And I can't even find any mortars in the Wordman list. 
Other than that...
...^topic^
Full Version: Does anyone even use mortars in their games?
I mean, they are somewhat useless. Their ammo's availability in SR is deadly high. And I can't even find any mortars in the Wordman list.
Other than that...
...^topic^
And I can't even find any mortars in the Wordman list. Other than that...
...^topic^
In the "typical" SR game? Probably not -- too many obstacles to properly deliver mortar rounds, although a 40mm grenade launcher will do well in a pinch.
If the PCs have connections to military grade weapons and routinely do some heavy firepower missions, then maybe. Ambushing a wilderness compound is about the only time this kind of weapon would see deployment.
Or a military-style campaign, I suppose.
-Siege
If the PCs have connections to military grade weapons and routinely do some heavy firepower missions, then maybe. Ambushing a wilderness compound is about the only time this kind of weapon would see deployment.
Or a military-style campaign, I suppose.
-Siege
Yes. Now mind you I would vote for half of the members of the group being psychotic. But there's nothing to close down a street like someone raining white phosphorous mortars down on it.
They're rarely used, but now and again they do have their uses. Nothing like a mortar-drone for causing a little chaos.
~J
~J
True. If you want to cause a sizeable distraction at one end of a corporate compound while doing your best to get in and avoid the security presence...
My Merc uses his mortal all the time. Of course, he and his crew generally operate in Africa and southeast asia, where blowing the unholy hell out of things won't get you shot by Lone Star, just the opposing army.
Good for mercs. Bad for shadowrunners.
Good for mercs. Bad for shadowrunners.
I used them just recently in the last game... someone decided it would be fun to litter the local urban brawl field with shells.
Good for Shadowrunners too. Creating all sorts of unholy mil-grade Hell can work wonders on your way out. Just bad on your way in.
~J
~J
One of my chars has aquired one together with another player's char but we never got the opportunity to use it.
We've used them in the past. Most memorable instance was using a homing round - tracking a beam from a laser designator embedded in the spotter's cybereye - to take out a corporate executive whilst travelling in his armoured limousine along the street.
I have a couple of facilities in my game that use mortar installations as part of their site security. There have also been a couple of instances where the players have used them, both in a jungle setting and in an urban setting. Mortars are useful in both settings because of their high arc of fire. It makes it much easier to hit targets on the far side of buildings, walls, or other obstacles to direct/LOS fire.
I've spoken to my father, a former Marine who served on a special weapons mortar crew, and several other mortarmen with experience in various real world conflicts about this. According to them, Beirut, Warsaw, and Phenom Phen are all excellent models for employment of mortars. Small mortars, 39mm to 87mm, mounted in the back of a delivery van that has a "moon roof" opening have been used extensively in Beirut over the years. They provide fast mobile fire support for any size team that needs to make a big impression on the scenary. A good mortar crew with an accurate forward observer can bring effective fire on to a target within 3rds, at a rate of upto 2 rds per second. During the Vietnam conflict, USMC rifle companies serving in country normally had 3 81mm crews in the weapons platoon, and 1 60mm crew in each rifle platoon. They would start of the daily patrol with 12rds each for the 81mm mortars and 24 rds each for the 60mm units. There is a gentleman here, that my wife introduced me to from her old workplace, who grew up in Beirut. He tells me that most of the mortar vans that his unit employed generally carried 10 to 20 rds, with 6 of them in ready racks.
Yes, this is a lot of fire power to have available for a team of runners, but they do provide that extra kick that could be brought to bear by the rigger that is covering the team's 6, should the drek really hit the jet wash.
I have also seen a training film for improvising a mortar using the tube from a roll of carpet, a roofing nail, some 20oz plastic pop bottles, shotgun shells, gasoline, and some short lengths of conduit. I wouldn't recommend this for regular usage. It did not appear from the film that this was a really reliable system. (Read Safe)
I've spoken to my father, a former Marine who served on a special weapons mortar crew, and several other mortarmen with experience in various real world conflicts about this. According to them, Beirut, Warsaw, and Phenom Phen are all excellent models for employment of mortars. Small mortars, 39mm to 87mm, mounted in the back of a delivery van that has a "moon roof" opening have been used extensively in Beirut over the years. They provide fast mobile fire support for any size team that needs to make a big impression on the scenary. A good mortar crew with an accurate forward observer can bring effective fire on to a target within 3rds, at a rate of upto 2 rds per second. During the Vietnam conflict, USMC rifle companies serving in country normally had 3 81mm crews in the weapons platoon, and 1 60mm crew in each rifle platoon. They would start of the daily patrol with 12rds each for the 81mm mortars and 24 rds each for the 60mm units. There is a gentleman here, that my wife introduced me to from her old workplace, who grew up in Beirut. He tells me that most of the mortar vans that his unit employed generally carried 10 to 20 rds, with 6 of them in ready racks.
Yes, this is a lot of fire power to have available for a team of runners, but they do provide that extra kick that could be brought to bear by the rigger that is covering the team's 6, should the drek really hit the jet wash.
I have also seen a training film for improvising a mortar using the tube from a roll of carpet, a roofing nail, some 20oz plastic pop bottles, shotgun shells, gasoline, and some short lengths of conduit. I wouldn't recommend this for regular usage. It did not appear from the film that this was a really reliable system. (Read Safe)
We've used them once or twice on runs, in rural areas like SS lands. We did a short campaign in CFS that was military but that was different. On runs though we usually don't need a bombardment. As already pointed out a grneade launched does just as well in a pinch and the use of mortars was usually for supression, confusino while beating a retreat, raining down smoke and the occassional WP to discourage pursuit.
| QUOTE (FlakJacket) |
| We've used them in the past. Most memorable instance was using a homing round - tracking a beam from a laser designator embedded in the spotter's cybereye - to take out a corporate executive whilst travelling in his armoured limousine along the street. |
Hmm...Never knew cybereye lasers could be used like that.
| QUOTE (CeaDawg) |
| A good mortar crew with an accurate forward observer can bring effective fire on to a target within 3rds, at a rate of upto 2 rds per second. |
[Emphasis mine.]
Eh? 2 rounds per second sounds more like an automatic mortar, a la Vasilek, for which I couldn't find the actual RoF. Even the AMOS, the twin-barreled automatic 120mm mortar can only fire 4 rounds in 8 seconds, though that's probably mostly because it's a heavy mortar.
The official maximum RoF of the M224 60mm mortar is 30rds/min, or 1rd/2 seconds, while the maximum RoF of the M252 81mm mortar is 33rds/min, pretty much the same. Granted, even these are sustained (over 1 or 2 minutes), but I still think 120rpm is stretching it for a good old-fashioned mortar. I think the people you've spoken with have been exaggerating a bit.
But the point you made is solid. Highly mobile heavy firepower is always welcome. Now if only there were automatic, magazine or clip fed 60mm mortars capable of both direct and indirect fire mounted on HMWVV platforms...
As for the actual topic, there have been mortars in my SR games, when a team was mercing around in South America, and even then it was only a few light ones. Such weapons are a bit of a turn-off because they can immediately kill you if only you have a bit of bad luck, and there is not much you can do to stop it from happening: If a mortar round drops next to you, you're a goner. But then the majority of firefights in my games happen indoors anyway, as I suppose is the case in most other peoples' games as well.
I'm actually quite surprised that the minimum range of the M224 and the M252 are only 70 meters and 83 meters, respectively. On the other hand, if you have to fire a mortar that close, you're probably pretty screwed, and it's quite inaccurate plus there's the huge arc so the target can be long gone before the round gets there.
Eh? 2 rounds per second sounds more like an automatic mortar, a la Vasilek, for which I couldn't find the actual RoF. Even the AMOS, the twin-barreled automatic 120mm mortar can only fire 4 rounds in 8 seconds, though that's probably mostly because it's a heavy mortar.
The official maximum RoF of the M224 60mm mortar is 30rds/min, or 1rd/2 seconds, while the maximum RoF of the M252 81mm mortar is 33rds/min, pretty much the same. Granted, even these are sustained (over 1 or 2 minutes), but I still think 120rpm is stretching it for a good old-fashioned mortar. I think the people you've spoken with have been exaggerating a bit.
But the point you made is solid. Highly mobile heavy firepower is always welcome. Now if only there were automatic, magazine or clip fed 60mm mortars capable of both direct and indirect fire mounted on HMWVV platforms...
As for the actual topic, there have been mortars in my SR games, when a team was mercing around in South America, and even then it was only a few light ones. Such weapons are a bit of a turn-off because they can immediately kill you if only you have a bit of bad luck, and there is not much you can do to stop it from happening: If a mortar round drops next to you, you're a goner. But then the majority of firefights in my games happen indoors anyway, as I suppose is the case in most other peoples' games as well.
I'm actually quite surprised that the minimum range of the M224 and the M252 are only 70 meters and 83 meters, respectively. On the other hand, if you have to fire a mortar that close, you're probably pretty screwed, and it's quite inaccurate plus there's the huge arc so the target can be long gone before the round gets there.
Hmm I wonder if you can use an assault cannon to loft a rifle grenade with similar stats to a Mortar shell...
Come to think of it, a big enough runner might be able to fire a 60mm tube like one of us firing a 40mm GL.
Come to think of it, a big enough runner might be able to fire a 60mm tube like one of us firing a 40mm GL.
| QUOTE (Ed_209a) |
| Come to think of it, a big enough runner might be able to fire a 60mm tube like one of us firing a 40mm GL. |
You mean like a full-body cyber-replaced troll using Patrick Goodman's weights? Weighing in at well over a (metric) ton, with a good gyro-mount and the "Rooting" Adept Power, why not.
Heh, OK, I have OBVIOUSLY underestimated the recoil of those bad boys.
Might work with under-charged rounds though. Sure you won't be slinging them 5km, but you probably won't need to.
Might work with under-charged rounds though. Sure you won't be slinging them 5km, but you probably won't need to.
Mortars in SR - no
But in:
Twilight/Merc:2000 the group used six 120mm mortars
2300AD the group used 60mm Manpacks
The Traveller group prefers tube artillery with nuclear warheads
Michael
But in:
Twilight/Merc:2000 the group used six 120mm mortars
2300AD the group used 60mm Manpacks
The Traveller group prefers tube artillery with nuclear warheads
Michael
Darnit, couldn't find confirmation on the propellant charge weight of a 60mm mortar cartridge. That means I can't use the Recoil Calculator found on Raygun's site to do the math.
Anyway, the slowest/smallest range charge propels the round out of the tube at 65m/s, which translates to a measely muzzle energy of 7,098J / 5,235ft-lbs with the 1.68kg cartridge. That's for ranges 70m - 400m. For 200m - 1300m, the muzzle velocity is 126m/s, for a decent muzzle energy of 26,671J / 19,672 ft-lbs. 350m - 2100m requires a muzzle velocity of 170m/s, and thus 48,552J / 35,810 ft-lbs of energy. 500m - 2800m, 208m/s, 72,684 J / 53,609 ft-lbs. 650m - 3500m, 241m/s, 97,576J / 72,968 ft-lbs.
A .50BMG generates about as much energy as the 350m - 2100m round. So it appears it was me who overestimated the recoil. At least energy-wise, it shouldn't be that bad. The 170m/s round generates 286kgm/s momentum though, while the .50BMG only generates about 45kgm/s -- dunno how that affects the recoil.
[Edit]Nice... Birdy's Twilight2k group had the heavy mortar support of a Russian Infantry Regiment.[/Edit]
Anyway, the slowest/smallest range charge propels the round out of the tube at 65m/s, which translates to a measely muzzle energy of 7,098J / 5,235ft-lbs with the 1.68kg cartridge. That's for ranges 70m - 400m. For 200m - 1300m, the muzzle velocity is 126m/s, for a decent muzzle energy of 26,671J / 19,672 ft-lbs. 350m - 2100m requires a muzzle velocity of 170m/s, and thus 48,552J / 35,810 ft-lbs of energy. 500m - 2800m, 208m/s, 72,684 J / 53,609 ft-lbs. 650m - 3500m, 241m/s, 97,576J / 72,968 ft-lbs.
A .50BMG generates about as much energy as the 350m - 2100m round. So it appears it was me who overestimated the recoil. At least energy-wise, it shouldn't be that bad. The 170m/s round generates 286kgm/s momentum though, while the .50BMG only generates about 45kgm/s -- dunno how that affects the recoil.
[Edit]Nice... Birdy's Twilight2k group had the heavy mortar support of a Russian Infantry Regiment.
[/Edit]
| QUOTE (Phaeton) |
| I mean, they are somewhat useless. Their ammo's availability in SR is deadly high. And I can't even find any mortars in the Wordman list. |
Oh, yeah. I love mortars for my ex-merc character (and his favorite sidearm is an HMG named Betsy).
Obviously, mortars (and HMGs, and milgrade armor) aren't exactly everyday weapons. More often than not, my character ends up in street leathers trying to get an Ares Viper or Predator do the work of an assault rifle. (Oddly enough, everytime I take a look at a prospective run and decide, "Gee, I don't need/can't use my big guns or armor for this one," the GM decides to throw encounters at me where I could actually use the stuff.)
But I have gotten some great use out of mortars. You can put them quite some distance away from battle (almost like a decker or drone rigger) and have some "vulnerable" runner (like a decker or drone rigger) drop in some guided munitions from time to time, or fire smoke rounds on pre-plotted coordinates. That way, you don't actually have to bring The Big Guns to sensitive meetings. You can leave them on a rooftop blocks away. Heck, you don't even need line of sight.
I think I've gotten (narrowly) more use out of mortar-delivered smoke rounds than mortar-delivered explosives.
Think of them as oversized, remote grenade launchers that can help you out of a sticky situation. Mortars are definitely a contingency weapon that needs some preplanning to work, including taking care with the locals. Setting up a mortar in an A- or B-security rating neighborhood to rain destruction on a meet in an AA-rated neighborhood is just begging for trouble, and you need all the usual heavy weapon precautions for hiding, carrying, deploying, etc.
| QUOTE |
| Setting up a mortar in an A- or B-security rating neighborhood to rain destruction on a meet in an AA-rated neighborhood is just begging for trouble [...] |
Dunno what kind of neighborhood A or B actually looks like, but firing a mortar out of any kind of built-up neighborhood is just begging for trouble. As long as you've got low buildings and spacious yards, it's at least physically possible. Downtown, well, you either have to fire it from a rooftop (which poses loads of new problems) or find a street that happens to head straight for your target for up to a hundred meters or more (depending on the height of the surrounding buildings and the distance to the target) and fire the mortar in the middle of it.
I know you know this, but it bears reminding for the people who right now might be reading this and thinking "Gotta get my Troll Street Sammy one of 'em mortars, they must be really sweet for urban CQB".
No heavy weapons of any sort, including mortars, have been used in any game I've been in since my first (and admittedly out-of-control) SR2 campaign . Even then, I think it was limited to one guy with a Panther Assault Cannon.
I had a rigger in one of my games with a naval mortar mounted on one of her citymasters... then she accidentally hit the car right in front of our weapons specialist's car with a round, car stops dead, car behind it full of explosives and ammo slams into it... hell, all that boom and all she took out was a trio of backup goons... target got away...
We've never used the mortar system, but in our group we have one troll who wants to throw them like massive grenades and a rigger that wants to a drop laser guided mortar round from a blimp drone.
| QUOTE (Phaeton) |
| Hmm... Never knew cybereye lasers could be used like that. |
Cybereye Laser Designators, pages 14 and 15 of Man & Machine.
I run lots of high-wargear missions, so they show up fairly often.
But the Shadowrun mortars aren't like the ones we know today- I seem to remember them being auto-loaders and such.
But the Shadowrun mortars aren't like the ones we know today- I seem to remember them being auto-loaders and such.
| QUOTE (moosegod) |
| But the Shadowrun mortars aren't like the ones we know today- I seem to remember them being auto-loaders and such. |
Which ones do you remember being auto-loaders? The SR ones don't seem to be (at least the M-12 is muzzle loaded, 1 round at a time), nor are most RL ones.
There are a few RL automatic mortars, like the Vasilek (a Russian clip-fed 82mm). The AMOS (a Finnish/Swedish 2-barreled breech-loading 120mm mortar turret) doesn't seem to be automatic after all. But these are huge beasts: the Vasilek (or the Chinese copy, the W99) weighs in at 650kg, while the US M252 81mm mortar weighs 40kg.
I think that if weapons like the Vasilek exist in canon Shadowrun, they're considered cannons/howitzers in the rules, not mortars. They are even harder to use successfully for shadowrunning, since they take far longer to set up and then take down again (more akin to a light howitzer in that respect) and because they are bulkier and heavier they are nearly impossible to lug around anywhere.
But hell, SR's got rules for MBTs, why no this.
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) |
| A .50BMG generates about as much energy as the 350m - 2100m round. So it appears it was me who overestimated the recoil. |
Sounds like if you are big enough to swing around the mortar tube like an M79, you are big enough to handle the recoil. Interesting option for troll mercs.
| QUOTE (Game2BHappy) |
| We've never used the mortar system, but in our group we have one troll who wants to throw them like massive grenades... |
You will probably be just as well off by filling a coffee can with a mix of C4 and ball bearings and then stuff in a normal grenade to touch the whole mess off.
From the Medal of Honor Citations, WWII (A-F):
| QUOTE |
| ANDERSON, BEAUFORD T. Rank and organization: Technical Sergeant, U.S. Army, 381st Infantry, 96th Infantry Division. Place and date: Okinawa, 13 April 1945. Entered service at: Soldiers Grove, Wis. Birth: Eagle, Wis. G.O. No.: 63, 27 June 1946. Citation: He displayed conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity above and beyond the call of duty. When a powerfully conducted predawn Japanese counterattack struck his unit's flank, he ordered his men to take cover in an old tomb, and then, armed only with a carbine, faced the onslaught alone. After emptying 1 magazine at pointblank range into the screaming attackers, he seized an enemy mortar dud and threw it back among the charging Japs, killing several as it burst. Securing a box of mortar shells, he extracted the safety pins, banged the bases upon a rock to arm them and proceeded alternately to hurl shells and fire his piece among the fanatical foe, finally forcing them to withdraw. Despite the protests of his comrades, and bleeding profusely from a severe shrapnel wound, he made his way to his company commander to report the action. T/Sgt. Anderson's intrepid conduct in the face of overwhelming odds accounted for 25 enemy killed and several machineguns and knee mortars destroyed, thus single-handedly removing a serious threat to the company's flank. |
So either these were japanese knee mortar rounds or the US 60mm rounds. Either way, it seems that at least that part of Saving Private Ryan is true to life.
BTW, the citations are truly worth reading. Though especially the WWII ones do not portray the japanese very nicely, some of them are rather, how should I put it, awe-inspiring -- like that of Baker, Thomas A. (I must admit that that specific citation does seem like it's been polished a bit, though. I mean, 8 kills with 8 shots? And no one took the bodies away?)
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