Each simple action allows you to move a set number of additional meters during the action. It's extremely granular, but that's a necessary abstraction for a turn based game.

-Frank

it adds a dice penalty, I believe.

it's not a few seconds, for the love of mike. it's more than double the maximum human land speed ever recorded. even someone who is just a bit above average (4 Str, 4 Running) can run almost twice as fast as the fastest recorded human.

nor is it necessary at all--if you disallow non-augmented characters from sprinting more than once per pass, the problem fixes itself. the simple fact is that sprinting rules were originally designed with the idea in mind that people would only be able to sprint once per phase. i know this because i designed them, or designed a parallel version of them at the same time the existing ones were being designed. you want to remove that limit for people with augmented initiative, that's fine--i'm all for it. removing it for people with unauged initiative is crazy.

You need to lay off the hyperbole or the crack.

An unaugmented human with a Strengthand Running of 4 (beyond "Professional Grade" by the way), can make two Sprinting checks a turn, rolling a total of 16 dice, and averaging 5.3 hits. That's an extra 10.7 meters per turn, for a total speed of 35.7 meters/combat phase.

That works out to a 3.077 second 40 yard dash, which in turn is 1 second faster than a decent NFL time. But since Shadowrun does not take into account the .25 seconds that it takes a human to start running, that's really just .75 seconds faster than a good NFL time.

And it's for someone who is slightly faster than most NFL players to begin with and it's 65 years from now using those standards. You really are making a mountain out of a molehill.

Faster people really do have to move extra meters beyond the reach of slower people within the seconds that combat lasts or the granularity of movement will allow slower characters to continually catch up and attack. If that means that a fast 40 yard dash has gotten .75 seconds faster in the next 65 years, so be it.

-Frank

i don't think we're using the same standards. most NFL players would have a minimum Str of 4, if i were to stat them in SR4, or 3 with a lot of Athletics dice.

You may have got it from me in the "Most Dice You Can Roll Thread," but that was a troll adept that specialised in sprinting.

I fully agree with Frank that the rules say you can double sprint or more. I also strongly feel that this was an oversight on the part of the developers. I have houseruled it to one sprint action per combat turn.

The current world record for the 100m is 9.38 seconds according to Google.

An unaugmented human who is very fit (strength 4) and a professional standard athlete (skill 4) will score an average of 3 hits (close enough). That's going to mean a speed of 31m per combat turn or 9.68 seconds for the 100m. Now the difference between Gold and unplaced at that level is measured in 1/10ths of a second. But even so, I feel that the system is fairly generous to people. This is after all someone who is neither specialised in sprinting, nor world class. With an exceptional roll, perhaps 5 hits, they'll break the world record. On the other hand, Shadowrunners are generally being shot at, so let's allow it.

Broadly speaking, the existing rules produce figures that are surprisingly close to what sounds right in the real world. And as Frank says, the SR4 system doesn't have the granualarity to deal in 1/5th of a metre. And also as Frank says, times might be slightly faster in another sixty years (though there is good reason to think we're nearing the maximums for natural human ability in this area).

However, throw in multiple sprints and things get worse. With two sprint actions, our very fit and well-trained athlete is now getting 5 hits and is routinely breaking the current 100m record and by over a second (he does it in 8.57 seconds). This is someone who is impressive, but is certainly not a specialist sprinter or world class. Not to mention that with a couple of good rolls, he can actually (9 hits) do the 100m in under seven seconds. That's about 51kmph, or 32mph. Do you really want fit people running at 32mph? Can you even imagine being overtaken by that person when you're walking to work and they go jogging past you? It would scare the willies out of you!

So this to me is enough. We have a system that seems to successfully approximate the real world when you don't allow multiple sprints, and produces surreal effects when you do. So I allow one sprint action per turn which is what I believe is intended.

As regards initiative enhancers, I see no reason why something that improved your reflexes would allow you to run an extra 12 or 24 metres in three seconds (3 hits per sprint action, 2 sprint actions per turn, 1 or 2 bonus initiative respectively). Even if you only allow one sprint action per initiative pass as MFB is suggesting, Wired Reflexes II brings the above individual up to a blistering 52kph or 32mph.

One sprint per turn will give you a close approximation to the real world, with a small bias in favour of the character. If that appeals to you, then stick to it. If you want players running down people on motorbikes (remember the above is a non-specialist with at most, better than average rolls), then use multiple sprints.

...Aren't unaugmented any more?

-Frank

... are characters in Kung Fu Hustle?

are you insane? i'm being serious. no, spending Edge is not 'augmentation'. it's not augmentation if you're using your natural abilities.

you're seriously suggesting that someone can get lucky and run 40mph. i'm not sure how to counter that except to tell you to RTFM. take ten seconds out of your day and find anything, anywhere, that says humans can come even close to reaching 40mph on foot. hell, i'll settle for 30mph.

Adepts and Magicians have natural abilities. These abilities are defined as "Augmentation". Your definition makes no sense.

-Frank

I'm positing that people who aren't named characters in Shadowrun use Group Edge and don't get to buy extra initiative passes (p. 274).

If there's a bunch of people on the track, none of them is even allowed to buy an extra initiative pass, so what the fuck do you care?

-Frank

To the extent that Magic is "supernatural" then Edge is "supernatural" as well. It is unlikely and unexplainable events that happen in your favor. It's roughly analagous to Earthdawn Karma manipulation and in the ancient days it was considered magic.

That people in 2070 do not consider it magic is a statement about what thaumaturgical science is like, more than it is a blanket statement about what is or is not magical.

But really, "supernatural" is a non-sensical distinction, since the definition of "natural" actually does include spells, spirits, and adept powers. Seriously, if it exists, it's natural.

-Frank

As you say, it appears that MFB has left the thread and I'm not interested in perpetuating another's argument. But I think I can clarify the "supernatural" issue for the sake of posterity (and in case MFB is annoyed at now not being able to answer it himself). The point was that if it wasn't supernatural, i.e. didn't depend on mana levels, adept powers, etc., then mundane people in our own time would have it. And if that were the case then they could burn it for an extra initiative pass and the rules would have moderately good athletes today breaking the 100m world record fairly frequently. And this implication doesn't match observed reality, therefore question the proposition.

Anyway, I think the usefulness of this thread to anyone reading is nearing its end. RAW = multiple sprints. Strong realism = single sprint. Each GM can make their choice and we should all now go back to amicable disagreements elsewhere.

Personally, I didn't know that FanPro employed any non-lunatic freelancers.

-K.

Actually, it's 8.3 m/s, not 10 m/s. It's 30 KPH, and if you were able to sustain it for 64 combat rounds, you'd be running a 3.2 minute mile (of course fudging the quarter second of initial reaction time that the game hand waves before your first movement action and after the gunshot).

Now, that's actually quite a problem, since to do that you'd need to have a Body + Run hits of 54 (and even then you'd have taken 10 boxes of stun by the time you crossed the finish line). In the mile, you'd be more likely to be "jogging" - an unfortunately undefined amount of movement that is somewhat less than that.

However, there is absolutely nothing that can stop you from "walking" an 8 minute mile. That's actually not a super bad time. And everyone on the planet is capable of doing it. I am an avid hiker, and I can do a 12 minute mile over and over again. But I'm pretty winded after pulling an 8 minute mile.

---

So yes. It's unrealistically fast. Substantially so. But that's fine, because at the level of combat with knives and guns the movement works pretty well.

-Frank