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HappyDaze
If a magician has the Cerebral Booster bioware, is the increased Logic retained by the magician's projecting astral form?

Likewise, if the magician has the Mnemonic Enhancer bioware, is the bonus to Knowledge and Language skills available while projecting?

Is it possible to create mana-based Improved Attribute spells for Mental Attributes that will be retained by the projecting magician's astral form? The normal physical improvements are ties to the physical form and are thus useless for an astral magician.
Demerzel
I'm not sure I agree that the physical spell cast prior to projecting would not count.

As a general rule, from past memory, enhancements paid for with essence count for all aspects of magic.

I don't have any pages or anything, but that's my first impression.
Moon-Hawk
I agree. Paid for with essence, so you keep it.
Not sure about the spells.
MaxHunter
IMO: cyber, yes; spells, yes, but I wouldn't know if it needs not be physical...

Cheers,

Max
2bit
QUOTE (HappyDaze @ May 29 2007, 05:50 PM)
Is it possible to create mana-based Improved Attribute spells for Mental Attributes that will be retained by the projecting magician's astral form?  The normal physical improvements are ties to the physical form and are thus useless for an astral magician.

I would rule yes, if the spells are cast in astral space on the projected magician's form or while he is perceiving. They would follow his astral form.

Spells affect either the physical plane or astral plane, not both.
Demerzel
QUOTE (2bit)
Spells affect either the physical plane or astral plane, not both.

As a counterpoint to that statemnt. Consider, a physical combat spell cast on a projecting magican's body will damage the body and the astral form. See p.184 the While You Were Out box.
HappyDaze
I think the key point is that a physical spell can not alter the attributes of your astral form, not where it is cast. I would think that mana-based Improve Attributes - for the Mental Attributes only - should be fine in both the astral and the physical realms.
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (Demerzel)
QUOTE (2bit @ May 30 2007, 11:44 AM)
Spells affect either the physical plane or astral plane, not both.

As a counterpoint to that statemnt. Consider, a physical combat spell cast on a projecting magican's body will damage the body and the astral form. See p.184 the While You Were Out box.

I think this just made up my mind. So the astral form would not be a valid target for the casting of a physical health spell, however the comatose physical form would be a valid target, and the astral form would benefit (or suffer) the effects of the spell as appropriate.
2bit
QUOTE (Demerzel)
As a counterpoint to that statemnt. Consider, a physical combat spell cast on a projecting magican's body will damage the body and the astral form. See p.184 the While You Were Out box.

Actually no - the astral form doesn't take damage that the body receives. The projecting magician feels the pain, but won't actually receive damage until the body and spirit are reunited. This is how the spirit is able to persist after the body dies, and vice versa.

Edit: This is also why you can't heal an astrally projecting magician by casting Heal on their comatose body.
Moon-Hawk
You can't? Shoot. Okay, I'm back to being confused.
Eryk the Red
I was under the impression that there is no difference between harm to the astral form and harm to the body. They share the same condition monitor. It's not that attacks against the body also affect the astral form; it's that there's no difference between the two once the damage is suffered.
2bit
Well, that's my interpretation anyway :-/ They definintely share damage before projection - if you have 3 boxes of damage when you project, your astral form has 3 boxes of damage on it - but if you say they share damage while separated, then I don't see how a projecting magician can live for Magic X 2 hours if the body takes two rounds in the heart or something. The projecting magician floats around with all the boxes on its condition monitor filled? I don't buy it.
Demerzel
From that While You Were Out box I refered to:

QUOTE (SR4 p.184)
Any damage inflicted to one form immediately affects the other.
Moon-Hawk
Ahhh, mental tranquility.
Demerzel
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)
Ahhh, mental tranquility.

Now, being highly adverse to mental tranquility, how does this work?

QUOTE
If the magician’s physical
body dies, the astral body continues to
project on the astral plane for a number of
hours equal to her Magic attribute x 2 before
fading into nothingness. Should the astral
body die, the physical body falls irretrievably
into a deep coma since it has no mind
and no spirit.


Hoes does only one die when they both take damage?

Oh yuck (new thought): Does that mean that your physical condition monitor in Astral Space is based on your Astral body and can therefore be different from your physical condition monitor in Physical Space? Oh the humanity!
Moon-Hawk
Aaah, cognitive dissonance!
Well, if the body is dead, and thus the link to the body is severed, then the body is no longer forcing the astral to be damaged. So it ceases to be damaged.
A cop-out? Perhaps. But hey, it mostly only matters to PCs anyway, and probably makes a better plot device this way.
2bit
Back to the original topic, though, I don't think the Increase Attribute (Mental) spell would work for increasing astral stats by casting it on the mage's physical body. It's a sustained effect happening on the physical plane, and the mage's mind and spirit are no longer on the physical plane. Hence, the spell ceases to affect him when he projects.

Would you allow an Increase Attribute (Body) spell cast on the astral plane on a projecting magician's astral form to affect his body on the physical plane (if it was a mana spell)? of course not.

And would you really let someone cast Heal on a magician's body and have it heal their astral form?? I think that's crazy talk. eek.gif
Demerzel
Well, first off I would suggest casting the increase stat spell prior to projecting, when it's affecting the whole rather than the body or the astral form seperately.

However it is not clear that an effect on one such as a spell does not affect the other, while it is clear that there is a link.

As to allowing healing on the Body to affect the Astral form I'd have to say that it's a two way street, if Damage works why can't healing?
Moon-Hawk
I think it's probably easier to just go with the blanket statement of what affects one affects the other. If you hurt/heal/affect one, the effects will be felt on the other, through the link.
Death is the singular exception, because all of the above works because of the link, and death is the loss of that link, so the rules are a little different. Why not just have the astral form instantly dissappear if the body dies? Because the persisting astral form is a great plot device, that's why. smile.gif
darthmord
QUOTE (2bit)
QUOTE (HappyDaze @ May 29 2007, 05:50 PM)
Is it possible to create mana-based Improved Attribute spells for Mental Attributes that will be retained by the projecting magician's astral form?  The normal physical improvements are ties to the physical form and are thus useless for an astral magician.

I would rule yes, if the spells are cast in astral space on the projected magician's form or while he is perceiving. They would follow his astral form.

Spells affect either the physical plane or astral plane, not both.

I don't see why not. The Increase Attribute spells (from the existing books) are physical since they affect your meat body.

I would have to say that you'd make Mana spells to affect your Astral Body.

I'd also rule that while you could cast such spells in the physical world, they do nothing for you until you entered Astral Space. Then while you are there, those spells would work for you.
Demerzel
The difference between physical and mana spells is that a physical spell can affect nonliving things. So you don't need P type to affect your physical meat. Just like a manaball can still fry you if you don't prohect.

I'm not sure there'd be a good reason to say that a Mana based increase attribute spell does not work unless you project...

Once upon a time there were physical and mana spells for increasing attributes, one was increase attribute and the other was increase cybered attribute...
ShieldT
Wait. Do Heal spells cast at an Astral Form heal it? I was under the impression Heal only heals Physical Damage and the Astral Form, if anything, was linked to Stun.
Demerzel
You still have a physical damage track and a stun damage track while astrally projecting. Heal only affects the Physical Damage Track.
pbangarth
Hmmmm....

Would an astrally perceiving adept be able to use Pain Relief on an astrally projecting person to remove Stun damage?

Demerzel
From whence does this pain relief come?

If you mean the spell in SR4 Resist Pain it does not remove damage just eliminate the modifiers. That should work with no problem, it is a Mana spell and therefore targetable on an astral form.
pbangarth
Sorry, it is the Pain Relief Adept Power on page 179 of Street Magic.

It "allows the adept to dissipate fatigue, muscle tension, and pain -- effectively healing Stun damage.... healing a number of boxes from the Stun damage track equal to the number of net hits achieved."
Lagomorph
QUOTE (pbangarth)
Sorry, it is the Pain Relief Adept Power on page 179 of Street Magic.

It "allows the adept to dissipate fatigue, muscle tension, and pain -- effectively healing Stun damage.... healing a number of boxes from the Stun damage track equal to the number of net hits achieved."

wow, nows a good time to be a magic adept
Demerzel
QUOTE (SM p.179)
This energy manipulation takes 5 minutes per damage box healed, and the adept must maintain physical contact for the Duration.


I would say you cannot have physical contact with a astral entity with no physical form.

Be that as it may, if you give some nice Shiatsu to their meatbod while they were out is another issue entirely... Keeping in mind the restriction that there is no way to heal drain.
pbangarth
Ah yes. Physical contact. That is a bit of a problem, isn't it?
fistandantilus4.0
QUOTE (Lagomorph)
QUOTE (pbangarth @ Jun 4 2007, 09:14 PM)
Sorry, it is the Pain Relief Adept Power on page 179 of Street Magic.

It "allows the adept to dissipate fatigue, muscle tension, and pain -- effectively healing Stun damage.... healing a number of boxes from the Stun damage track equal to the number of net hits achieved."

wow, nows a good time to be a magic adept

It does specifically state that the adept cnanot use the power on them selves. This existed in SOTA 64 with no such stipulation in 3rd edition. Guess they realized how powerful that was. Plus, massaging your self is a bit wonky. Hard to concentrate and relax at the same time.
laughingowl
Well it is also 5 minutes per hit.

So it is not THAT much faster then 'resting'
Magus
QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0)
QUOTE (Lagomorph @ Jun 4 2007, 04:18 PM)
QUOTE (pbangarth @ Jun 4 2007, 09:14 PM)
Sorry, it is the Pain Relief Adept Power on page 179 of Street Magic.

It "allows the adept to dissipate fatigue, muscle tension, and pain -- effectively healing Stun damage.... healing a number of boxes from the Stun damage track equal to the number of net hits achieved."

wow, nows a good time to be a magic adept

It does specifically state that the adept cnanot use the power on them selves. This existed in SOTA 64 with no such stipulation in 3rd edition. Guess they realized how powerful that was. Plus, massaging your self is a bit wonky. Hard to concentrate and relax at the same time.

Stroking off watching a Porno or the Neighbor sunbathing nude is relaxing and requires concentration to catch the details, and not get caught. Now that is the way to use Pain Relief on yourself. wobble.gif
pbangarth
QUOTE (laughingowl)
Well it is also 5 minutes per hit.

So it is not THAT much faster then 'resting'

The interval for normal healing is one hour, whereas for Pain Relief the test is done at the start and you work for 5 minute blocks for each net hit. So unless you have massive damage (which is unlikely to be healed quickly either way), you are saving half an hour or more. Surely on a run that can be important.
Aaron
Not to mention that sometimes you just need that one box healed to get rid of the dice pool mod.
laughingowl
Never said Pain Relief doesnt have a use;however I will state it is not 'that much faster' then normal healing for stun and thus not too overpowered IMO.

Also note:

Threshold of 2+ (essence loss). Means atlrast three hits to heal a box of stun. (more if cybered). Magic+Agility means (barring agility monkey cheese) 12-14 dice? (as agilty is likely to be high even if not a pure agility build). means 3-4 hits on average. with two hits (plus) lost automatically. Not going to cure the near unconcious stun and just like 'healing' it can only be done once. (and actualy worse then normal healing, taking more stun isnt the 'fix') but "until the remaining stun damage is healed naturally".

So if it doesnt cure all the stun, then no more massages until you have zero stun.


While usefull personllay I find other things a better spend for the full power point. (now a well made physical therapist, could make alot of money)
Demerzel
Implants cause a dice pool penalty not an increase in threshold. That's a big difference...
laughingowl
Thats right my bad from memory there.

So a fixed threshold of 2.

Still that means you need an average of 9 dice to get one box of stun healed. So again unless you want a very silly Agility monkey maximizer, you are looking at 2-3 stun healed (4-5 hits total).

If you can stop for 10-15 minutes to give yourself a massage in the middle of the run, I dont see anything overpowered with that.

I WISH my players would take 15 minutes of downtime during a run smile.gif
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