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WearzManySkins
Ok here is the Spell: Turn Wireless Signal to Orange Fresh Scent

Transformation type of spell

Physical +1
Area Effect(Magic Rating Radius) +2
Very Restricted Target(Wireless Signals) -2
Sustained 0
Highly Processed Objects(4 successes to work) 0
Major Change(RF signal into olfactory component) +2
Environmental Manipulation -2
Totals +1 Force Rating

Why on oder rather just erase it, well oder can be smelled, Hacker would have lots of wireless signals, ie there scent would be greatly noticeable.

Why Orange fresh, well it is a fairly distinctive smell makes that Hacker really stand out so to speak. biggrin.gif

But from what I have read on hacking, loosing the wireless signal, can result in dump shock.

Besides cast a group of opponents, unless they are wireless, everything wireless is smelling great. rotfl.gif

Please point out where I may figured the Drain Code wrong. smile.gif
mfb
you can't cast spells on things you can't see. that's why you take visibility mods on spellcasting tests. you can't possibly perceive radio waves, ergo you can't target them with a spell.

edit: nm, area spell.

i don't think this should be a pass/fail spell, because the spell it most closely resembles--chaff or whatever--isn't, as i recall. this spell should have, basically the same--if not less--effect as chaff, because of the added awesomeness of making your enemies smell funny.
WearzManySkins
QUOTE (mfb @ May 28 2007, 06:24 PM)
you can't cast spells on things you can't see. that's why you take visibility mods on spellcasting tests. you can't possibly perceive radio waves, ergo you can't target them with a spell.

edit: nm, area spell.

You are not as correct as you may think but please refer to Pages 173-174, spells Interference and Pulse. They both effect Wireless, but again the mage can not see them.

Opps have to add the environmental condition. smile.gif

Besides one can create a Detection spell that allows one to see Wireless fairly easily. smile.gif

Opps check out the Sterilize spell, most can not normally see bacteria and other micro organism
Aaron
I'd have called it "Fresh Orange Scent" rather than "Orange Fresh Smell." Unless I wanted the spell to come from Japan or China, then I'd leave it as it is.
WearzManySkins
QUOTE (Aaron)
I'd have called it "Fresh Orange Scent" rather than "Orange Fresh Smell." Unless I wanted the spell to come from Japan or China, then I'd leave it as it is.

Thank you for that point, I have heeded your advise. smile.gif
WearzManySkins
As a minor change the wireless signal could be turned into Elven Opera Songs. biggrin.gif
Lagomorph
QUOTE (WearzManySkins)
As a minor change the wireless signal could be turned into Elven Opera Songs. biggrin.gif

Don't radios already turn wireless signals into music? I think Wireless smell-o-grams is the only thing that technology hasn't already done so go with that. smile.gif
WearzManySkins
Very true about radios.

But I believe this spell can be used on drones also, at least impairing the drones function.
Aaron
I do have a few issues with the drain code.

First, I'm not entirely convinced that "wireless signals" constitutes a Very Restricted Target. The description for Very Restricted Target talk about individuals.

I also can't agree with the Environmental Effect modifier. You're not changing the properties of an area, you're changing energy into matter. An environmental effect would be a change in temperature or an increase in the resistance to sound waves.

WearzManySkins
Environmental Area Spells

Alter Temperature, increasing or decreasing the entropy(energy state) of matter

Clean Element it you could purify gold of any impurities, molecular restructuring at least.

Element Aura, creating energies out of nothing,. lets say from that elements dimension. smile.gif

Element Wall, same as the above

Interference, Jamming all wireless signals in an area, creating wireless signals out of nothing.

Mana Static, increasing the background count, no creating but intensifying what is there.

Mist, condensing water vapor into a visible mist

Offensive Mana Barrier, solidifying mana into a barrier

Pulse, creating a Electro Magnetic Pulse to render devices inoperative, generally this is only available from a nuclear explosion. Creating energy out of nothing.

Shape, restructure matter into a form of the casters choosing.

There is Einstein's energy equals matter accelerated to the speed of light squared, this spell is merely decelerating the energy so it turns back into matter.

As for very restricted target....then we could use restricted effect for a -1. smile.gif
Demon_Bob
Trouble is once you turned all the wireless signals into an Orange Fresh Smell the devices would no longer be transmitting a wireless signal but a smell and so the spell would end.
You might as well make it instant.
Besides, how many signals are buzzing through air around you right now from various sources. The Orange Fresh Smell would not have enough strength from any one direction for anything except for a specially trained Orange tracking Bloodhound to find.
In a crowded office you would just hear,"Why isn't this working?" and "Is that a new cleaner?"

Why don't you just call it what your looking for Lemony Fresh Jamming spell.
With hits reducing the signal strength
WearzManySkins
Well for the more mundane, you could merely shift the frequency of the wireless to above or below what the wireless devices use. Rendering them effectively useless.

The manipulation spell of Deflection keeps turning aside ranged combat attacks, as long as is is sustained.

I am under the impression that wireless devices continue to emit signal until turned off of instructed not to transmit.

Using the above deflection spell, as long as it is sustained it transforms the emitted wireless signals.

Yes a instant version of the spell could be made. Timed correctly could cause a hacker or technomage to get some dump shock.
Demon_Bob
Was being silly.

Ok, so for the Lemony Fresh Jamming Spell.
Physical +1; Area +2; Extended Area +2; Physical Manipulation +0; Special Effect Lemon Scent +0; Touch -2 (because I plan to be the center of the spell) for (F/2)+3. Jams all signals in AoE with signal less than hit scored by spellcaster.
Range = Magic*Force*10

Deflecting the incomming wireless signals should really only protect you. The equivalent would be as though your Firewall was increased by the number of hits.
MaxHunter
This is a firm candidate for BEST SPELL EVER!!! Suffer, turn to goo, suffer!!

Cheers,

Max grinbig.gif rotate.gif
Aaron
QUOTE (WearzManySkins)
There is Einstein's energy equals matter accelerated to the speed of light squared, this spell is merely decelerating the energy so it turns back into matter.

Er ... I'm no expert, but I'm pretty certain that decelerating energy doesn't make it matter. Heck, the human race has reduced light to a stately 38 miles per hour, and it stayed light.

If that were the case, we'd have little pellets of sunshine in our water. I'm pretty sure you're turning something into something else.
WearzManySkins
Actually I was intending the spell to be cast at or near the enemy wireless users.

They could be done via detect enemies, detect resonance, or LOS.

But this spell brings the Team concept back into place ie, with out a hacker in your team your are vulnerable to what a hacker/technomancer can do to you and your gear.

I see the only defense against this spell type is Counter Spelling by a mage.

So unless a hacker/technomage has a mage in his team, to use Counter Spelling to defend against this spell, then they could be at risk.

But I see the technomage at greatest risk for dump shock this spell "might" cause.

Bob the Interference spell basically does what you have described.

To me the spell is more useful to be cast away at or near the enemies.

As of right now I would have the spell transform the wireless signals above or below the signal range of wireless.
Demon_Bob
QUOTE (WearzManySkins)
There is Einstein's energy equals matter accelerated to the speed of light squared, this spell is merely decelerating the energy so it turns back into matter.

Seems like it would be better to alter the Radio Frequency range into the Visual Frequency range. Allowing you to see RF as visible light as well as providing some illumination.

However, if wireless signals in Shadowrun work somewhat like Bluetooth devices today jumping around different frequencies then it would be as if someone set off several low power flashpacks in the room.
WearzManySkins
QUOTE (Demon_Bob)
QUOTE (WearzManySkins @ May 28 2007, 07:18 PM)
There is Einstein's energy equals matter accelerated to the speed of light squared, this spell is merely decelerating the energy so it turns back into matter.

Seems like it would be better to alter the Radio Frequency range into the Visual Frequency range. Allowing you to see RF as visible light as well as providing some illumination.

However, if wireless signals in Shadowrun work somewhat like Bluetooth devices today jumping around different frequencies then it would be as if someone set off several low power flashpacks in the room.

IIRC the visual spectrum is a higher frequency than the wireless frequencies.

FYI do not forget about the WiFi frequencies.

Yes that is a possibility for the spell. But only the strongest signals would gain the flash pak effects.

WMS
Ravor
Well just to second what another poster has said, this spell should work like Chaff with the smell being an added FX.
WearzManySkins
QUOTE (Ravor @ May 28 2007, 11:00 PM)
Well just to second what another poster has said, this spell should work like Chaff with the smell being an added FX.


The was not designed to work as Chaff. It does not interfere with the signal,, it renders the signal useless to those who would use it, by shifting the frequencies of the wireless signals, out of the range they are usable.

Chaff, Interference are forms of jamming. This spell is not a jamming spell.

I understand it castrates the wireless attacker if they get targeted by it, kinda like a Turn to Goo spell, best defense is not to be targeted.

Reread the thread, the "wireless" is now shifted up or down in frequency rendering the wireless signal useless to the devices using wireless frequency range. I no longer seek a olfactory transformation of the wireless.

The only defense is counterspelling as in the defense against Turn to Goo.

WMS
Ravor
And then I'd veto the spell. cyber.gif
WearzManySkins
QUOTE (Ravor @ May 28 2007, 11:52 PM)
And then I'd veto the spell.  cyber.gif

That is entirely within the pervue of GMs. biggrin.gif

There is more than one way to Skin a Hacker/Technomage. rotfl.gif

Curious question would you allow Turn to Goo?
Ravor
mad.gif Turn to Goo mad.gif?


Well if Turn to Goo is ever fixed so that it no longer stupidly flaunts one of the most basic Magical Facts in the Sixth World (Once paid for with Essence cyberware becomes part of the Metahuman's Pattern and CAN NOT be treated seperately.) then I wouldn't have a problem with it because it is targeting a single living enity in an all-or-nothing effect.

On the other hand, I see your spell as being akin to Alter Temperature in which it is manipulating energy and when magic does that we know that it does so in a matter of degrees instead of all-or-nothing.
laughingowl
Well Adlibbing myself:


Interfence is pretty much already the same thing (with no fresh orange sent).

I say go with how interference works, for mechanics.

AS a fan of modifying existing spells (rather then calculating out from scratch new ones). Personally I would come up with F/2+4 for drain (With interference being f/2+3 and this one also having an additional effect, the drain is a little higher).

Note: restricted target is NOT a benefit and NONEof the restricted targets would apply in this case.


Clean Air isnt a restrict target and doesnt get modifiers. Now Clean Air of Carbon Monoxide WOULD be a very restricted target spell.

Clean Water is non-restricted, Clean Water of Saline would be a restricted target.


Wireless signal to orange fresh is non-restricted.

2.5ghz Wireless signal to orange fresh is restricted.


Short end of the story:

The spell shouldnt be 'more effective' the the existing 'Interference' as it has a secondary purpose it also shouldnt have a lower drain.

As a side note: Given I havent seen a spell 'create' matter and the limits of sorcery:

QUOTE
Sorcery Cannot Create Complex Things
Though spellcraft can transform energy,
spark elemental forces, and even provide nutrition,
no magicians have yet determined a
way for sorcery to create complex items (such
as a gun or even a hammer) from mana alone—
despite the best efforts of research corps to
date. Sorcery can be used to fix and sometimes
transmute complex items, but the days
of summoning weapons from nowhere have
not yet arrived.


Reads to me as matter cant be created. Doesn't directly state nothing can be created, but doesnt define what a 'simple' thing is and/or give an example of something being created. In previous verision when we had 'Create meal' AND nutrition, then matter could be created, but nothing I read in SR4 actually creates any matter.

Scent is the nose detecting chemical substances, thus require matter, so wouldnt allow it to be converted to a scent, now Wireless to Light, or wireless to humming I would allow, as energy to another energy is possible. (much like matter to different matter is possible).
WearzManySkins
QUOTE (laughingowl)
Well Adlibbing myself:


Interfence is pretty much already the same thing (with no fresh orange sent).

I say go with how interference works, for mechanics.

AS a fan of modifying existing spells (rather then calculating out from scratch new ones). Personally I would come up with F/2+4 for drain (With interference being f/2+3 and this one also having an additional effect, the drain is a little higher).

Note: restricted target is NOT a benefit and NONEof the restricted targets would apply in this case.


Clean Air isnt a restrict target and doesnt get modifiers. Now Clean Air of Carbon Monoxide WOULD be a very restricted target spell.

Clean Water is non-restricted, Clean Water of Saline would be a restricted target.


Wireless signal to orange fresh is non-restricted.

2.5ghz Wireless signal to orange fresh is restricted.


Short end of the story:

The spell shouldnt be 'more effective' the the existing 'Interference' as it has a secondary purpose it also shouldnt have a lower drain.

As a side note: Given I havent seen a spell 'create' matter and the limits of sorcery:

QUOTE
Sorcery Cannot Create Complex Things
Though spellcraft can transform energy,
spark elemental forces, and even provide nutrition,
no magicians have yet determined a
way for sorcery to create complex items (such
as a gun or even a hammer) from mana alone—
despite the best efforts of research corps to
date. Sorcery can be used to fix and sometimes
transmute complex items, but the days
of summoning weapons from nowhere have
not yet arrived.


Reads to me as matter cant be created. Doesn't directly state nothing can be created, but doesnt define what a 'simple' thing is and/or give an example of something being created. In previous verision when we had 'Create meal' AND nutrition, then matter could be created, but nothing I read in SR4 actually creates any matter.

Scent is the nose detecting chemical substances, thus require matter, so wouldnt allow it to be converted to a scent, now Wireless to Light, or wireless to humming I would allow, as energy to another energy is possible. (much like matter to different matter is possible).

Ok Sighs...

I disagree on interference, one is jamming, the other is a transformation from one signal band ie wireless, to a higher or lower frequency band, Please read all the above topics it has been covered.

Even if the drain is higher, the effect is the same, wireless(blue tooth, WiFi0 are rendered non functional.

As for the target ok the drain is higher.

Are you saying not no spell can be as effective as published spells?

Read Element Aura and wall, they create energy from nothing.

This spell is transforming wireless energy to another form of RF energy ie higher or lower frequency.

I agree that it needs 4+ successes to affect wireless radio waves.

Matter is created look at the Barrier spells. Fashion how do you think it recreats clothing, yes it transforms but so does my spell.

Reenforce etc.

The olfactory part is long gone, please read the "entire" thread.

WMS




Sterling
Actually, turn to goo is described as only targeting "living tissue", so that's why clothes, gear, and cyberware don't change to goo as well. Buying cyberware with essence doesn't fundamentally alter the cyberware in question, it just allows your body to accept it and not reject it, as far as I can tell.

As for turn to goo, I've always felt the spell does what it does to avoid the slippery slope of turning cyberwear to goo... well, why not a spell turn to flesh? Then your cyberware is made flesh, and then what's the GM going to do about that? Rule you don't regain essence, but the cyberware is now flesh? Abusable, you can use it to dump cyberware, cranial bombs, whatever. Rule that it just makes flesh variants of cyberware? Now they have undetectable cyberware. Basically the secondary effect of a spell like that is 'give the GM a migraine'.

This spell (wireless to orange scent) is like that. It has a potential to unlock many other issues that magic shouldn't be able to cope with. What about an area effect spell that converts any bullet into Styrofoam peanuts? Would that be a little imbalanced? How about one that turns drones into cans of beer if they enter the spell radius?

I'm not saying this isn't an original idea, I'm saying that any spell that is sustainable that turns any A into B as they enter the spell radius is something that needs to be looked at critically. Sure, turn to goo could easily be made into an area effect spell, but it wouldn't then turn anyone who walked into the sustained area into goo after you'd cast it. All you would be sustaining is the spell on the targets that were in the area when you first cast the spell. This allows your teammates to yank the choice bits of cyberware out of your target for quick resale.

So if we then use the logic above, the second you turn the wireless signals in the area of effect into puffs of orange-y scent, the sustaining would simply affect the wireless signals that were present at the time of the casting, the other signals sent after would not be affected. Your end result would be a 'dropped packet' and I doubt future tech would be very bothered by that.

I'm trying to think of any spell that technically alters things brought into the area of effect after casting has occurred, and I can't think of one. Detection spells operate somewhat like that, as long as you sustain it, you can detect things introduced into your spell range. But that spell category doesn't transform anything, really. So you could 'detect wireless'. Or you could 'transform wireless to orange-y scent', but only those signals that were in the spell radius at that time, subsequent signals would not be affected. Otherwise we open the door to area effect sustainable versions of 'slay (race)' (specific race enters area of effect, and dies) and that just gets out of hand really fast. How about an area effect sustainable heal? Sure, you can cast it, and it heals the person who's been shot, but if next pass they're shot again, they aren't then rehealed without recasting the spell.

Your better bet would be a variant of 'mob mind', 'mob mood', or 'mob control' but reworked to only affect electronic signals. Sure, you wouldn't turn the signals to a smell, but you could set them all to a 'null' signal, which would disrupt the users. Don't forget your threshold is now based off the ORT, though.
Red Fox
I can see it now.

initiative pass 1: I stay behind cover and ready my "secret weapon."
initiative pass 2: I walk out from behind cover and cast 'turn wireless signal to orange fresh scent'

enemy uses his free action to say: "what's that in your hand?"

I use my free action to grin evilly and say: "a can of air sanitizer." *cackle*
Ravor
QUOTE (Sterling)
Actually, turn to goo is described as only targeting "living tissue", so that's why clothes, gear, and cyberware don't change to goo as well. Buying cyberware with essence doesn't fundamentally alter the cyberware in question, it just allows your body to accept it and not reject it, as far as I can tell.


Then in that case I should be able to cast Powerbolt at some bloke's cyberware and only have to deal with the ORT instead of a true Restistance Test, and in theory installing Cyberware should make resisting Manabolt spells easier ala Healing, but we know that niether is the case.

QUOTE (Sterling)
As for turn to goo, I've always felt the spell does what it does to avoid the slippery slope of turning cyberwear to goo... well, why not a spell turn to flesh? Then your cyberware is made flesh, and then what's the GM going to do about that? Rule you don't regain essence, but the cyberware is now flesh? Abusable, you can use it to dump cyberware, cranial bombs, whatever. Rule that it just makes flesh variants of cyberware? Now they have undetectable cyberware. Basically the secondary effect of a spell like that is 'give the GM a migraine'.


*chuckles* Don't you see, what you fear is EXACTLY what Turn to Goo allows as it is currently described!

Because if I can design a spell that when cast at a Metahuman will only affect his flesh but not his cyberware then I can also design a spell that when cast at a Metahuman will only affect his cyberware but not his flesh.

On the other hand if they had stuck with their own Magical Theory that Cyberware paid for with Essence was considered part of the Metahuman's Pattern and couldn't be singled out with a spell, then your dreaded Cyberware to Flesh Spell either wouldn't work because it had an invalid target or would basically be another Turn to Goo spell with a slightly different FX.
Sterling
QUOTE (Ravor)
Because if I can design a spell that when cast at a Metahuman will only affect his flesh but not his cyberware then I can also design a spell that when cast at a Metahuman will only affect his cyberware but not his flesh.


Not to be a smart ass facetious jerk, but aren't those spells in the game already? Every spell with the elemental effect of lightning is pretty much able to frag cyberware up. And wouldn't Ram or similar spells also qualify?

And I know turn to goo is flawed, I was just saying that by that decision (and I'm not agreeing with it) you do half-assedly dodge around spells that can cause more headaches than not.

But if you want, the simplest solution I can come up with is that if, when casting your turn to goo spell upon me, you roll 4 or more successes (after my chance to resist), then by the ORT you've turned me into a puddle of goo, cyberlimbs and all.

Of course, that way you can't make a fast buck yanking cyberware out of goo. Now how will you afford foci?
mfb
QUOTE (WearzManySkins)
You are not as correct as you may think but please refer to Pages 173-174, spells Interference and Pulse. They both effect Wireless, but again the mage can not see them.

indeed. that's why i said "nm, area spell". area spells allow you to affect things you otherwise couldn't, because you don't need to target them--you just need to target the area you want the effect to take place in.

this spell is too powerful. the spell that it most closely resembles, Interference, has a drain code of +3, yet is less effective than this spell--rather than creating a dead zone, which is what you seem to want this spell to do, Interference only jams signals. further, it doesn't convert those signals into something semi-useful.
Ravor
QUOTE (Sterling)
Not to be a smart ass facetious jerk, but aren't those spells in the game already? Every spell with the elemental effect of lightning is pretty much able to frag cyberware up. And wouldn't Ram or similar spells also qualify?


Short answer, no, there aren't once you fix Turn to Goo and its kin.

The reason that I can say that is secondary elemental effects, whether they are the electrical surges from a Lighting Bolt fragging up your electronics or the heat of a Fireball cooking off all of your ammo are just that, secondary after effects of the spell, I can not cast Lighting Bolt at you and only affect your cyberware.

And Ram simply doesn't affect implanted Cyberware for the same reason that Turn to Goo shouldn't, because it has been paid for with Essence and Street Magic offers the following;

(Bold Facing added.)

QUOTE (Street Magic; page 159)
Mana spells work against cyber-modified beings because the cyberware was paid for with Essence and so is considered integral to the being's organic system.



QUOTE (Sterling)
And I know turn to goo is flawed, I was just saying that by that decision (and I'm not agreeing with it) you do half-assedly dodge around spells that can cause more headaches than not.


Ok, I'll bite, exactly what headaches are caused when I simply follow Shadowrun's own Magical Theory that anything paid for with Essence becomes part of the metahuman's Pattern and can't be targeted sperately?

It's by allowing exceptions like Turn to Goo that you open the can of worms of being able to target installed Cortex Bombs with Powerbolts, or why the first spell that Corp Mages are taught isn't Demolish Cyberware. Instead of fixing the hole that you claim it plugs, it actually opens it in the first place.

QUOTE (Sterling)
Of course, that way you can't make a fast buck yanking cyberware out of goo. Now how will you afford foci?


Sadly this is why I think the entire bit about not effecting Cyberware was included into Fourth's Turn to Goo, someone wanted to fullfill their wetdream of being able to loot Cyberware for a fast buck.

*Edit 1.1*

QUOTE (Sterling)
But if you want, the simplest solution I can come up with is that if, when casting your turn to goo spell upon me, you roll 4 or more successes (after my chance to resist), then by the ORT you've turned me into a puddle of goo, cyberlimbs and all.


Naw, I'd much rather learn Demolish Cyberware and then if I get 4+ Hits on the ORT all of your Cyberware is destroyed and the best part is, you don't even get a chance to resist.

See this is where Turn to Goo not affecting cyberware leads.
The Jopp
Technically speaking I see no problem for letting an Adept or Mystic adept use the ?Improved Sense? ability to see different visual spectrums. If low-light and Thermographic then Infrared and Ultraviolet vision would not be impossible either.

See here: http://www.hf.faa.gov/webtraining/VisualDi...manVisSys2a.htm

I can very well imagine a character that can see radio waves and electric waves. In the case of “seeing? radio waves I would have the character roll Perception instead of EW+Scan in order to find a specific signal.

It could make a very interesting character – a hacker that has an ability no technomancer has for example.
psykotisk_overlegen
QUOTE (Ravor @ May 29 2007, 04:30 AM)
edit: ... snip ... quoted Ravors last post


Targeting cyberware would be made more difficult by the fact that it often isn't visible.

But you still have some valid points, and "turn to goo" is a strange spell, as is "petrify". For that matter, is hair, nails and the outermost layer of the skin considered "living matter" by these spells?
Everything would be easier if the spells just stated that they changed peoples bodies to goo/calcium carbonate.





On the matter of the original spell.
You change wireless signals into another wavelength. Since this will block wireless communication it is essentially the same thing as jamming, in addition it floods a specific wavelength with numerous signals. Except for creating lots of "noise" on the specific wavelength you're changing signals to, how is this different from interference?
WearzManySkins
QUOTE (psykotisk_overlegen)
QUOTE (Ravor @ May 29 2007, 04:30 AM)
edit: ... snip ... quoted Ravors last post


Targeting cyberware would be made more difficult by the fact that it often isn't visible.

But you still have some valid points, and "turn to goo" is a strange spell, as is "petrify". For that matter, is hair, nails and the outermost layer of the skin considered "living matter" by these spells?
Everything would be easier if the spells just stated that they changed peoples bodies to goo/calcium carbonate.





On the matter of the original spell.
You change wireless signals into another wavelength. Since this will block wireless communication it is essentially the same thing as jamming, in addition it floods a specific wavelength with numerous signals. Except for creating lots of "noise" on the specific wavelength you're changing signals to, how is this different from interference?

Hmm ok. Interference is designed to block ALL RADIO COMMUNICATIONS in an area of effect. It creates a massive field of static signals to achieve this. Now whether or not Electronic Warfare can tone down the jamming provided by the spell....

My spell design does not block/stop/interfere with any radio signals, it only effects the radio spectrum that have the wireless signal band, which is a small part of the RF spectrum. The signal still gets radiated out, but due to its frequency shift, most receiving devices are not set up to deal with the new frequencies. I have said that one would need 4+ successes for this spell to affect the wireless spectrum.

Basic spell differences

Interference jams a signals, giving the users of said signals a Chance to burn thru the jamming.

My spell if it succeeds, they get no chance, just like the Turn to Goo spell, if it succeeds the target has serious issues.

Also the Pulse spell would/should momentarily interrupt a RF spectrum in the area, ie only the radiated signal, most devices should be unaffected. Again this spell uses the objects resistance checks. So for it to affect the wireless signals 4+ successes.
eidolon
In any urban area, this would pretty much just be a full time air freshener.
Cheops
QUOTE (WearzManySkins)
But this spell brings the Team concept back into place ie, with out a hacker in your team your are vulnerable to what a hacker/technomancer can do to you and your gear.

How are the mage's hackers supposed to wirelessly hack their way into an opposing team's wireless devices when the entire area around the opposing team is blocked to wireless transmissions? This makes no sense.

I have to agree with most posters on this one. It should be the same as the pre-existing spells with added FX of smell at the cost of more drain.
WearzManySkins
QUOTE (Cheops)
QUOTE (WearzManySkins @ May 29 2007, 03:10 AM)
But this spell brings the Team concept back into place ie, with out a hacker in your team your are vulnerable to what a hacker/technomancer can do to you and your gear.

How are the mage's hackers supposed to wirelessly hack their way into an opposing team's wireless devices when the entire area around the opposing team is blocked to wireless transmissions? This makes no sense.

I have to agree with most posters on this one. It should be the same as the pre-existing spells with added FX of smell at the cost of more drain.

hmmm

I listed two examples but the spell is used to "counter" any threats from technomages/hackers. That is why it is not a personal spell for me at least. You cast it into an area you "detected" enemies in.

Since your team is unaffected by the spell unless they go into the area of effect, your team should have an edge against the opposition. But this spell does not move once cast, so the opposition once they now they been hit with it, can relocate to a location unaffected by the spell.

Then there is no real reason for the spell design rules then,,,just cut and paste the current lot of spells.

But back on topic, and suggestions/points on the spell formula or drain code?

Again the latest revision of the spell has no olfactory effects.

Recapping

Manipulation Spell
Physical +1
Area +2
Sustained 0
Environmental Manipulation -2
Major Change(shift Frequency to VLF range for example) +2

Right now it is DV=(F/2)+3

Environmental change, to quote eidolon " In any urban area, this would pretty much just be a full time air freshener." That to me says such wireless is thru out the environment.

Major Change rather than minor, I see shifting the Frequency to the VLF range is a major change.

Again since I consider this spell a manipulation against Highly Processed Object you will need to have 4+ successes.
Ravor
QUOTE (psykotisk_overlegen)
Targeting cyberware would be made more difficult by the fact that it often isn't visible.

But you still have some valid points, and "turn to goo" is a strange spell, as is "petrify". For that matter, is hair, nails and the outermost layer of the skin considered "living matter" by these spells?
Everything would be easier if the spells just stated that they changed peoples bodies to goo/calcium carbonate.


Ah, but here's the rub, with the precident of Turn to Goo you wouldn't even need LOS on the Cyberware itself, just the Metahuman and let the spell merely 'ignore' everything that is 'living'.

The reason is that we know that cyber/bio paid for with Essence becomes 'part' of the metahuman, this is why a Manabolt doesn't care if you have 6.0 Essence or 0.01 Essence. This is also the same reason that you can't target a Powerbolt to only affect some bloke's cyberhand, you have to target the bloke as a whole.

<><><><><><><><><><>


WearzManySkins the problem that I see is that your spell is still basically manipulating energy, ala Alter Temperature, and I imagine that if someone posted a version of Alter Temperature that reduced everything in its area to Abusolute Zero with 1 Net Hit then they'd get a similair responce, when Magic manipulates energy it looks to me like it does so in a matter of degrees, not in a all-or-nothing fashion.
Cheops
QUOTE (WearzManySkins)
QUOTE (Cheops @ May 29 2007, 11:36 AM)
QUOTE (WearzManySkins @ May 29 2007, 03:10 AM)
But this spell brings the Team concept back into place ie, with out a hacker in your team your are vulnerable to what a hacker/technomancer can do to you and your gear.

How are the mage's hackers supposed to wirelessly hack their way into an opposing team's wireless devices when the entire area around the opposing team is blocked to wireless transmissions? This makes no sense.

I have to agree with most posters on this one. It should be the same as the pre-existing spells with added FX of smell at the cost of more drain.

hmmm

I listed two examples but the spell is used to "counter" any threats from technomages/hackers. That is why it is not a personal spell for me at least. You cast it into an area you "detected" enemies in.

Since your team is unaffected by the spell unless they go into the area of effect, your team should have an edge against the opposition. But this spell does not move once cast, so the opposition once they now they been hit with it, can relocate to a location unaffected by the spell.

Then there is no real reason for the spell design rules then,,,just cut and paste the current lot of spells.

Ahhh...now that statement makes more sense. My team can still network with each other but the other team can't unless it relocates out of its cover and possibly into the open. Your statement wasn't clear to me and implied that you could still hack them.

I think there is a use for the spell design rules. I just don't think that it is necessary when you have a spell that almost exactly mimics another except that it has a neat special effect (smell). But then again I'm in the camp that doesn't buy into your all-or-nothing approach to the spell so I just see this one as a funky Interference type spell.

The spell design rules work best when designing a spell that does NOT closely approximate another core spell.
Sterling
QUOTE (Ravor)
Naw, I'd much rather learn Demolish Cyberware and then if I get 4+ Hits on the ORT all of your Cyberware is destroyed and the best part is, you don't even get a chance to resist.

See this is where Turn to Goo not affecting cyberware leads.

Actually, there is a resist test on both petrify and turn to goo. Both require opposed tests of the caster's magic+spellcasting versus the target's body(+any counterspelling). And the kicker is the threshold is the target's body.

I think you misunderstood my point. The second you take the overall concept of turn an object into another object, the errors creep in. Sure, you can simply argue the spell targets living flesh only, so bioware is affected but not cyberware. This is the dodge the spell uses to be legal. You could indeed attempt a reverse of turn to goo that turned all cyberware on a target to say, raw iron. And you'd have the same test of magic+spellcasting versus the cyberware's base resistance (which was listen in SR3, higher grades of cyberware were much tougher) plus counterspelling, threshold equivalent to the ORT.

The pain on that spell would be you could only target the cyberware you could see, which leads us back into the whole 'but he paid essence for it' bit. I'm pretty sure the issue with this spell is that it was a 1st edition spell that was grandfathered in. The whole 'essence for cyberware' bit keeps the Samurai from getting dermal sheathing or full cyberlimbs and torsos and skulls and saying 'there's no visible meat, so you can't cast on me!'

I guess the basic breakdown is I'm on the side that 'turn to goo' as written is the lesser of two evils. I'm fully aware that it's a odd twist to the normal magic rules, but the best solution then is to simply disallow the spell. My campaigns haven't seen it in play since the old 'turn to goo, then grenade the puddle' episode which left everyone very queasy when the spell ended.

As for the whole concept of a spell that turns wireless signals into anything else that is not only sustained in an area, but has an ongoing effect on any new signals sent into the area... I'd require a significantly higher drain code if this spell was allowed in my game.
hyzmarca
Actually, the best solution is to have it turn a character's cyberware to goo, as well. This puts it in line with all the other transformation manipulations. If a spell can turn cyberware into bear-flesh I don't see why one can't turn cyberware into goo.


As for the spell in question, I'd be inclined to treat it like Interference with a fresh scent.
Cheops
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
Actually, the best solution is to have it turn a character's cyberware to goo, as well. This puts itin line with all the other transformation maniuplations. If a spell can turn cyberware into bear-flesh I don't see why one can't turn cyberware into goo.

\signed.
WearzManySkins
Well you could mode the "Turn to Goo" to "Turn Comm Link to Goo"

Area effect +2
Restrictive Target -1 only non implanted comm links

So the drain code would be (Force/2)+3

Get 4+ successes bye bye non implanted comm links.

But you could also have "Turn Firearms to Goo" biggrin.gif

WMS
laughingowl
QUOTE
Are you saying not no spell can be as effective as published spells?


Nope: but spells that are more effective then published spells should be scrutinized very carefully and probably adjusted to be in the same line as published spells. They do not need to be less effective but they shouldn't be more effective (without some corresponding drawback, higher drain, limited effect, etc)

QUOTE
Read Element Aura and wall, they create energy from nothing.


Technically no: Drain from the mage represents energy. Energy creation is not a problem. Almost all of the combat spells do it.

Now matter creation is another story.

While say 'acid' bold isn't exactly an energy, the description of the spell makes it appear as if actual 'acid' isnt created rather the energy of the spell duplicates the effects of acid on matter. Otherwise Acid bolt into say a glass container and you could 'store' the acid; however there is nothing left (save for what ever disolved glass (if any) the spell managed to do.

While some 'Ice' for example do leave water around, is this from the 'spell' or condensation from the local area from the intense spell created cold. I have always presumed the later.


QUOTE
Matter is created look at the Barrier spells. Fashion how do you think it recreats clothing, yes it transforms but so does my spell.


Wrong: Barrier is a 'force field' there is no actual matter. Fashion does re-shape / change matter but is specifcally states it can not change the 'amount' that a bikini can not become a busniess suit (unless an awful 'thin' busniess suit).

Your original spell converted energy to matter (totally different) and your modified converts one form of energy into another. Either way the above quote is irrelevant.


QUOTE
But this spell does not move once cast, so the opposition once they now they been hit with it, can relocate to a location unaffected by the spell.


Wrong: If it is a sustained spell then it can move:
Page 174 SR4
QUOTE
If an area-eff ect spell is sustained, the aff ected area may be
moved with a Complex Action, as long as it remains within line of
sight. Characters who “drop out? of the aff ected area are no longer
aff ected by the spell; characters who are “enveloped? by the area
must defend against the eff ects of the spell as appropriate.


QUOTE
Then there is no real reason for the spell design rules then,,,just cut and paste the current lot of spells.


No if creating a spell that is nothing similiar to an existing spell, then use spell design rules. If creating a Funky Green Crud Bolt. You dont use spell design rules, you take any of the existing 'type' Bolt spells and rename it, and make 'Funky Green Crud' a new elemental type.

Otherwise you hit situations like anyone sane mage that was making an 'armor' spell would ignore the wonderful 'glow like a vegas christmas tree'. So using spell design rules you could make the exact same spell withOUT this effect; however as a gm I wouldn't allow it, and wouldnt expect a gm of a game I was playing in to allow it.

I WOULD allow a modified armor say 'subtle armor' that duplicates the effect of the armor but say with a threshold of 1, and no noticable effect.
laughingowl
QUOTE
WearzManySkins the problem that I see is that your spell is still basically manipulating energy, ala Alter Temperature, and I imagine that if someone posted a version of Alter Temperature that reduced everything in its area to Abusolute Zero with 1 Net Hit then they'd get a similair responce, when Magic manipulates energy it looks to me like it does so in a matter of degrees, not in a all-or-nothing fashion.


Raver hit the nail on the head:


Transmute Heat to light:
Type Physical: +1
Range LOS(A) + 2
(won't be cheesey and try to claim restricted target)
Duration: sustained +0
Enviromental Mainipulation: -2
Major Change: +2

Drain: (f/2)+3

Heat to Light converts all heat energy in the area effect into light. While said light will 'heat' slight molecules as it passes through them, this slight heat will very rapidly be reconverted into more light and soon the area of effect reached absolute zero kelvin.

At about -195C the very air turns to liquid and at about -217C the air turns solid. As this spell would convert the area of effect to -273C (absolute zero / zero Kelvin), if sustained it would ultimately freeze all air on the planet.

An intense vortex would form around the area of effect as air is rushing in to replace the condensing air in the area effect.

The near absolute zero tempatures means anything inside the area of effect would soon be frozen solid. If somehow resisting the intense cold, the huge vortex of air would make moving out of the center of effect neigh impossible.

I leave it to the theromdynamics physicists to determine the exact effect of the world of having a force-meter radius sphere at zero degrees Kelvin (and exactly how bright the light would be) but rest assured its going to be bright and its going to be very very bad for the planet.

If the local GM doesn't B-slap you immediately expect it to be because the local Great Form Dragon is coming to pay you a visit at H's request.
Ravor
QUOTE (Sterling)
Actually, there is a resist test on both petrify and turn to goo. Both require opposed tests of the caster's magic+spellcasting versus the target's body(+any counterspelling). And the kicker is the threshold is the target's body.


Very true, living creatures get to make resistance tests, however, non-living, non-magical objects only get to use the ORT. My point is that once you have a spell that doesn't follow the magical theory then you are asking for trouble, such as being able to cast Demolish Cyberware at a metahuman and only using the ORT, even on internal cyberware.

If you can't see how the breaking the standard Magical Theory for Turn to Goo without revoking the theory itself would allow for targeting internal cyberware, then pretend that I used cybereyes/limbs instead.

Either way, I have to strongly agree with both hyzmarca and Cheops, instead of banning Turn to Goo and its kin I simply rule that it follows Shadowrun's Magical Theory and turns the target's entire body into goo, cyberware and all.

Oh and WearzManySkins I think an area version of Turn Firearms to Goo is a great idea for a spell. cyber.gif
psykotisk_overlegen
QUOTE (WearzManySkins)
QUOTE (psykotisk_overlegen @ May 29 2007, 09:05 AM)
QUOTE (Ravor @ May 29 2007, 04:30 AM)
edit: ... snip ... quoted Ravors last post


Targeting cyberware would be made more difficult by the fact that it often isn't visible.

But you still have some valid points, and "turn to goo" is a strange spell, as is "petrify". For that matter, is hair, nails and the outermost layer of the skin considered "living matter" by these spells?
Everything would be easier if the spells just stated that they changed peoples bodies to goo/calcium carbonate.





On the matter of the original spell.
You change wireless signals into another wavelength. Since this will block wireless communication it is essentially the same thing as jamming, in addition it floods a specific wavelength with numerous signals. Except for creating lots of "noise" on the specific wavelength you're changing signals to, how is this different from interference?

Hmm ok. Interference is designed to block ALL RADIO COMMUNICATIONS in an area of effect. It creates a massive field of static signals to achieve this. Now whether or not Electronic Warfare can tone down the jamming provided by the spell....

My spell design does not block/stop/interfere with any radio signals, it only effects the radio spectrum that have the wireless signal band, which is a small part of the RF spectrum. The signal still gets radiated out, but due to its frequency shift, most receiving devices are not set up to deal with the new frequencies. I have said that one would need 4+ successes for this spell to affect the wireless spectrum.

Basic spell differences

Interference jams a signals, giving the users of said signals a Chance to burn thru the jamming.

My spell if it succeeds, they get no chance, just like the Turn to Goo spell, if it succeeds the target has serious issues.

Also the Pulse spell would/should momentarily interrupt a RF spectrum in the area, ie only the radiated signal, most devices should be unaffected. Again this spell uses the objects resistance checks. So for it to affect the wireless signals 4+ successes.

So basically: your spell is better.

With the same drain code, it should be about as good. But as it is now, it's better, unless the area contains only items with low signal ratings.
As it is now I'd never allow it in my games, it does what the interference spell does, only in a slightly different way, and is a lot better at it.


Turn Commlinks to goo is another matter, since there's no spell that does something similar to that already.
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