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laughingowl
Turn Floor to whipcream!

Type: Physical +1
Range: LOS-Area +2
Duration Sustain: + 0
Physical Maniupulation +0
Major Change: +2


Drain: (F/2) + 5


This spell turns a a section of floor / ground into a substances with the physical properties of whipped cream.

A cylinder force meters in diamter and force meters deep is affected. Note this really only works outside or places where the 'floor' is meters thick.


Great for opening 'pits' under people. while not directly effecting the people (thus no counterspelling) having a pit of whip cream open up underneath them certainly puts a dampner on their actions (and likely causes visiblity / movement issues (and possibly failing damage).

Kyoto Kid
...now we just need the transform objects to Strawberries (area effect).

[edit]
Better yet Turn Beings to Strawberries

mmmm strawberries.....whipped cream...ahhhhhhhh! lick.gif
odinson
It can still be counterspelled can't it? The mage would have to have delayed his action, unless he specifically stated he was protecting the floor underneath him, and then he would roll counterspelling and reduce your net hits.
laughingowl
QUOTE (odinson)
It can still be counterspelled can't it? The mage would have to have delayed his action, unless he specifically stated he was protecting the floor underneath him, and then he would roll counterspelling and reduce your net hits.

Odinson:

While I agree with you:

1) How many mages go around delaying their actions.... First time it is going to catch them... perhaps not the later times, but first time YES.


2) Technically no....
QUOTE

A magician can use Counterspelling to defend herself and others against a spell being cast. To do this, the magician must spend a Free Action and declare who she is protecting.  If Counterspelling was not declared in advance, it may not be used to defend others, unless the magician has delayed her action (see Delayed Actions, p. 134). A protected character must also stay within the magician’s line of sight in order for Counterspelling to be used. Note that a magician can always use Counterspelling to defend herself, unless surprised.

When a protected character is targeted with a spell, she rolls Counterspelling dice in addition to the appropriate attribute (Body or Willpower) for the resistance test. Hits generated on this test reduce the net hits of the spell’s caster as with any Opposed Test. If multiple protected characters are targeted by the same spell, the  counterspelling dice are rolled only once and each target is protected equally.

If more than one magician protects a target with Counterspelling, handle it as teamwork (see p. 59). 

Note that Counterspelling is not “used up? aft er it defends
against a spell—it continues to protect the designated characters against other spells until the magician decides to end it. 

A magician who is actively Counterspelling can even defend against spells she is unaware of—specifi cally, Detection spells and Illusion spells—as the magician is actively “jamming? the mana around him. Th is does not mean, however, that the magician is aware such spells are being used. Th e gamemaster should make a secret Magic + Intuition (3) Test to determine if (and to what extent) the magician noticed the defense.



The rules consitantly refer to 'character', as written it appears that counterspelling applies to entities not objects.

Now personally I agree and would allow a mage to declare they are providing counterspelling to objects (if they can see said object, though only the most parnoid is going to constnatly go around protecting the floor.

Now I do also allow a mage to 'protect' objects on a person.

If Mage is providing Spell Defense to the sammy. If mage can see Sammie's gun, I presume they are providing spell defense to it (though this admitedly is a house rule)
PBTHHHHT
Combine this spell with the mass orgy spell and pull up some trid cams and you're in business for the next girl's gone wild industry.
laughingowl
PBTHHHHT:

You might want to check out my Living only please! spell.

Wash those clothes right out of the way.
IvanTank
laughingowl:

With all these odd spells you are suggesting, do I even want to know what type of mage you are creating?
Vertaxis666
On a more serious note. This spell would be deadly to anyone who sank below the surface of the cream. They wouldn't have any air to breath, and they wouldn't be buoyant enough to swim to the surface.
Lagomorph
If you stop sustaining, are the people buried under ground?
mfb
i'm not sure counterspelling wouldn't work. i mean, it works on fireball, even though you don't cast fireball on anyone--you just make a certain area explode into horrible flame. the only difference between this spell and fireball is that it has no effect on air, and whipped cream doesn't generally leave third-degree burns.
ShieldT
QUOTE (mfb)
i'm not sure counterspelling wouldn't work. i mean, it works on fireball, even though you don't cast fireball on anyone--you just make a certain area explode into horrible flame.

Point biggrin.gif
laughingowl
QUOTE (IvanTank)
laughingowl:

With all these odd spells you are suggesting, do I even want to know what type of mage you are creating?

The I was stuck at work, the other threads on the mage vs. Wifi threads got me thinking of spell design.


Well late a night, bored at work, and .PDF copies of you books ae a dangerous thing.


Then again: The Corrode Object, Shape Any one Object, and Elemental Armor I would strongly consider as spells.

The others were more fun, though could see some possibliity for them
Kyoto Kid
...for some reason, Turn Floor to Whipped Cream seems so, Harlequin. I could actually see him using it.
hyzmarca
Personally, I think that spells which allow you to transform part of an object into another material set a bad precedent. Transform Building to Whipcream makes more sense than Transform Floor to Whipcream.

Such spells boarder on called shots, which is certainly not possible with direct spells.
Eleazar
QUOTE (laughingowl @ May 29 2007, 09:34 PM)
Great for opening 'pits' under people.  while not directly effecting the people (thus no counterspelling)  having a pit of whip cream open up underneath them certainly puts a dampner on their actions (and likely causes visiblity / movement issues  (and possibly failing damage).

This isn't DnD, and there is no such thing as Spell Resistance in SR4. Counterspelling would still apply as long as the mage said he was using "active" counterspelling. Which continually manipulates the mana around those that are protected. I don't have a page number for you, but I think it might be in Street Magic. "Active" counterspelling also allows a mage to counterspell spells he isn't even aware of.

EDIT: In case you were wondering, this was the game mechanic that was created so mages could counterspell illusions and other spells like them that a mage would never have the chance to be aware of if it were targeted at their teammates.
ShieldT
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
Personally, I think that spells which allow you to transform part of an object into another material set a bad precedent. Transform Building to Whipcream makes more sense than Transform Floor to Whipcream.

Such spells boarder on called shots, which is certainly not possible with direct spells.

Hmm, area effect. Maybe it's not so much targeting the floor as an seperate entity, but targeting the materials that make it up...

By floor you mean wood, concrete, plascrete, earth, ceramic, etc? Might work better as 'Turn Building Materials and Earth in Affected Area to Whipcream'.

That way it can work on walls and ceilings too biggrin.gif
laughingowl
QUOTE (Eleazar)
QUOTE (laughingowl @ May 29 2007, 09:34 PM)
Great for opening 'pits' under people.  while not directly effecting the people (thus no counterspelling)  having a pit of whip cream open up underneath them certainly puts a dampner on their actions (and likely causes visiblity / movement issues  (and possibly failing damage).

This isn't DnD, and there is no such thing as Spell Resistance in SR4. Counterspelling would still apply as long as the mage said he was using "active" counterspelling. Which continually manipulates the mana around those that are protected. I don't have a page number for you, but I think it might be in Street Magic. "Active" counterspelling also allows a mage to counterspell spells he isn't even aware of.

EDIT: In case you were wondering, this was the game mechanic that was created so mages could counterspell illusions and other spells like them that a mage would never have the chance to be aware of if it were targeted at their teammates.

Atually go back and read the counterspelling section. You can make a very strong argument that unlike spells which mention 'objects' or targets. Counterspelling ALWAYS refers to characters / persons / people / etc.

Also since objects dont have a resistance technically counterspelling would never be rolled.

Now it is a fairly easy (and common) house rule to allow a mage to declare an object also under protection (and I allow the mage to protect any 'possesion' of a person he is protecting) but you also have to house rule what happens.

Most likely roll counter spelling dice. Subtrat hits. Compare net HITS to object resitance threshold and see if it is effected.

But as written OBJECT never get a resitance test, which also means spell defense would never apply.
mfb
yes, but Turn Floor to Whipped Cream does affect people inside the radius of the spell--they fall, because the magically-transformed substance won't support their weight. the fact that they are directly interacting with the direct results of the spell says, to me, that counterspelling placed on people inside the radius of the spell should apply.
laughingowl
QUOTE (mfb)
yes, but Turn Floor to Whipped Cream does affect people inside the radius of the spell--they fall, because the magically-transformed substance won't support their weight. the fact that they are directly interacting with the direct results of the spell says, to me, that counterspelling placed on people inside the radius of the spell should apply.

SO by that logic if your have coutnerspelling and I shapechange into a bear and maul you, the coutnerspelling has a chance to dispel my shapechange?


Sorry, that I cant by.

If I cast a hellblast. Coutnerspelling would keep you from taking damage, but does not cnacel the spell.

If the blast is enough it very likely blows the floor / car / whatever into pieces. If you were standing on that floor, you may not have felt the least amount of heat of blast from the hellblast, but if the floor is a smoking crater, counterspelling or no counterspelling you are going to fall.


Turn Floor to whipcream does NOT affect people. Now the lack of a floor MIGHT affect people. But if I mage hand press the detonator on a claymore. Your counterspelling does NOT protect you from the claymore going off or somehow interfere with my mage hand.


Now HOUSE rules may allow a mage to declare (either as a delayed action, or as a sepll defense target) the detonator, so he could try to distrup any spells attempting to affect it, but this would be a house rule, and the existing rules provide no mechanics to aid 'objects' both in description and the fact that counterspelling adds dice to the resitance test, yet OBJECTs dont get a resistance test.
mfb
that's a good point, but shapechange is a single-target spell; therefore, anyone you attack when you've been shapechanged into a bear is not in the area of effect. moreover, the damage your claws deal when you're a bear is not a direct effect of the spell--it's an effect of you taking a swipe at someone with sharp things sticking out of your paw. you could be swiping that paw at anyone or anything, it doesn't have to be them.

the claymore example is a no-go--the claymore's explosion is not a direct result of the spell, it's an effect of the claymore's design.

turn floor to whipped cream does directly affect people in the area of effect, because it affects the structure they're standing on. if you hellblast the floor out from under someone, that's a secondary effect--the flames you created burnt things. if you had a spell that created a substance that converted floor material to whipped cream, that would not be subject to counterspelling.
laughingowl
QUOTE (mfb)
that's a good point, but shapechange is a single-target spell; therefore, anyone you attack when you've been shapechanged into a bear is not in the area of effect. moreover, the damage your claws deal when you're a bear is not a direct effect of the spell--it's an effect of you taking a swipe at someone with sharp things sticking out of your paw. you could be swiping that paw at anyone or anything, it doesn't have to be them.

the claymore example is a no-go--the claymore's explosion is not a direct result of the spell, it's an effect of the claymore's design.

turn floor to whipped cream does directly affect people in the area of effect, because it affects the structure they're standing on. if you hellblast the floor out from under someone, that's a secondary effect--the flames you created burnt things. if you had a spell that created a substance that converted floor material to whipped cream, that would not be subject to counterspelling.

the Falling example is a no-go--the falling is not a direct result of the spell, it's an effect of gravity.


Tecnically the people 'affected' do not need to be in the area of effect. They are 1 micron above the area of effect which is the substance below them.

Spell defense specifically does not 'jam' the spell, rather it jams/interferes with the spell interacting with an aura.

Since if five people are in the area of effect, and 4 of them have spell defense, then the 5 still takes the full effect.


Likewise:

Fireball into a gas refinery.

Even if the mage is protecting himself with counterspelling, if the fireball cooks off the surronding gas tanks and they explode mage is fried.

Or:

Ram Floor:

If you cast ram on the floor beneath the character, regardless of their spell defense, if the floor is shattered they are going to fall.

Some times targeting other things are far more effective then targeting what you want to hurt.
mfb
QUOTE (laughingowl)
Tecnically the people 'affected' do not need to be in the area of effect. They are 1 micron above the area of effect which is the substance below them.

that's impossible. area spells don't work that way. the mage has to have LOS on the center of the effect--you can't start the spell at ground level and have it extend underground without having it extend an equal distance above ground.

the only reason the person falls when they step on the whipped cream is that they are directly interacting with the direct effects of your spell. that's no different from catching fire when you cast fireball on the area around them.

ram floor is, again, a targeted spell--you target the floor with it; anyone standing on the floor is out of the area of effect.
laughingowl
Yet Shape Element allow is an area affect spell that allows one to shape an element specifically to dig a hole and or create a door.

It is IMPOSSIBLE to see below the firsr mcron of the elment yet it is able to creat a hole. so it is clearly possible to effect area if it is a defined object.

By the rules for Shape Element, while I most certainly could not affect (at once) the entire Statue of Liberty (being large then the area of effect) I can make her topless and shift so of the flowing robes to make her even more buxom. I certainly can not 'see' all of the concrete I am effecting but it is part of a whole and can be effected (even if I could not effected ALL of it at once).

Seeing the floor would be no different. While I certainly couldnt turn the whole building to whipcream I could turn a part of it to whipcream even more then I could 'directly' see since I can see the building.

With Shape Element as an example I dont see why it would be possible to transform object (in this case floor) or a portiion of an object as long as you can see a porition (not all of it).

Heck even with shape element it is debatable you could make a pit for somebody to fall in., You are able to move a volume (never specifies) (but potentially force meters radius) hits meters per turn. Moving 6M radius sphere of dirt from below somebody to a Cylinder 4-6 meters (hits) above the 'ground' level) would mean a fall of say 6 meters and a 'wall of up to about 12 meters (with the first 6 meters being thick (the actual ground) and then the next 6m possibly being only a few inches.

No rules are given for what happens to a person standing on the dirt being moved, but considering unless they are allowed to move (and somehow move past/through the moving dirt) or they can fly, they are going to fall.

Turning the floor into something with the constancy of whipcream doesnt seem that much different than causing it to rise up into a huge column.
mfb
i don't have access to SM atm, so it's somewhat difficult to debate. but here's why your interpretation of the rules is a bad idea: what happens when someone creates a Turn Air to Fire spell? the drain on Fireball is +5, just like Turn Air to Fire would be. same drain, but one of them denies those affected by it the chance to counterspell. guess which one i'd learn, if i were a mage?
laughingowl
QUOTE (mfb)
i don't have access to SM atm, so it's somewhat difficult to debate. but here's why your interpretation of the rules is a bad idea: what happens when someone creates a Turn Air to Fire spell? the drain on Fireball is +5, just like Turn Air to Fire would be. same drain, but one of them denies those affected by it the chance to counterspell. guess which one i'd learn, if i were a mage?

Well might not be too effective (as long as the runners have some place to breathe and/or can get out of the area.

'Fire' isn't necessarily that dangerous. I would probably say that anything in the area has to soak 1 fire damage per hit. So every a force 6 spell would be a maximum of 6 damage to soak (from fire). and very nice pyrotechnics.

Now suffocating might be more of a problem (especially if in an enclosed area) but that is still long enough to give the targets plenty of chance to do something about it.

Just like turning the floor into nothing.

Just like 'acccident' power of spirits. In and of itself they are relatively harmless. Howver if used creatively and/or in the right spots could be very effective.


And if you don't have SM with you how about the main book:

{quote]Ice Sheet (Environmental, Area)
Type: P • Range: LOS (A) • Duration: I • DV: (F ÷ 2) + 3
This spell creates a slippery sheet of ice over the area
of effect. Characters crossing the ice must make an Agility
+ Reaction Test with a threshold equal to the hits scored
to avoid falling prone. Vehicles must make a Crash Test (p.
159). The sheet melts at a rate of 1 square meter per minute
in normal temperatures.[/quote]

From my take of the rule Spell Defense wouldnt help here as there is no resitance test (not if a mage could take an action to 'dispell' but thats totally different).

Now this particular one the characters do get a listed chance to avoid (and perhaps it would be fair to give them an agility+reachtion test to jump away from the floor as it turns to whipcream), but don't see how counterspelling would help.


Likewise:

Physical Barrier:

Put in front of a character. Does counterspelling allow them to run through the barrier like it doesnt exist?

There is no resistance test, Spell Defense (as written) doesn't apply. Do you suddenly allow the counterspelling mage to weaken the barrier before the character smashes into it? or does the character get a bloody nose?

Here Spell Defense (IMO) would have even a more logical help, since 'magic' is directly impacting the character. However as written there is no resitance test, so spell defense would have no effect.

Likewise:

Turn to goo: cast on the PILOT of the plane while character is in the back (pilot not visible). Spell Defense surely doesn't help the character in the back. As the pilot turns to goo and the plane goes out of control.

laughingowl
and for the record:

Shape [Material] (Environmental, Area)
Type: P • Range: LOS (A) • Duration: S • DV: (F ÷ 2) + 3
This spell allows the caster to move and shape a volume
of a specified element or material (air, earth, water, fire, mud,
lava, plasteel, concrete, tar, etc.) within range. The caster must
beat the material’s Object Resistance threshold (p. 174, SR4).
The material can be moved and reshaped in any way the caster
desires, at a maximum Movement Rate of (net hits) meters
per turn. Loose material can be moved and re-shaped easily,
but material that is connected or reinforced (such as walls
or other material part of a structure) must be broken apart
by reducing its Structure rating by Force points per Combat
Turn. This spell allows the caster to rapidly dig holes, redirect
streams, fill balloons, create a path through a fire, construct
a barricade, or create a doorway where one didn’t exist before.
Each element/material requires a separate spell (Shape
Sand, Shape Ice, Shape Wood, Shape Concrete, and so on).
Elements or materials reshaped by the caster remain in that
form when the spell ends. If that form cannot be supported
by the material, it will collapse. The material/element can also
be spread out, extinguished, or evaporated; for example, a fire
could be extinguished by reducing the Power by the caster’s
Spellcasting hits each turn.
mfb
dude, turn to goo is a single-target spell, and the plane going down is, at best, a secondary effect of the spell. we've already talked about both of those.

QUOTE (laughingowl)
'Fire' isn't necessarily that dangerous. I would probably say that anything in the area has to soak 1 fire damage per hit. So every a force 6 spell would be a maximum of 6 damage to soak (from fire). and very nice pyrotechnics.

suffocation? it would fill their lungs with fire, man. i suppose if your lungs are covered in 2nd-degree burns, you'd probably suffocate, but i wouldn't say there's much you could do about it.

as for ice sheet... hm. the fact that it gives a resistance test--not spell resistance, but resistance all the same--satisfies me. what i want to avoid is spells with potentially harmful effects that don't provide any means for victims to resist, which is how the whipped cream spell is currently written up. barrier, likewise, gives a resistance test of sorts--all you have to do is punch a big enough hole in the spell.
laughingowl
QUOTE
dude, turn to goo is a single-target spell, and the plane going down is, at test, a secondary effect of the spell. we've already talked about both of those.



Falling IS a secondary effect of the floor no longer existing. The spell in no way cause you to fall. Now the fact the floor is no longer thier (the pilot is no longer their) to hold you up (to fly the plane) is not directly related to the spell.


Ok so then the best thing to do, is if a whipcream pit is opened up under your feet give you a reaction+agility test (like mentioned above) to jump out from the pit as the ground goes soft.

And the 'flame' in doesnt necessarily cause any damage. 'Flame' can occur at very low tempatures depending on the substance oxidizing and the current pressure. If the spell is directly causing damage (the flame is hot enough to damage) then it would defiantly be dodgable as per an indirect area effect combat spell.

Now if the spell was directly causing an effect, but more perhaps was no longer causing an affect. (such as no oxygen to breathe, or no support under your feet), this would not be a direct affect of the spell (and in myopinion) not something that spell defense could help with.

Likewise:

Clean (water):

If used on a saltwater aquarium (small enough to be purifed). While it would not (in my opinion) get rid of the fish in the aquarium, it would effectively kill them, as all of the salt would we purfied out of the water (have to really debate if the dissolved oxygen would be 'purified' though by description it would be pure water (H2O) left. Saltwater fish will not survive very long in fresh water.


Likewise:

Animate (or Mass Animate):

If I animate the SKI lift you are riding on and cause it to 'let' go (or move 1" down from the cable), Does your spell defense help? If so how, all I have to do is beat the object resistance threshold. and I can move the object.

If your 'it's a single target spell), then ok Mass Animate and I make ALL the ski lift chairs move away from the cable.


There a plenty of spells that effect 'objects' that could be detrimental to people. So in that regard Turn floor to whipcream isnt out of line.

Now the only question is what exactly happens when cast. One possible response is the process of turning is over the pass/phase. Such that anyone that isnt helpless could take their movement and possibly move off (or perhaps get a reaction+agility to move off), before the turning is complete.

So it could be used to create an obstacle for pursuit, but it would be difficult to create it 'under' somebody.
hyzmarca
Shape [Material] is a bit different from Turn [Thing] to [Other Thing].

Shape [Material] requires that the magician actually take action to direct the shape of the material and there is an absolute limit to the amount of shaping that can be done in a single combat turn. Turn [Thing] to [Other Thing] spells have always been single target and they change the entire target instantly without any input from the magician.
laughingowl
hyzmarca:

Agree Shape X and Turn X to Y are different.

However: how does that apply to: Does spell defense somehow keep X from changing to Y.

Shape can "spread out, extinguished, or evaporated" so if I 'spread out / evaporate" the ice the players are walking on. Do they fall, does 'their' spell defense apply and somehow keep the ice from dissapearing under them (or under the entire area? thus one persons spell defense makes the spell has no effect, since even if it protected the ice 'directly' underneath the person, the small disc of ice would certainly.

With both shape material (as a sustain 'takes an action) or Clean Element, we have spells that can affect an area of soemthing but not necessarily 'all' of something.

Clean Water, cast on Pugent Sound with enough hits (probably 4-5) would create a sphere of clean water, though unless the casters magic rating is high enough to impress Harlequin himself, then they arent cleaning all of the sound.

Likewise: Clean air. Would clear the CS gas out of a sphere, but if a large area had been gassed, there would be a sphere of 'clean' air in the otherwise gassed field.

That seems to give the possibilty of a 'Open hole in wall (or floor)' or turn section of ground into something else.

So question is how would these be handled.
Demon_Bob
I was envisioning a large surface area 1mm deep.
So it would create a slippery Whip Cream Surface on top of whatever floor existed.
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