Hollywood CF, rolled an awesome 23 dice when soaking ballistic damage. He was a killing machine. I agree with the all Sams should be orks. He wasn't super stealthy or perceptive, but he could kill like Johnny B. Good played the guitar.
We never really spent a lot of time "in town" so to be honest racism was never really aa factor. If he needed something, anything really, he went through his fixer or ordered it over the interweb.
Noctum
May 16 2007, 06:18 PM
I have a house rule -
1. All Players are allowed 1 meta and 1 Magical character out every 4 due to the low percentage of the population that both of them fill. If their first character is both a Mage and a Meta then their next character is required to be both a Human and non-magical. It has solved the Elves and Ork problems in my games. Since Shadowrun by its nature is dangerous they have a tendancy to get killed every couple of months.
Unarmed
May 16 2007, 07:45 PM
QUOTE (Noctum) |
I have a house rule -
1. All Players are allowed 1 meta and 1 Magical character out every 4 due to the low percentage of the population that both of them fill. If their first character is both a Mage and a Meta then their next character is required to be both a Human and non-magical. It has solved the Elves and Ork problems in my games. Since Shadowrun by its nature is dangerous they have a tendancy to get killed every couple of months. |
While this might work well for your game, and I'm sure it does, I would never consider doing this as a GM under any circumstances. I want the players to be happy playing whatever they want to play. If a player only wants to play mages or only wants to play humans, more power to em!
Aaron
May 16 2007, 07:47 PM
QUOTE (nathanross) |
Slightly off topic, but they made Deltaware insanely easy to get, since the availability is the same across the board. In previous editions Deltaware was SOTA and only a very, very few clinics existed able to make it, and they were all very hidden within the AAA corps. Guess, now it just costs a lot more, but even the local street doc can get it. |
Previous editions were ten years prior. Ten years ago, GPS was shiny and new and had just been made available for the public by Clinton. Now it's in my cell phone.
nathanross
May 16 2007, 08:14 PM
QUOTE (Aaron @ Posted on May 16 2007, 02:47 PM) |
Previous editions were ten years prior. Ten years ago, GPS was shiny and new and had just been made available for the public by Clinton. Now it's in my cell phone. |
GPS wasn't guarded by ten, trillion nuyen corporations, and only known to a very, very small number of people. Remember, deltaware is hand in hand with cybermancy, and there is no way you are going to tell me that the Cybermancy metamagic was recently published in the New England Journal of Thaumaturgy.
Kyoto Kid
May 16 2007, 08:15 PM
...for the cost, finding Deltaware it really isn't worth the trouble. At x10 to base price (SR3 had it priced at x8) for an additional -.2 to essence impact you re better off getting comparable Bioware (if available). For example, to get Wired Reflexes 2 [Delta] would cost 220,000

and take 1.5 essence. For 160,000

you can get a rating 2 Synaptic Booster that only takes 1 essence and is pretty much undetectable without special bio scanners or magic.
Beta Grade is also a bit of a raw deal now since the essence reduction was changed to .3 from .4. Basically, for twice again as much as Alphaware, you only get half the benefit. The pricing scale would make more sense if it went .1 for Alpha, .25 for Beta and .5 for Delta. Personally I'm considering going back to the old reduction values for Alpha and Betaware and pretty much nixing Delta.
(...and humans still rock)
Aaron
May 16 2007, 08:31 PM
QUOTE (nathanross) |
QUOTE (Aaron @ Posted on May 16 2007, 02:47 PM) | Previous editions were ten years prior. Ten years ago, GPS was shiny and new and had just been made available for the public by Clinton. Now it's in my cell phone. |
GPS wasn't guarded by ten, trillion nuyen corporations, and only known to a very, very small number of people. Remember, deltaware is hand in hand with cybermancy, and there is no way you are going to tell me that the Cybermancy metamagic was recently published in the New England Journal of Thaumaturgy.
|
As I understand it, Benjamin Franklin once wrote that three can keep a secret if two are dead. I also believe that Stewart Brand said that information wants to be free. It's still been a decade. Just saying.
Aaron
May 16 2007, 08:33 PM
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid) |
Beta Grade is also a bit of a raw deal now since the essence reduction was changed to .3 from .4. Basically, for twice again as much as Alphaware, you only get half the benefit. The pricing scale would make more sense if it went .1 for Alpha, .25 for Beta and .5 for Delta. Personally I'm considering going back to the old reduction values for Alpha and Betaware and pretty much nixing Delta. |
I, for one, like a system with diminishing returns. It's self-limiting, self-balancing, and everybody settles at the point along the curve that is most efficient for them.
FrankTrollman
May 16 2007, 09:45 PM
QUOTE (Aaron) |
QUOTE (nathanross @ May 16 2007, 03:14 PM) | QUOTE (Aaron @ Posted on May 16 2007, 02:47 PM) | Previous editions were ten years prior. Ten years ago, GPS was shiny and new and had just been made available for the public by Clinton. Now it's in my cell phone. |
GPS wasn't guarded by ten, trillion nuyen corporations, and only known to a very, very small number of people. Remember, deltaware is hand in hand with cybermancy, and there is no way you are going to tell me that the Cybermancy metamagic was recently published in the New England Journal of Thaumaturgy.
|
As I understand it, Benjamin Franklin once wrote that three can keep a secret if two are dead. I also believe that Stewart Brand said that information wants to be free. It's still been a decade. Just saying.
|
In SR4 we're looking at more cybermancy clinics, but not universal distribution. You've got more players but no "generic models" yet. Due to the extensive requirements in expertise and medical technology, proliferation of cybermancy is more analagous to nuclear proliferation than it is to algorithm proliferation
What I was going for with the availability rules for higher grades of work in Augmentation was to make finding Delta clinics a difficult but achievable goal, and didn't adjustthe difficulty of getting specific ware at all. The old rules, where higher grades directly influenced the availability of the ware had severe problems - high grade Datajacks were starting equipment and yet fanciful equipment like Move By Wires that could only be implanted in a Delta clinic anyhow was largely unavailable at higher grades.
Here's me crossing my fingers that it still fixes that old problem after it has been through layout and playtesting at he new company.
-Frank
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