@Random I could have phrased that better. The cops won't keep dedicated personel on most cases indefinitly. However if they get a lead they'll fire things up and persue it. A corp with no bottom line advantage might well not follow up on a lead if one dropped in their lap. They also wouldn't waste any favors or clout to get LS to hunt them.

I think kzt had it right with trying to minimize heat. I don't think it's just that just because there is a J involved the amount of heat goes down. But if you think about it realistically they tend to.

First there's what mfb is talking about.

Secondly you avoid having to fence unique goods. In the nail polish example runners could go and steal it just because. But it's going to be tricky fencing something like that without getting caught by people looking for nail polish forumla theves.

Third just flip through some adventures. Ok I just read the new sr mission "critical care". Technically lots of crimes will likely be done by the players by the end, but I don't expect the fuzz to start a manhunt for them. ditto for most adventures, both published and many of the ones I run.

And fourth I think at some level there would be difference. All the big corps use runners NONE of the corps want freelancers robbing them out there.




Back on topic I agree strongly that varying pay is a good thing. Along with varying length of the runs and whatnot. After a couple convoluted plots sometimes the players just want to go beat up some gangers for a bit without all the twists.

As a rule of thumb I give out about 1K per karma point in my runs. This keeps the runners happy and poor so they have to keep on running the next week. I guess it helps that I encourage them to go to bars and drink away their paychecks as well.

...

Just a thought, maybe that is why Mr. J likes to meet in a bar. Get the runners to waist their money from the last run, make them more desperate, add in a depressant (alcohol), and bang the perfect expendable (yet sudo-renewable) resource.

Here's a list from the Shadowrun Companion 3rd Ed:

Assasination: 5000¥
Bodyguard/Security: 200/day¥
Burglary: 2000¥
Courier Run: 1000¥
Datasteal: 20% of the data's value
Distraction: 1000¥
Destruction: 5000¥
Enforcement: 1000¥
Encryption/Decryption: 200¥ per MP
Extraction: 20,000¥
Hacking: 1000¥ x Host Security Value
Investigation: 200¥/day
Smuggling Run: 5000¥

These were listed as the lowball figures for the runs. Basically, this is what a run of the specified type would be like if that was ALL there was to it and there was absolutely nothing wrong. A 1000¥ Courier Run would be strictly "Here's the package. Take it to 1234 Main Street and give it to the doorman." If runs were that easy, it wouldn't be any fun now would it? Most runs are going to involve things that fit into one or two of those categories.

Now, I've always thought those figures were VERY, VERY low. I've used those as a very rough guideline per person (except for extractions). Also keep in mind what is said in the Sprawl Survival Guide. The more help a Johnson gives you, the less he should have to pay you. If the Johnson says "Go here and do this. Have fun!", then you should get the full rate. But if the Johnson comes up with the blueprints, access codes, and other things that would be very useful, then they should get less because that's less work they have to do.

Another guideline was to assume the characters would go on about one run per month in-game time. Therefore, the Companion suggested paying characters enough to pay for one month's lifestyle plus enough to cover any gear expended.

Now, that's what the books say. I'm always much more generous with both karma and cash because, frankly, what's the point of having all these cool abilities and gear in the game if your players never get a chance to use any of it? I make sure to pay the characters enough to discourage the typical loot the corpse mentality of some other games (*COUGH*D&D*COUGH*) because it's not nearly as feasible in Shadowrun. I mean are you going to haul 10 SMGs around with you while you're trying to sneak into the plant just because they're worth a grand on the black market and they happened to be on the sec guards you shot? Hell, I've had players talking about cutting out cyberware to take with them to sell...I can tell you I put a stop to that VERY fast in-character. Sec guards tend to react badly when they walk up on someone carving up their buddy's corpse...

The Abstruse One

It isn't just organized crime that plays that way though. There are two major ways to respond to a run being perpetrated against your organization, and a logical argument can be made either way. Here they are:

Argument 1: Don't go after the Runners.

Seriously, who cares? They got what, 50,000 ? Just fire someone and replace them with a temp worker from Bihar. It's not even a deal.

Actually paying money to go after them would almost certainly entail more than 50 grand. Worse, chances are that the runners already spent that money on Red Worm (a red flavored tequila beverage) and hookers. You aren't seeing a .01 coin on your investment. Chances are that the runners were hired by your rivals to sabotage you, so every you spend chasing them down is making the investment of your competitors better.

Argument 2: I want them Dead.

It's only money. Your opponents are also each other's opponents, it's every man for himself. As soon as they see weakness, even a knick in the armor around the heel, they'll tear into you like a pack of starved hyennas. It aint pretty, but you've got to show strength.

It doesn't matter if you're down to your last , you've got to keep your shoes polished and your grin smug. If someone starts some shit with you, you've got to throw that poo right back. It's not about the bottom line, it's about staying alive. And that means that you've got to keep everyone convinced that you'd rather die than let them push you around.

Otherwise they'll push you around.

Essentially the first argument is based on hope and the second argument is based on fear. If you look to the future and see rising stock dividends until the sun stops chasing the moon, you're probably going to do a quick cost/benefit analysis on tracking down runners and give it up as a sucker's bet to throw you off track. If you look to the future and see a bunch of hungry sharks waiting for you to lose your strength for swimming - then you're going to lash out like a caged animal every time someone looks at you funny.

Interesting that Lofwyr ascribes to the second philosophy.

-Frank

Which reminds me some corps are more vicious than others. SK and Aztec being more likely to go that extra mile for payback.

However the security services are also corps. And subject to competition.

If true freelance runners are just doing runs, the big corps don't really care. Someones bottom line goes down, someones bottom line goes up. And the person whose bottom line went up is probably in a better position to determine whether a city contract gets renewed.

However if runners are just looting corps for cash then everyones bottom line is going down. If the corps figure out that's what's up, and the runners are getting away with it, suddenly the LS brass is sweating a little bit more at board meetings when talk of Knight Errant comes up. True the heat will die down if the runners stop, but if they keep it up the heat will stay on them until at some point LS figures out that the cost to dedicate resources to actually really go after them is worth it to reduce the risk of contract loss.

Regardless though, most Shadowruns at the table aren't, in my experience, just stupid run and guns anyway. And the heat from those runs is often little.

i dunno--if you feel like you have to go after anybody that opens their eyes at you, there's still no real percentage in going after the runners most of the time. the runners, after all, are just a symptom--they got hired by somebody, and that's who you need to be going after. tracking down the runners gets you nothing: it's not revenge, because the runners didn't really hurt you; they're just the tool someone else used. it's not a show of strength, because runners are below you in the power structure. it's not a warning--at least, it's not the warning you want; you might convince some runners to not accept jobs against you, but you're going to convince a lot more runners to not accept jobs from you. all going after the runners does is show you to be petty and scared.

Lofwyr is a special case. he's a special case because he's completely insane. his lifetime is measured in millennia, and yet he's willing to risk it in frequent battles against dangerous opponents for relatively tiny gains. yes, he's badasser than anybody else he's come up against, but being badasser does not guarantee victory--one lucky shot, and it's over. if Lofwyr were a human, he'd be a freakishly sensitive attention whore stuntman who knifes half the people he meets for imagined offenses and scares the crap out of the other half by threatening to. when he isn't waving a knife in somone's face, he'd spend his time doing things like crossing Niagra Falls on a unicycle while blindfolded. the only thing anyone would be able to think, when they look at him, is "how is it possible for that man to still be alive?"

the best analogy i can think of, for Lofwyr, is an investment banker who has a billion dollars to spend. he could, if he wanted, just salt it away in a diverse bunch of stable long-term investments and soak up the interest. that's what most IEs and GDs do. Lofwyr? he dumps it into high-risk, high-return stocks. he's insane because one miscalculation means he'll lose everything; he's a genius because he hasn't yet made that one miscalculation. kinda reminds me of New Rose Hotel--Lofwyr is all edge.

I see Lofwyr as a Myspace user who invites everybody to be his friend and then sends them scathing personal messages when they refuse. Maybe even going so far as finding out where they live, hunting them down and killing them.

One little detail -
The corp or whoever you just hit might chase you in an attempt to trace back to the original sponsor. You might be the only link they have, and to hit back at who hurt them they would need to capture and most likely hurt the runners (torture anyone?).

I think the "bottom line" part of a corp going after runners is the idea that if runners know it's bad news to hit you they may turn down the job or at least wrangle more cash out of the J, which may cause negotiations to break down.

Is it worth it? SK thinks so, other corps don't seem to so much. Just different "business models"

From a GM point of view I do like having the corps have different characters. (I run SR4 rules at a point in the SR2 timeline currently).

I play them as the following(not neccesarily 100% with published but I find variety in play nice).

SK - High tech and high vengence. Less likely to play soft with security(it's generally better for the hit corp to catch the runners alive, SK would rather the runners not try in the first place)

Aztechnology - more magic and paracritters in their defense. Also have a solid vengance policy, and they've got plenty of uses for prisoners

Renraku- big boys in town. Not as likely to go after you preportionally. However they have more resources right there, and in this time they're heavy in the matrix so if you make yourself low fruit you're plucked. Also fairly racist.

Ares - typically better security with some surprises. Less likely to come after you later than some corps but more likely to respond quickly to whatever you do. (if you aren't out fast KE troops may be in your way).

Mitshuma - drones. Also very tight with the Yakuzza, which can potentially make things interesting fast.

Shiawase - Light on the military assets and defense. More frequently resort to hiring shadowruners.

Fuchi- Good inteligence, due to matrix presence, and lots of twisted convoluted infighting.

Yamatetsu - Lots of metahumanity. Occasionally surprises from russia.

Well not sure which aspect to apply to him (ok I think I do and so do you probably) but there could be two reasons:


1) Doesnt want to put 'others' at risk, when he can do it better /safer. The good ole lead from the front.

2) As mentioned sitting in the boardroom is boring. How many police oficers (soliders, etc) now adays 'qualify' for a promotion to a deskjob, yet turn down the promotions so they can stay in the field.

KZT:
Perfectly possible. Then again there are two more possibilities, even assuming the target knows the runners have no idea who hired them.
First they might hope to get some leads either from the runners or tracing back to the fixer
Secondly in the absence of the real sponsor they might decide to send the pain just as far along the food chain as they can, which would likely be the runners again.

Also it is possible their security might want to interrogate them to find out just how they got in.

If a GM wanted the corp to pursue the runners a little longer to make things exciting I'm sure there are other options too. It would be a shame if the team felt they were safe after the run ended after all, grin.

It says in the rules to give them enough to pay rent. which in my opinion is BS, especially when you can have one guy on the street and the other luxery.

find something in the middle (keeping in mind that the money is split amongst them), and make it so they have to do more than one mission to get by (rent, ammo, gear, drugs, etc.) maybe things on the side.

if it's a huge dangerous mission, then forget what I said, if all the characters share a huge amount of risk they deserve some cold hard cash. it's the least you can do for making the guy who get's plugged to create a new character.

Actually a corp would care about a run. They have reps too. If they get hit, they'll want to find out who did it and retaliate against the sponsor to teach them a lesson. It may be altering the formula for the nail polish so that instead of altering to match the person's mood it gets increadibly warm and eventuallly burns of the fingers. That way the sponsor gets into a load of legal trouble (aka lawsuits) and a bad rap. This causes thier stock to plummet, resulting in the orignal corp buying out the sponsor. Afterwards they release thier formula, double the price of the new nail polish, and some exec gets a nice bonus.

The corp would try to go after the runners for information (or their contacts depending on how careful the PCs have been). If just to get an idea of who the Johnson was. If there was no Johnson it and it is freelance job, the Shadowrunner doesn't have information to negotiate with. If there is one reason to have decker an a sanitize spell, this is it. No camera footage, no forensic evidence.

Heh.

You guys realize what this is, right? Iterated Prisoner's Dilemma.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner%27s_dilemma

It's exactly the same thing, just with a zillion more variables. If Corp A and Corp B routinely send runners against each other (and everybody else), then when faced with a suspected run by the other, each has the choice of whether to ignore/retaliate lightly, or start throwing corporate nukes.

In the Iterated version, the best strategy (assuming reasonable opponents) is tit-for-tat; so, Corp A would respond to a run by Corp B most of the time by making an extra run of their own, possibly one that they had discounted due to insufficient ROI. Corp A still gets *some* profit, recoups a little of their loss, and reminds Corp B not to get too grabby. However, it won't hurt anything to play a little hardball from time to time, to raise the price and stakes for running against Corp A.

If Corp A does nothing, they're a sucker and will get drained until they bleed red ink. If Corp A goes nuclear at the first offense, they'll never make AAA. Larger corps will "clean them out of the pool" for being too disruptive.

That said, even in Iterated Prisoner's Dilemma, when you have enough players, niches emerge. Look at North Korea, which manages to run essentially a diplomatic protection racket, without ever being seriously slapped down. So, there's space for S-K to be a little more aggressive, but if Lofwyr went nuts *every* time, eventually he'd have the rest of the corps ganging up on him in a shooting war.

End result? Yeah, most corps may let the runners go after the run is over. But you never know when you made a personal enemy of some guy with corp resources at his disposal or when the board or CEO decides that An Example Must Be Made.

Do ya feel lucky, chummer? Well, do ya?

Righteo!

First things first... Mr Johnson should always offer a blanket sum, to let the negotiator on the PC team or team leader divy up as he sees fit. "Here's X. Hire as many as you think you'll need." Teach them to bring enough to do the job but to turn a profit as well. Does the boss take a bigger cut? Does he set some aside for team expenses? Is there a penalty setup in place ala James Brown for PCs who botch the run? Not Mr Johnson's problem. Note that the Fixer is often involved here ... his job is to get Mr Johnson and the Negotiator to a table. He collects his finder's fee (From Mr Johnson ... be nice to the PCs, here.) but, he also has a rep on the line. If the runners he reccomends keep screwing up, then the Johnsons are going to find themselves a new fix. Building up a tight relationship with a good fixer is *vital* for a Shadowrunning team.

Next, decide what kind of game you're running ... Washaani 320, for example, is CyberNoir or Firefly in Philly ... the runners stay poor-ish and hungry, scrabbling to get by in a world that grinds them down. Book 400, meanwhile, is more Ocean's Eleven ... some of the best guys in the city doing more amazing things by breakfast than you will in your lifetime, so get paid accordingly.

Rule of thumb is to take the number of PCs you have, figure what lifestyle you want them to have, then give them that plus ten percent or so for the group. (IE, Wakshaani 320 sets the team at Low lifestyle. With 5 runners, 10-12K is the ideal payment for a once/month run. If you do a weekly, smaller run instead, then only offer 25% of the month... 33% if you want to trip them out of cash now and then.) This should be balanced by the occasional windfall ... Something worth 3-6 months of lifestyle all at once but that, in turn, will make the heat stay on for a while, so they have to lay low for 1-3 months of no work. By the time the heat'sl low, they should be back to needing the cash. Some will live the better lifestyle during this, some will buy toys, others will use the time off to train or build contacts ... you have to give them options.

Book 400, meanwhile, assumes Middle lifestyle, touching on High once in a while. Assuming a group of 6, here, this means that 30K-40K would be the norm, again for a 1/month run. Again, a windfall of 3-12 months pay at once should happen every so often, giving everyone tim eto get new toys and rest up.

"Seems kinda low."

You'd think, but, in truth, crime doesn't pay that well. Take, for example, an average street gang of about 120 members.

At the edges are the wannabes. Non-gangers, they actually pay to hang out with gangers, slipping bribes now and again, "Hey, man, a spot opens up, you let me know, right?" ... these would-be bangers see the big players with fancy cars and fine women and want in, but, they have to pay *before* they can play, usually about $20 a month.

Past that are the street soldiers, the guys who sell drugs and fight if needed. Glamorous lifestyle? Nope. They make about $500 a month. About 90% of all drug dealers live with their parents or much off friends because they can't afford to live on their own. High risk, low pay, but they do it because, if they're good, if the get by, they can move up the organization, to where money really falls. It's like being a guy in the minor leagues of baseball, plugging away for no pay, in hopes of a professional scout finding you.

Next level are the Lieutenants. There's usually 3-4 in a group of this size. These are the professional gangers, the ones who don't flip burgers on the side because they get a good share of the profits. These guys get about $2000 a month, which isn't awsome, but beats working. They also get freebies, like drugs, loose women, and teh ability to boss around the little guys. Thy also have something to lose, so watch for hot upstarts who might be useful or, more likely, cause trouble.

At the top is the gang boss. Now, THIS guy, he makes out. $10,000 a month in his pocket, he gets the fancy car, he trolls the neigborhood to impress the wannabes, and he's teh reason that people get into crime ... they want to be that guy. Thing is, less than 1% ever get that far. (The Boss, meanwhile, kicks oart of his money to The Syndicate, the guys above where the drugs originate from, be it organized crime, a meta-gang, or what have you.)

After paying the bills (New drugs, ammo, guns, the SYndicate's cut), the profit for a month is usually split up thusly:

50% The Boss.
40% The Lieutenants
10% The Mooks

The Lieutenant fee is either for 4, or, more common, 3, with the other slice going to cover a group fund, where family members of dead gangers are paid for their loss, parties are thrown, etc. "Mad Money" as it was.

Crime only pays for teh big dogs, everyone else is left sniffing for scraps.

How many runs a month should a group have on average?

Depends on the team. (Again, all of this is IMHO and the like..) The big deciding factor is expected prep time.

If your group hangs out in a bar, picking up wayward housewives who want their husbands found, bodyguard duty for investigative reporters scoping out a chemical dump, or being hired by one Triad to hijack a truck of goods from another Triad (Which winds up being Yellow Slave Trade... will the Runners go through with it?, then a weekly run is fine. Low risk, low start-up costs, low pay, but able to churn through them at high rates of speed. This is teh "Each run pasy 25% of the monthly lifestyle" level, great fo the Low approach, not quite so good for the Middle, but it can work.

In contrast, if it's a multi-stage endevour, setting up false IDs, gathering disposable cars, etc etc etc, then one a month is more the norm.

And if your team is high-rolling, or Luxury-having, world-class Lofwyr-beaters, well, maybe it's all about The Big One and then you're out.

Kind of a loosey-goosey rule, but.

from a metagame standpoint, I usually do a period of 'downtime' after each run - if a player introduces a run hook (either as a result of character development or simply saying: "I call my fixer looking for runs") during downtime play then the next run will start at that point in the timeline (next day, next week, etc)

If no one instigates a run and I didn't have something from an ongoing plot about to trigger, then I kick the game time forward about a month and drop a generic run offer into their lap.

this means that there's a run starting or ongoing just about every night we meet at first, rapidly moving to a 50/50 setup (assuming most runs take one session) I prefer to do 'all downtime' when I can, (as in: only doing runs when players look for them) but it requires experienced players with investment in their characters, which isn't always possible.

I find it important to keep run offers generic until the runners bite, so that I can recycle the plot of an unused run by changing small details/security/payoff for later use without breaking the immersion of actually being able to turn runs down. (this saves me prep time and lets me keep a 'stable' of 4-8 runs available in the event that players want to shop around a bit for their next run)