If you have a mage with a possession tradition and he wishes to use the spirits of his tradition, I have some questions about it.
1. Can the spirit possess the summoning mage who is not yet initiated?
2. Can the mage use the spirits powers without being possessed?
3. Does the summoning mage need to some some initiated metamagic for the spirit to possess him?
4. If the summoned spirit is force 3 and all its stats are 3, and the summoning mages stats are 3, what is the stats of the combined mage/spirit.
5. Does a possessed mage have immunity to normal weapons?
6. What initiative/IP would the possessed mage go at, the mages or the spirits?
7. If the mage had any spells he cast on himself, would they still be effect while possessed? Assuming he sustains the spell while possessed or can he sustain spells while possessed?
8. Can the mage use Foci while possessed?
TIA
WMS
Full Version: Possession and the Mage
1. Yes, but unless the summoner initiates and learns Channeling (1), the spirit will exert control over the summoner (2). I tend to allow the summoner to relent to this test (3) if they want to. It's generally better, though, for the spirit to possess some other vessel so the summoner can still have access to their own skills/spells instead of the spirit's powers.
2. Without channeling, technically, the summoner can never use spirit powers. The summoner can order a spirit to use their powers, but that's being nit-picky. I think what you mean is can the summoner order a spirit to use a power without being possessed and the answer to this one is also yes. But, since possession-spirits lack any way of interacting with the Physical Plane except via possession (4), only Mana based powers on the Astral Plane are available.
3. This one is the same as #1 unless I missunderstand you.
4. Possession adds the spirit's force to all physical attributes and you use the spirit's force for all mental/special attributes of the combined entity. (5) Thus, the combined entity's body, strength, agility, and reaction would be 6 while it's charisma, intuition, logic, willpower, edge, and magic would be 3.
5. Yes. (6)
6. Initiative is calculated normally, Reaction + Intuition, using the combined entity's attributes. Thus, you get Mage's Reaction + Force + Force technically and you use the spirit's normal physical initiative passes, which is 2. (7)
7. This one I'm not sure on. I would argue that spells cannot be sustained once the spirit takes over in a possession of a non-channeling mage. A channeling mage, on the other hand, remains in control of him or herself but gains access to the spirit's powers. Thus, I'd let sustained spells continue to be sustained. If there's a canon rule for the situation, I leave it to others to try and search it out.
8. See #7.
References (all in Street Magic)
1) p. 54
2) p. 102 under Living Vessels in the sidebar.
3) p. 101 under Possession
4) p. 34 under Possession Based Traditions
5) p. 102 under Living Vessels in the sidebar.
6) p. 102 at the top of the sidebar.
7) p. 102 under Living Vessels in the sidebar.
2. Without channeling, technically, the summoner can never use spirit powers. The summoner can order a spirit to use their powers, but that's being nit-picky. I think what you mean is can the summoner order a spirit to use a power without being possessed and the answer to this one is also yes. But, since possession-spirits lack any way of interacting with the Physical Plane except via possession (4), only Mana based powers on the Astral Plane are available.
3. This one is the same as #1 unless I missunderstand you.
4. Possession adds the spirit's force to all physical attributes and you use the spirit's force for all mental/special attributes of the combined entity. (5) Thus, the combined entity's body, strength, agility, and reaction would be 6 while it's charisma, intuition, logic, willpower, edge, and magic would be 3.
5. Yes. (6)
6. Initiative is calculated normally, Reaction + Intuition, using the combined entity's attributes. Thus, you get Mage's Reaction + Force + Force technically and you use the spirit's normal physical initiative passes, which is 2. (7)
7. This one I'm not sure on. I would argue that spells cannot be sustained once the spirit takes over in a possession of a non-channeling mage. A channeling mage, on the other hand, remains in control of him or herself but gains access to the spirit's powers. Thus, I'd let sustained spells continue to be sustained. If there's a canon rule for the situation, I leave it to others to try and search it out.
8. See #7.
References (all in Street Magic)
1) p. 54
2) p. 102 under Living Vessels in the sidebar.
3) p. 101 under Possession
4) p. 34 under Possession Based Traditions
5) p. 102 under Living Vessels in the sidebar.
6) p. 102 at the top of the sidebar.
7) p. 102 under Living Vessels in the sidebar.
7. In the possession section it says the living vessel remains in the same state it was in when it was possessed. So a conscious mage is still conscious and just not in control of his body. I would suspect that the mage could probably still sustain a spell as he is still awake and sustaining spells is just a focus thing.
8. I don't think that the new entity could use the foci. In the possession section it talks about the 2 creatures forming into one dual natured creature. This would make me think that the foci bonded to just the mage would not work with the new being.
8. I don't think that the new entity could use the foci. In the possession section it talks about the 2 creatures forming into one dual natured creature. This would make me think that the foci bonded to just the mage would not work with the new being.
I could go with odinson's rulings as well.
Odinson,
Ok if a spell that was cast only on the mage, you said could be in effect as long as it was sustained?If that spell was Armor let say.
Why would a Foci which is only for the mage, not be usable?
Thanks Dashifen for going to the extra effect to show the references your statements come from.
Ok if a spell that was cast only on the mage, you said could be in effect as long as it was sustained?If that spell was Armor let say.
Why would a Foci which is only for the mage, not be usable?
Thanks Dashifen for going to the extra effect to show the references your statements come from.
| QUOTE (WearzManySkins @ Jun 11 2007, 02:54 PM) |
| Odinson, Ok if a spell that was cast only on the mage, you said could be in effect as long as it was sustained?If that spell was Armor let say. Why would a Foci which is only for the mage, not be usable? Thanks Dashifen for going to the extra effect to show the references your statements come from. |
Armour doesn't affect the mage. It creates a magical force around the mage. If you had a spell like improve physical attribute or combat sense then that spell wouldn't transfer over to the new creature.
EDIT: Actually, thinking about it, Armour could go either way. It says it creates the effect around the subject but when the two merge the subject is gone. If you were to cast armour on the new creature when the possession ends would both spirit and mage have it or would the spell end as the target is no longer valid.
The foci that is only for the mage would not be usable for the same reason the other mage in your party cannot pick up and use your foci, he's not bonded to it. The creature that forms from the is a single dual natured being. It is now no longer the mage or the spirit but one being. From SM pare 101 "... the vessel and the critter are considered a single dual-natured entity... ". The mage paid essence for cybereyes but the new creature can't use them. The mage payed karma to bond a focus but the new entity can't use them.
I think I'd asnwer #7 & #8 differently depending upon whether the Spirit possessing the magician was conjusred by that same magician. For self-conjured Spirits, I'd allow them to be used since the attunement/bonding is still 'in harmony' but I wouldn't allow it for Spirits summoned by others.
Basically by RAW, a Possession Tradition mage with out channeling, can not use spirits unless he/she wishes to become an NPC while possessed. Correct?
| QUOTE (HappyDaze) |
| I think I'd asnwer #7 & #8 differently depending upon whether the Spirit possessing the magician was conjusred by that same magician. For self-conjured Spirits, I'd allow them to be used since the attunement/bonding is still 'in harmony' but I wouldn't allow it for Spirits summoned by others. |
Yes my example is using a self conjured spirit. Sorry I did not make that clear.
| QUOTE (WearzManySkins @ Jun 11 2007, 03:44 PM) |
| Basically by RAW, a Possession Tradition mage with out channeling, can not use spirits unless he/she wishes to become an NPC while possessed. Correct? |
Just carry a bag of rats with you. It's not a self-possession tradition. Have your spirits possess those. Or your enemies. Or a bum.
Possession tradition mages can definitely use spirits.
edit: I think maybe I got confused and missed the point of the example.
My example was a Possession Tradition Mage like a Hougan, summing a force 3 spirit and having the spirit possess himself.
What you are saying is the possession is a offensive act performed upon ones non team members.
I know of some Trads that/would be Self Possessing.
What you are saying is the possession is a offensive act performed upon ones non team members.
I know of some Trads that/would be Self Possessing.
| QUOTE (WearzManySkins @ Jun 11 2007, 03:44 PM) |
| Basically by RAW, a Possession Tradition mage with out channeling, can not use spirits unless he/she wishes to become an NPC while possessed. Correct? |
More or less. I allow my possessed mages to act on their own as long as they've (a) been treating their spirits nicely and (b) the goals of their actions are in line with their tradition. Thus for a mage in my game with a custom possession based Zoroastrian tradition, if the character is doing her best to act in accordance with the blurb on Zoroastrianism (that is, fighting the influence of Ahriman in the world) then the possessed entity will do the things that the summoner probably wanted it to do because it's all a part of the tradition.
But, if that same character summoned and was possessed by a spirit but intended to, say, burn an orphanage, then the spirit would probably balk at this and a number of in-game consequences would take place.
Now, the way not to become an NPC is to have your spirit possess a different living vessel or an inanimate vessel (see p. 101 - 102 of Street Magic) for more information on this. Essentially, then your spirit is in a different vessel and the mage can still do all of their magey things.
| QUOTE (WearzManySkins) |
| Basically by RAW, a Possession Tradition mage with out channeling, can not use spirits unless he/she wishes to become an NPC while possessed. Correct? |
Wrong.
Basically by RAW, a Possession Tradition mage with out channeling, can not use possesion on himself unless he/she wishes to become an NPC while possessed. Correct?
He can tell his spirits to attempt to psoses others for a simple opposed test: Force*2 versus Intution + Willpower (for living) or Object Resitance for Objects). The spirit gets +6 dice if the object counts as a prepared vessel.
So Until Channelling a Possesion based mage is usually better off with having his spirits posses other things. Enemies, fallen corpse, machines, etc.
Now summoning the right type of spirit and having it posses oneself even without channelling can be a good 'escape' tactic.
Depending on your GM you may have no control (or he may allow you to control if you play it as the 'spriit would' your character, but telling a spirit to posses you and go to some place safe, can get you out of situations that you might not be able to get out of. (even if you do lose some control).
Just remember you are giving him the keys to your body until next sunrise/sunset.
7. I would say that the mage has to make a roll to see if he drops the spells, at the very least. I can imagine that the process of becoming possessed would be fairly distracting...
This whole "you become an NPC" thing is way out of line. Even without Channeling, you are still in control when your body is possessed. You don't directly control your body, true, but you still have 100% loyalty from the Spirit and you can direct it as you would a drone from the 'captain's chair' inside your head. At any time, you can also direct it to leave your body.
Without getting into a discussion as to whether Spirits are Sentient Beings from another Meta-Plane or magical creations ruled by the subconscious mind of the summoner.
What happens if the mage desires to do something that the spirit is diametrically opposed to?
What happens if the mage desires to do something that the spirit is diametrically opposed to?
The Magician summoned and/or bound it and has services owed to him. The Spirit cannot refuse an order. Other Spirits may resent such treatment, but the Spirit in question has no recourse but to follow the Magician's instructions.
@Demon_Bob
I take the opposite stance to HappyDaze. I'd give the Spirit some form of willpower roll -- maybe Force + Willpower -- to resist the command to which they are diametrically opposed. Then, if the spirit wins it won't perform the action. 'Course, this also won't use up the service, but that spirit's going to be pissed at the summoner, perhaps using Edge to resist summoning again in the future and definitely telling all of his spirit buddies that the summoner is a bastard. I wouldn't be too hard on a player for a first offense, but if they're consistently acting in opposition to their spirits, there's the possibility that the next time they try to summon an Earth spirit, they actually get a Toxic .........
I take the opposite stance to HappyDaze. I'd give the Spirit some form of willpower roll -- maybe Force + Willpower -- to resist the command to which they are diametrically opposed. Then, if the spirit wins it won't perform the action. 'Course, this also won't use up the service, but that spirit's going to be pissed at the summoner, perhaps using Edge to resist summoning again in the future and definitely telling all of his spirit buddies that the summoner is a bastard. I wouldn't be too hard on a player for a first offense, but if they're consistently acting in opposition to their spirits, there's the possibility that the next time they try to summon an Earth spirit, they actually get a Toxic .........
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