Ok so I have a question. In the summary of the whats in the Augmentation expantion it states that there will be rules for full cuborg bodies. Now was this a mix up and should have said Cybermancy or do we have a a coming rule set that will finally make it possible to go full borg and fill in the missing part of SR when it comes to the cyberpunk genre?
just wandering,
Full Version: Augmentation
Where Man and Machine had Cybermancy, Augmentation takes things a step further and features three separate cutting-edge technologies: biodrones, cyberzombies, and (full body) cyborgs. They represent three slightly different approaches to enhancement tech, all with some weird twists of their own.
The one thing I will say about cyborgs is not to simply expect the obvious. It isn't simply about replacing every limb and organ in your body with a cyberversion.... well, it is and it isn't. You'll see.
The one thing I will say about cyborgs is not to simply expect the obvious. It isn't simply about replacing every limb and organ in your body with a cyberversion.... well, it is and it isn't. You'll see.
Are biodrones the kind of thing the chinese (I think thats who it is) are experimenting with where you can convert a pigeon to remote control?
That and then some.
What about the surgery rules?
Personally, I felt that the SR3-surgery rules were very complicated and that they imposed several disadvantages for mundane characters, compared to the advanced magic rules com MitS, mainly costs and the setup of an implant-operation.
What will be the focus of the new rules? More options and possibilities for mundane characters or more costs and pocket-calculator-time?
SYL
Personally, I felt that the SR3-surgery rules were very complicated and that they imposed several disadvantages for mundane characters, compared to the advanced magic rules com MitS, mainly costs and the setup of an implant-operation.
What will be the focus of the new rules? More options and possibilities for mundane characters or more costs and pocket-calculator-time?
SYL
One of our main goals with SR4 is streamlining mechanics. We will continue to do so in future books, in much the same way we tried to simplify and standardize mechanics when converting some of the old standards in MitS to Street Magic.
Personally, I think this iteration of the surgery and implantation rules is the simplest and easiest to use to date - but then again I might be biased.
Personally, I think this iteration of the surgery and implantation rules is the simplest and easiest to use to date - but then again I might be biased.
| QUOTE (Synner) |
| One of our main goals with SR4 is streamlining mechanics. We will continue to do so in future books, in much the same way we tried to simplify and standardize mechanics when converting some of the old standards in MitS to Street Magic. Personally, I think this iteration of the surgery and implantation rules is the simplest and easiest to use to date - but then again I might be biased. |
Every set of writers probably thought the same thing. There has been to be quite a number of "clarifications" simply this time around because of rules gaps though.
The surgery rules in M&M were so arcane I ignored them. Suddenly it went from, "I want a smartlink." "Okay, pay your money, deduct the essence, one week downtime," to, "I want a smartlink." "Okay, multiply your Dad's age when you were born by the square root of pi, and check to see if you go back to character creation." As has been mentioned, it became a burden on augmented characters.
Full conversion borgs. Well...it had to happen sometime.
And vehicle modification rules are much welcomed.
Also...AAAAAARG! WHERE IS AUGMENTATION? WHERE IS ARSENAL? NOW! NOW! NOW!
(Pant, pant, pant...)
Full conversion borgs. Well...it had to happen sometime.
And vehicle modification rules are much welcomed. Also...AAAAAARG! WHERE IS AUGMENTATION? WHERE IS ARSENAL? NOW! NOW! NOW!
(Pant, pant, pant...)
Synner,
A while back I heard a nasty rumour that the vehicule creation rules à la Rigger 3 were being removed. This would be a massively bad decision. Can you talk about what kind of vehicule customization rules you (not you personally, a general 'you') decided to go with?
A while back I heard a nasty rumour that the vehicule creation rules à la Rigger 3 were being removed. This would be a massively bad decision. Can you talk about what kind of vehicule customization rules you (not you personally, a general 'you') decided to go with?
| QUOTE (Backgammon @ Jun 14 2007, 02:07 PM) |
| A while back I heard a nasty rumour that the vehicule creation rules à la Rigger 3 were being removed. This would be a massively bad decision. Can you talk about what kind of vehicule customization rules you (not you personally, a general 'you') decided to go with? |
A few issues with Arsenal are still being hammered out - besides Emergence, it was the book that suffered the most with the changeover in terms of development. However, I can tell you that the developers' intent was to have full customization rules for vehicles (where "customization" equals "modify your vehicle to your heart's content" rules, as opposed to "design your own vehicle from the ground up" rules - Rigger 3 had both but the vast majority of players never used the latter).
| QUOTE (Synner) |
| However, I can tell you that the intent is indeed to have full customization rules for vehicles (and weapons), but these will be "modify your vehicle to your heart's content" rules, rather than "design your own vehicle from the ground up" rules. |
Good idea. Waste of space in R2 & R3 really, they tended to stifle innovation.
All these details about Augmentation sound great, looking forward to it.
| QUOTE (Synner) |
| where "customization" equals "modify your vehicle to your heart's content" rules, as opposed to "design your own vehicle from the ground up" rules - Rigger 3 had both but the vast majority of players never used the latter |
So no more "choose chassis, choose powerplant, add options" rules?
I understand that most players may never use those rules, but just about all GMs do at one point or another, and most Riggers too I would think. My group couldn't believe those rules were going out when I told them.
Not everyone may use them, but those that do use them really, really want them. It would be a big big mistake to at least not provide guidelines to vehicle creation or a shorter, simplified version.
I can live with no design rules, as long as the customization rules are great.
Thanks for all the info Synner, we really appreciate it. I've got another question for you: Cyberlimbs. We all know there's some weirdness, and I know they get some love in Augmentation. Does the cyberlimb love in Augmentation simply build off the existing stuff in the core book, or does it take more of an approach of, "Okay, the core book has the basic rules for cyberlimbs, which are fine if you're just touching on them. If you're really getting into them, use these rules instead." To rephrase, do you build off the weirdness in the core book and fix it, or do you present an alternate set of cyberlimb rules?
I hope I'm being clear. Thanks.
Thanks for all the info Synner, we really appreciate it. I've got another question for you: Cyberlimbs. We all know there's some weirdness, and I know they get some love in Augmentation. Does the cyberlimb love in Augmentation simply build off the existing stuff in the core book, or does it take more of an approach of, "Okay, the core book has the basic rules for cyberlimbs, which are fine if you're just touching on them. If you're really getting into them, use these rules instead." To rephrase, do you build off the weirdness in the core book and fix it, or do you present an alternate set of cyberlimb rules?
I hope I'm being clear. Thanks.
| QUOTE (Synner) |
| Personally, I think this iteration of the surgery and implantation rules is the simplest and easiest to use to date - but then again I might be biased. |
Thank you for your answer.
However, more or less the same thing was said by Mike Mulvihill in M&M ... i really hope that the new rules are much more intuitive and playable.
The comparison with Magic in the Shadows is interesting. MitS offered a lot of new play-options/rules for the player and the character: new metamagic, totems, metaquests, spelldesign, foci, enchanting, spirits ... so many great new toys, so few karma so spend
M&M on the other side introduced a very complicated surgery rule system with extreme high monetary costs, in the end limiting mundane characters (by financial problems) and frustrating players and game masters. Nowhere had the mundane character the same rule possibilities like the awakened counterpart.
I really hope that this will change.
SYL
Just happen to look over and see update appear on my feed. Big WOOT eagerly awaiting some releases! Nice to see Synners posts as well, feel like a kid whos had to wait two years for christmas to come, and just saw Santa on the roof !
"Stands eagerly in front of tree with commlink and ammo in hand."
"Stands eagerly in front of tree with commlink and ammo in hand."
| QUOTE (Backgammon @ Jun 14 2007, 03:09 PM) | ||
So no more "choose chassis, choose powerplant, add options" rules? |
There might be something like that for drones (don't hold me to it though) but not for production line vehicles.
| QUOTE |
| Not everyone may use them, but those that do use them really, really want them. It would be a big big mistake to at least not provide guidelines to vehicle creation or a shorter, simplified version. |
If we do end up doing something of the sort it won't be in Arsenal. What we will be offering is a bunch of vehicles and drones that can be used as templates with minor tweaks.
| QUOTE |
| Cyberlimbs. We all know there's some weirdness, and I know they get some love in Augmentation. Does the cyberlimb love in Augmentation simply build off the existing stuff in the core book, or does it take more of an approach of, "Okay, the core book has the basic rules for cyberlimbs, which are fine if you're just touching on them. If you're really getting into them, use these rules instead." |
The rules for cyberlimbs in the core book pretty much describe cyberlimbs picked up off the shelf at your local bodyshop and/or prosthetic replacements you might get under your medcare contract. We won't be modifying those rules.
However, we will be adding a number of customization options for those looking for higher-end (and more expensive) replacement cyberlimbs.
I would love to see some actual content similar to the page previews for SM and the core book. Realistically thou we ain't going to get that till they sort out the PDF *sigh*
Having read and re-read the M&M surgery rules until I could understand them, I am proud to say that the ones in Augmentation are nothing like them.
We're talking making extended tests to determine how long procedures take (with enough downtime you can just hand wave it), rather than creating a plan with potential options that will become available if your open test and success test on the same die roll happen to hit appropriate cumulative thresholds.
Essence costs are defined strictly by grade, there is no +/- 5% cost factored into the arcane intricacies of a series of die rolls.
-Frank
We're talking making extended tests to determine how long procedures take (with enough downtime you can just hand wave it), rather than creating a plan with potential options that will become available if your open test and success test on the same die roll happen to hit appropriate cumulative thresholds.
Essence costs are defined strictly by grade, there is no +/- 5% cost factored into the arcane intricacies of a series of die rolls.
-Frank
| QUOTE (Synner) | ||
The rules for cyberlimbs in the core book pretty much describe cyberlimbs picked up off the shelf at your local bodyshop and/or prosthetic replacements you might get under your medcare contract. We won't be modifying those rules. However, we will be adding a number of customization options for those looking for higher-end (and more expensive) replacement cyberlimbs. |
Okay, cool. As long as you can assure me that whatever it is, it's great.
Thanks for the info.
| QUOTE (FrankTrollman) |
| Having read and re-read the M&M surgery rules until I could understand them, I am proud to say that the ones in Augmentation are nothing like them. We're talking making extended tests to determine how long procedures take (with enough downtime you can just hand wave it), rather than creating a plan with potential options that will become available if your open test and success test on the same die roll happen to hit appropriate cumulative thresholds. Essence costs are defined strictly by grade, there is no +/- 5% cost factored into the arcane intricacies of a series of die rolls. -Frank |
...and there was much rejoicing. yaaaaay.
when frank gives a set of rules the virtual thumbs up, things must be good.
| QUOTE (Synner @ Jun 14 2007, 04:10 PM) |
| However, we will be adding a number of customization options for those looking for higher-end (and more expensive) replacement cyberlimbs. |
YES!
That sounds like a very good approach. To be honest, the more I think about it, the more I think I might want Augmentation even more than I do Arsenal, so I can probably live with the latter being bumped.
| QUOTE (FrankTrollman) |
We're talking making extended tests to determine how long procedures take (with enough downtime you can just hand wave it), rather than creating a plan with potential options that will become available if your open test and success test on the same die roll happen to hit appropriate cumulative thresholds. Essence costs are defined strictly by grade, there is no +/- 5% cost factored into the arcane intricacies of a series of die rolls. -Frank |
YES! (again).
And I have to say regarding this:
| QUOTE (toturi) |
Every set of writers probably thought the same thing. |
Whilst that is true, toturi... These people have precedent in achieving that.
This is really great news!
| QUOTE (Synner) |
| The rules for cyberlimbs in the core book pretty much describe cyberlimbs picked up off the shelf at your local bodyshop and/or prosthetic replacements you might get under your medcare contract. We won't be modifying those rules. However, we will be adding a number of customization options for those looking for higher-end (and more expensive) replacement cyberlimbs. |
OneTrikPony, when you read this, remember our deal.
| QUOTE (Synner) |
| The rules for cyberlimbs in the core book pretty much describe cyberlimbs picked up off the shelf at your local bodyshop and/or prosthetic replacements you might get under your medcare contract. We won't be modifying those rules. However, we will be adding a number of customization options for those looking for higher-end (and more expensive) replacement cyberlimbs. |
sounds very very promising, looking forward to this
if done right this may well be the best version of SR yet, imo.
i just wonder how they will interact with the full borg rules, but i guess noone can say anything about that until the book is out.
ok, another SR book added to my must buy list.
/me clears his throat.
YES! WOO! At last!
Heh, with the full borg kit, a lot of people are going to be building Robocops.
YES! WOO! At last!
Heh, with the full borg kit, a lot of people are going to be building Robocops.
hell, it can be done today. but the cost vs function will be horrible...
i also did a robocop in SR3, not the most effective of designs...
i also did a robocop in SR3, not the most effective of designs...
Ok, people will be building Robocops that aren't gimped.
| QUOTE (Synner) |
| I can tell you that the developers' intent was to have full customization rules for vehicles (where "customization" equals "modify your vehicle to your heart's content" rules, as opposed to "design your own vehicle from the ground up" rules - Rigger 3 had both but the vast majority of players never used the latter). |
Cool. I remember suggesting that some years ago at sparsely attended Gencon meeting. It's really hard to have a vehicle design system that works decently. Modifications seem like a much more useful way to spend developer/playtester time.
A modification system is good only if you have a bunch more stock vehicles.
| QUOTE (odinson) |
| A modification system is good only if you have a bunch more stock vehicles. |
True. And it would be useful if the stock vehicles worked, avoiding things like commercial jets that are supposed to fly from Chicago to Frankfurt but can't make it across the Atlantic without running out of fuel. And I'm still impressed that they have never yet published stats for a DocWagon vehicle that allows it to actually carry the patient/medic/security load that the DocWagon background fluff says it can.
| QUOTE (yoippari) |
| Are biodrones the kind of thing the chinese (I think thats who it is) are experimenting with where you can convert a pigeon to remote control? |
| QUOTE (Synner) |
| That and then some. |
...man as if Devil Rats weren't already annoying. Now I have all the more reason the shoot them on sight.
| QUOTE (Kyoto Kid) |
| ...man as if Devil Rats weren't already annoying. Now I have all the more reason the shoot them on sight. |
Ever read Global Frequency? The chapter where Aleph is on her own?
actually re: biodrones I get shades of Agent Smith popping in my head. Rigged sec guards? Rigged hellhounds?
To point it out, I've used that trick before in 3rd edition.
All it takes is a snake eyes set, some skillwires, and a rigger. It doesn't explicitly state you CAN'T do this, so I ruled you could.
People got scared.
All it takes is a snake eyes set, some skillwires, and a rigger. It doesn't explicitly state you CAN'T do this, so I ruled you could.
People got scared.
| QUOTE (JongWK) | ||
Ever read Global Frequency? The chapter where Aleph is on her own? |
...nope. Kind of dropped out of the comics scene a while back when they started becoming almost as expensive as paperback novels.
| QUOTE (Kyoto Kid) | ||||
...nope. Kind of dropped out of the comics scene a while back when they started becoming almost as expensive as paperback novels. |
Ok, small spoiler here:
[ Spoiler ]
I've never really been interested in playing anything other than an awakened. I first started out with the stereotypical Elven mage lol.
2nd Edition, learned the value of having atleast strength2 and some athletics when you play a mage. Trying to jump off of a skyscraper into a heli is not good when you're a pans lol. Though I must mention the fact that I was a complete noob, to rpg's in general and SR. Also it was my HellBlast that set the building on fire, I don't know if it was my GM or what, but I rolled so well it was practically a nuke!
The drain almost took me out, I took phys till I almost Combusted. Then I try the jump, utterly botch, and if the other players and GM hadn't been kind since It was first hour of first game I'd have died horribly. GM had me falling to my rather ignomious death, then timewarp/flashback and the sammy catches me mid-arc lol. Team Karma.
That was actually the last really stupid thing I did during SR games though, I went completely paranoid lol. The other stupid actions were based on character information, role-playing, and bad rolls.
Back on topic, mostly, I like the idea of being able to custimize a vehicle from the ground up. After my first game I never made the mistake of not having some form of non-public transit transportation lol. Even if it's only purchasing a bicycle!
The lack of cyber-ware on my always awakened characters has much to do with the thought that the 1 or so missing magic(from previous editions) would be the 1 thing missing when I needed it most lol. *Fizzle Fizzle*
2nd Edition, learned the value of having atleast strength2 and some athletics when you play a mage. Trying to jump off of a skyscraper into a heli is not good when you're a pans lol. Though I must mention the fact that I was a complete noob, to rpg's in general and SR. Also it was my HellBlast that set the building on fire, I don't know if it was my GM or what, but I rolled so well it was practically a nuke!
The drain almost took me out, I took phys till I almost Combusted. Then I try the jump, utterly botch, and if the other players and GM hadn't been kind since It was first hour of first game I'd have died horribly. GM had me falling to my rather ignomious death, then timewarp/flashback and the sammy catches me mid-arc lol. Team Karma.
That was actually the last really stupid thing I did during SR games though, I went completely paranoid lol. The other stupid actions were based on character information, role-playing, and bad rolls.
Back on topic, mostly, I like the idea of being able to custimize a vehicle from the ground up. After my first game I never made the mistake of not having some form of non-public transit transportation lol. Even if it's only purchasing a bicycle!
The lack of cyber-ware on my always awakened characters has much to do with the thought that the 1 or so missing magic(from previous editions) would be the 1 thing missing when I needed it most lol. *Fizzle Fizzle*
| QUOTE (JongWK) | ||||||
Ok, small spoiler here: [ Spoiler ] |
...thanks for the spoiler.
[ Spoiler ]
about biodrones. go grab transhuman space.
yes its gurps, but its one refined setting!
yes its gurps, but its one refined setting!
Those biodrones could be scary.
There's the cost of a good Pilot, copied if you are the corp that owns the program, plus the cost of lots of good security drones.
There's also the cost of paying a well-trained security guard.
And then there's the cost of paying (abducting?) some bum with no training, who would be an utterly useless guard, except for the robotic Pilot controlling his movements.
The body of the man may be cheaper than the body of the robot, but the mind of the robot may be cheaper and more effective than the mind of the man.
There's the cost of a good Pilot, copied if you are the corp that owns the program, plus the cost of lots of good security drones.
There's also the cost of paying a well-trained security guard.
And then there's the cost of paying (abducting?) some bum with no training, who would be an utterly useless guard, except for the robotic Pilot controlling his movements.
The body of the man may be cheaper than the body of the robot, but the mind of the robot may be cheaper and more effective than the mind of the man.
For bio-drones, think more along the lines of Attack of the Clones...
Take your badass specops guy and clone him. Yes, you can do this, look at the organ cloning. The weakness is that the resulting clone doesn't have the training and experience of the original.
That's where simsense recordings come in. With a 'Pilot' based off of simsense recorded from the original subject - and thus tailored for the body - you now have a combat ready bio-drone. The skills recorded will be akin to activesofts.
Sure, there may be some added fluff to make this all work out perfectly, but I'll leave that for others.
Take your badass specops guy and clone him. Yes, you can do this, look at the organ cloning. The weakness is that the resulting clone doesn't have the training and experience of the original.
That's where simsense recordings come in. With a 'Pilot' based off of simsense recorded from the original subject - and thus tailored for the body - you now have a combat ready bio-drone. The skills recorded will be akin to activesofts.
Sure, there may be some added fluff to make this all work out perfectly, but I'll leave that for others.
I'm curious to see what they did with Genetech.
That is one area of high-tech biomedical science that SR has yet to tap effectively (The brief treatment in SOTA:63 was rather limited in scope).
I'm certain that by 2070 the science will advance to the point that its vast potential will begin to be realized in ways that impact the average member of society. The things you could do in the shadows are frightening...
That is one area of high-tech biomedical science that SR has yet to tap effectively (The brief treatment in SOTA:63 was rather limited in scope).
I'm certain that by 2070 the science will advance to the point that its vast potential will begin to be realized in ways that impact the average member of society. The things you could do in the shadows are frightening...
My fingers are crossed for biodrones being upgradable via RNA skill/memory injections.
Of course, Hyperion and Fall of Hyperion have changed what I want rather radically.
Of course, Hyperion and Fall of Hyperion have changed what I want rather radically.
I hope the biodrone rules basically allow riggers to possess creatures. Especially metahumas. How awesome would that be.
snakeyes allowed a rigger to piggyback on another beings senses.
and adarael already talked about houseruleing that a rigger could control a skillwire system.
i wonder however if a drone or agent can be loaded into a biodrone. if so, one is moving into the realm of the transhuman space bioroid. basically a clone body with a computer in place of higher brain functions. in said computer one of 3 levels of AI could be uploaded, with the lowest being similar to a high rating agent imo. hell, it could even house a copy of a human mind, turned into something of a AI. virtual immortality
and adarael already talked about houseruleing that a rigger could control a skillwire system.
i wonder however if a drone or agent can be loaded into a biodrone. if so, one is moving into the realm of the transhuman space bioroid. basically a clone body with a computer in place of higher brain functions. in said computer one of 3 levels of AI could be uploaded, with the lowest being similar to a high rating agent imo. hell, it could even house a copy of a human mind, turned into something of a AI. virtual immortality
Biodrones? Does that mean Cappin Chaos is comin back to us?
Seriously the essence cost of Snake eyes was so not worth it for what it gave you. And so was alot of my issues that I had with how syber was handled in 3rd.
What they'd really need is biodrone devil rats with implanted razor spurs in odd places.
What are the razorspurs for?
To impale any devil rat that tries to mate with it or vice a versa.
Release a couple hundred and see how the devil rat population does then. Can't poison them so design devil rats to slay devil rats.
What are the razorspurs for?
To impale any devil rat that tries to mate with it or vice a versa.
Release a couple hundred and see how the devil rat population does then. Can't poison them so design devil rats to slay devil rats.
the only thing that made cyberlimbs dumb in shadowrun was when they added the basic str, dex and body of 3, and the fact that it cost essence to buy the points up.
In most cases, a Sam would have higher than three in these three stats, yet his arm was weaker, slower, and flimsy.
It cost essence to buy those up to what your natural stats where, and then you had less essence for other things.
I hoped this assanine system would be dropped in 4th, but like a case of herpes, it came back
Synner, is the system in Aug different for cyber limbs? The premium ones I sopke of, or do trolls still have to spend several essence to get a cyber limbs up to their racial minimums for body and str?
In most cases, a Sam would have higher than three in these three stats, yet his arm was weaker, slower, and flimsy.
It cost essence to buy those up to what your natural stats where, and then you had less essence for other things.
I hoped this assanine system would be dropped in 4th, but like a case of herpes, it came back
Synner, is the system in Aug different for cyber limbs? The premium ones I sopke of, or do trolls still have to spend several essence to get a cyber limbs up to their racial minimums for body and str?
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