I'm considering using the alternate combat rule in the book where some modifiers affect the threshold in combat instead of the attackers dice pool.
I'm thinking of applying it to:
Range
Cover
Background count
So then if you had good cover instead of the shooter rolling 4 less die they would essentially be subracting 4 hits.
What I'm thinking this may do.
-combat becomes tactical again as even good shots would struggle putting solid hits into people with good cover. So considering cover going in, and sending out the adept to flank the enemy after a firefight starts are going to start showing up again.
-shooting at someone in cover is less likely to cause a bunch of guards to roll critical glitches
-combat slows down as people spend time getting cover instead of shooting and spend time missing/not getting solid hits
-risk of encouraging heavier weapons. If you often are only connecting with one hit or two that assault rifle with tracers/grenade launcher starts looking extra tempting.
-as a GM I have to make more maps and the like. If the players really don't care about cover you don't have to go to all the work to describe it.
I'm wondering if you guys have some thoughts and if you've tried it in your campaign? For people who played in previous editions, where this is closer to how it worked, do you envision problems in 4th ed that wouldn't have been around in 2nd?
Do you think aiming should reduce the threshold, if present, instead of always just adding a die?
Full Version: "Threshold increase" alternate combat rule
| QUOTE (sunnyside) |
| I'm considering using the alternate combat rule in the book where some modifiers affect the threshold in combat instead of the attackers dice pool. I'm thinking of applying it to: Range Cover Background count So then if you had good cover instead of the shooter rolling 4 less die they would essentially be subracting 4 hits. What I'm thinking this may do. -combat becomes tactical again as even good shots would struggle putting solid hits into people with good cover -shooting at someone in cover is less likely to cause a bunch of guards to roll critical glitches -combat slows down as people spend time getting cover instead of shooting and spend time missing/not getting solid hits -risk of encouraging heavier weapons. If you often are only connecting with one hit or two that assault rifle with tracers/grenade launcher starts looking extra tempting. I'm wondering if you guys have some thoughts and if you've tried it in your campaign? For people who played in previous editions, where this is closer to how it worked, do you envision problems in 4th ed that wouldn't have been around in 2nd? |
This will slow combat to a halt for many, which may not be bad.
One thing I worry about though is that it will not have that horrible of an impact on super gun nuts.
Example:
Guard and PC both get "good cover (-4)
Basic guard has 8-10 dice getting around 3 hits on average... he misses every time on average.
PC gun nut has 18 dice... gets 6 hits on average... 2 net hits.
Guard can dodge the 2 hits easily.
End result: PC has a hell of a time hitting the guard (hello area weapons) but the guard can just NOT hit a PC.
What happens when the threshold exceeds the dice pool?
@lunch
Actually unless on full defense 2 net hits will usually connect with one against a typical guards reaction.
Still semi stagnant shootouts are a possibility if nobody moves to flank or somesuch.
And, yes, risk of area weapons etc as mentioned above.
@moonhawk. You'd have to spend edge same as in the default case. Except instead of a "longshot" you'd be spending as normal for extra die and exploding 6's
Actually unless on full defense 2 net hits will usually connect with one against a typical guards reaction.
Still semi stagnant shootouts are a possibility if nobody moves to flank or somesuch.
And, yes, risk of area weapons etc as mentioned above.
@moonhawk. You'd have to spend edge same as in the default case. Except instead of a "longshot" you'd be spending as normal for extra die and exploding 6's
| QUOTE (Moon-Hawk) |
| What happens when the threshold exceeds the dice pool? |
"Guy jumps over the sofa and you have to shoot at him for 10 F***ing minutes."
(name that movie reference to get a karma)
I guess people are SOL then.
Boondock Saints
Boondock Saints.
Anyway you can negate that modifier by shooting through the sofa. But then the armor value goes up.
EDIT: Argh beaten.
Anyway you can negate that modifier by shooting through the sofa. But then the armor value goes up.
EDIT: Argh beaten.
1 karma each
True barrier destruction would be the way to do it. So the heavy weapons would be used more often.
Wouldn't that also be a blind fire modifier... and therefore lose 6 hits according to the above mentioned rules?
True barrier destruction would be the way to do it. So the heavy weapons would be used more often.
Wouldn't that also be a blind fire modifier... and therefore lose 6 hits according to the above mentioned rules?
| QUOTE (lunchbox311) |
| Wouldn't that also be a blind fire modifier... and therefore lose 6 hits according to the above mentioned rules? |
Indeed. Truely the sofa is an impenetrable defense from small arms fire.
I don't think blind fire counts when you can see the person. And blind fire wasn't explicitly stated as being in the list of things that switch to threshold, though maybe it should be in cases where you only roughly know where the person is and you're trying to hit them. (Such as if they were totally hiding behind a sofa, or if they were invisible).
Still I'm not writing a new game system here. I'm interested in your opinions how the alt rules compares to the default system, which I also think handles blind fire unrealistically.
Still I'm not writing a new game system here. I'm interested in your opinions how the alt rules compares to the default system, which I also think handles blind fire unrealistically.
| QUOTE (sunnyside @ Jun 15 2007, 01:39 PM) |
| I don't think blind fire counts when you can see the person. And blind fire wasn't explicitly stated as being in the list of things that switch to threshold, though maybe it should be in cases where you only roughly know where the person is and you're trying to hit them. (Such as if they were totally hiding behind a sofa, or if they were invisible). Still I'm not writing a new game system here. I'm interested in your opinions how the alt rules compares to the default system, which I also think handles blind fire unrealistically. |
While it was not listed... full cover is the same as blind fire.
Honestly I think it will do more harm than good. My answer if combat gets too deadly or one sided is to throw some situational modifiers. Many times the environment will be distracting.
Try these on for size:
-If the group is breaking into a place... the guards will have home ground advantage... +2 dice on all tests basically.
-Gunshots are loud.... really loud in an indoor enviroment. If the group does not have proper ear protection then they can lose some dice due to disorientation or similar effects (this also makes non text communication difficult and opens up the door for flanking.)
-Smoke... a little bit goes a long ways especially in an indoor environment where it has no room to escape.
-Infiltration tests can be done to make surprise attacks. Unless a character takes a simple action to observe in detail (minus adepts with multi tasking who get it as a free action) they are -2 dice to notice. This can make surprises happen real fast... especially taking into consideration the incredible movement modifiers in this game.
Also remember that if you are doing blind fire... you use intuition NOT agility as your linked stat... for most gunbunnies that will drop the pool a significant margin.
All that said most combat in shadowrun is fast and deadly. A skilled shooter will hit his mark most of the time and it will usually be deadly.
Edit:
I will run some trials of your system idea with a friend or 2 and see how it plays out. If I find a way to make it work well... I will let you know. Otherwise I will post my comparative results here as soon as I get them.
I agree with you though... I am all for making combat tactical and not just bam bam bam time for the mage.
| QUOTE (lunchbox311) |
| PC gun nut has 18 dice... gets 6 hits on average... 2 net hits. Guard can dodge the 2 hits easily. End result: PC has a hell of a time hitting the guard (hello area weapons) but the guard can just NOT hit a PC. |
You can get two success on average using his reaction of 4? Really? How?
Just to be clear I'm not trying to make combat less deadly. Nor do I really want it to take longer, though that's OK if it's more fun/interesting. I'd rather have 10 minutes of fun/interesting combat than 4 minutes of two groups lining up like redcoats and continentals and just firing away.
Also just a math thing to note. This change doesn't reduce the potential hits at all. i.e. if guards are shooting at you in good cover with 10 die they can get a max of six hits either way. The difference is that before they'd usually connect with a pair of hits, and after the change they'll usually miss. They'll still connect occasionally though.
And if aiming is ruled to also affect thresholds they have a counter if your char stays popped up too long. I think I like that balance. If guards are taking pop shots at you just poking your head up you're hard to hit. But if you just stay there firing back someone will take the time to blow your head off. (ach there's a difference between 2nd and 4th, "headshot" isn't so clearly defined. Used to be if only your head was visible it was a headshot and that was easy to handle).
Also just a math thing to note. This change doesn't reduce the potential hits at all. i.e. if guards are shooting at you in good cover with 10 die they can get a max of six hits either way. The difference is that before they'd usually connect with a pair of hits, and after the change they'll usually miss. They'll still connect occasionally though.
And if aiming is ruled to also affect thresholds they have a counter if your char stays popped up too long. I think I like that balance. If guards are taking pop shots at you just poking your head up you're hard to hit. But if you just stay there firing back someone will take the time to blow your head off. (ach there's a difference between 2nd and 4th, "headshot" isn't so clearly defined. Used to be if only your head was visible it was a headshot and that was easy to handle).
| QUOTE (kzt) | ||
You can get two success on average using his reaction of 4? Really? How? |
You are correct... it would only be one on average. My oversight.
Still... it gets real hard to hit real fast even for a twinked character.
I did a little sample testing: street sam vs corpsec guard.
The only modifier I placed on either of them was "good cover" (-4 hits)
It took me 9 combat turns (or 27 iniatitive passes) before anyone landed a hit. The street sam had a roll of 6 hits at that point with 4 dropped automatically. Then the guard had a reation test and removed another hit.
1 net hit was damage so it was damage resistance time.
Sam had SMG type with regular ammo. 3 round burst.
So damage was 6 or 8 with burst fire.
Guard had body 3 and armor 6. Rolls 9 dice to drop 8 boxes of stun damage.
I stopped after that because it got boring.
it took 30 seconds for either one to even hit. The guard at this point would not have ANY chance to hit after wound modifiers.
I guess this makes for the hollywood shootouts... but it would bog down combat. This took forever with only 2 characters involved... Imagine the results from a whole group of say 4 runners and a few guards. Combat would take HOURS to resolve for basically a 30 second battle.
As is I stand by my examples above as modifiers to drop those dice pools.... that way a lucky shot can still hit and you do not have people bringing grenade launchers on every run or just blowing the whole place apart.
| QUOTE (sunnyside) |
| Just to be clear I'm not trying to make combat less deadly. Nor do I really want it to take longer, though that's OK if it's more fun/interesting. I'd rather have 10 minutes of fun/interesting combat than 4 minutes of two groups lining up like redcoats and continentals and just firing away. |
Supressive fire is good for that. If they do not go for cover... they will be hit by a bullet or 2 (depends on the number of people using it.)
Supressive fire will force all but the bravest of characters into hiding... and then it can be good cover vs. good cover fights with each side losing 4 or more dice per roll.
Combat could be real interesting then.
We're posting at the same time here.
lunch, what would happen if you used the "aiming lowers threshold" and wide burst options?
So the sammie would be rolling their 18 die against a 3 threshold and 1 die for dodging. That should be a hit nearly every time.
Also anyone have any suggestions on offering "headshots" if that's what you're shooting at anyway? Maybe as part of a "good" cover situation you only go against what armor is on the head and get the +4 damage?
This is really a second subject independent of the thresholds discussion. The question being if your player can only shoot at a targets head due to cover, should they count as hitting them in the head, and what should that mean? The only reason its relevant to this discussion is that in "regular" play cover is sufficiantly pointless that the issue won't come up much.
lunch, what would happen if you used the "aiming lowers threshold" and wide burst options?
So the sammie would be rolling their 18 die against a 3 threshold and 1 die for dodging. That should be a hit nearly every time.
Also anyone have any suggestions on offering "headshots" if that's what you're shooting at anyway? Maybe as part of a "good" cover situation you only go against what armor is on the head and get the +4 damage?
This is really a second subject independent of the thresholds discussion. The question being if your player can only shoot at a targets head due to cover, should they count as hitting them in the head, and what should that mean? The only reason its relevant to this discussion is that in "regular" play cover is sufficiantly pointless that the issue won't come up much.
I think this could be an interesting optional rule, but at first glance, it seems to me in some situations, you'll just end up with a standoff and I think players could get frustrated with that.
I've been using the skill cap optional rule for a long time and that allows me to not worry about huge dice pools. I know that at some point, the character with x skill is only ever going to get x + 1 hits, so even if they have a dice pool of 100, I don't have to worry about an ungodly amount of hits...
I think its harder for players to see that threshold moving for combat actually causing a lot more difficulty then it looks. But, I think as long as you are only capping one thing at a time, you should be okay...it will definitely give combat a different feel, but seeing most of our combat, say, 4 on 6 in a warehouse, already takes 30-45 minutes for about 2-3 combat turns, I don't see a need to make that any longer:)
I've been using the skill cap optional rule for a long time and that allows me to not worry about huge dice pools. I know that at some point, the character with x skill is only ever going to get x + 1 hits, so even if they have a dice pool of 100, I don't have to worry about an ungodly amount of hits...
I think its harder for players to see that threshold moving for combat actually causing a lot more difficulty then it looks. But, I think as long as you are only capping one thing at a time, you should be okay...it will definitely give combat a different feel, but seeing most of our combat, say, 4 on 6 in a warehouse, already takes 30-45 minutes for about 2-3 combat turns, I don't see a need to make that any longer:)
| QUOTE (sunnyside @ Jun 15 2007, 02:54 PM) |
| We're posting at the same time here. lunch, what would happen if you used the "aiming lowers threshold" and wide burst options? So the sammie would be rolling their 18 die against a 3 threshold and 1 die for dodging. That should be a hit nearly every time. Also anyone have any suggestions on offering "headshots" if that's what you're shooting at anyway? Maybe as part of a "good" cover situation you only go against what armor is on the head and get the +4 damage? This is really a second subject independent of the thresholds discussion. The question being if your player can only shoot at a targets head due to cover, should they count as hitting them in the head, and what should that mean? The only reason its relevant to this discussion is that in "regular" play cover is sufficiantly pointless that the issue won't come up much. |
So basically take aim actions reduce thresholds by 1 each and wide bursts reduce thresholds as well instead of reduce defense dice?
That could work... I will have to fiddle around with that and see.
BTW: I am using stock sam out of the book who gets 10-12 dice to throw at most attacks just for effect. I will test said 18+ die super killer afterwards.
Edit: or owuld wide bursts still do the wide burst thing?
The problem seems to be landing a hit at all because even with your example corp sec guard has 8 dice (with smartlink) to throw. with a threshold of 3. and now people lose 2 reaction to dodge..... It may work. I will play with that and see.
I queue dice rolls for NPCs (and PCs if they ask) in combat (I roll a bunch and write the results down on paper then read them off line by line as combat goes on). I also drive my players to act quickly in combat (if they stall or ask too many questions it becomes an observe in detail action and I move on, I mean their character has to make a decision in half a second).
So my fights take maybe a fifth the time yours do, maybe less. Therefore I've got some room to grow.
And I agree you could get a "standoff" type scenario. It's called being "pinned down" i.e. they're OK behind the cover and can pop some semi effective shots off with pistols, but they'd get cut down if they just jumped out. That made for some of the more dramatic scenes back in my SR2 days. Doubly so since they can't just "pause" things, if they have to talk for a while gametime is passing and the swat team is getting closer.
What I'm worried about is that happening way to often, or general combat getting too slow, or weird rule interactions that would result that would make the game grind to a halt while they have to be sorted out.
So my fights take maybe a fifth the time yours do, maybe less. Therefore I've got some room to grow.
And I agree you could get a "standoff" type scenario. It's called being "pinned down" i.e. they're OK behind the cover and can pop some semi effective shots off with pistols, but they'd get cut down if they just jumped out. That made for some of the more dramatic scenes back in my SR2 days. Doubly so since they can't just "pause" things, if they have to talk for a while gametime is passing and the swat team is getting closer.
What I'm worried about is that happening way to often, or general combat getting too slow, or weird rule interactions that would result that would make the game grind to a halt while they have to be sorted out.
Shoot we're still posting simultaniously.
@lunch. Now I was having wide work as normal. Aim reduces threshold 1 each (so you can always drop the threshold by one if you give up a double tap). Wide burst works as normal, it's just more useful than focused in this tactical situation I think.
So threshold goes from 4 to 3 and the guards dodge pool goes from 4 to 1.
Even on 12 die you should hit most of the time. And if you decide that hit counts against a head that hit should hurt.
@lunch. Now I was having wide work as normal. Aim reduces threshold 1 each (so you can always drop the threshold by one if you give up a double tap). Wide burst works as normal, it's just more useful than focused in this tactical situation I think.
So threshold goes from 4 to 3 and the guards dodge pool goes from 4 to 1.
Even on 12 die you should hit most of the time. And if you decide that hit counts against a head that hit should hurt.
| QUOTE (sunnyside) |
| I also drive my players to act quickly in combat (if they stall or ask too many questions it becomes an observe in detail action and I move on, I mean their character has to make a decision in half a second). Doubly so since they can't just "pause" things, if they have to talk for a while gametime is passing and the swat team is getting closer. |
My players have been doing this lately and I am getting tired of it myself. Honestly I think I may do that as well... problem is that a couple of my players are slower than others (in the head) and the time wasted with them give the others a better idea of what to do.
*shrug*
The threshold idea has merit. I am willing to give it a go for a session and see what happens.
I'd also suggest the queueing thing to anyone. I tried it one day back when I playing a cancer causing game and wanted to have a fight with four dozen NPCs involved (12 with the players 36 against). The fight was fast and fun and I've never looked back. Of course I still roll for really important stuff for dramatic effect.
Again the only reason that's relevant is that it's more likely to be a big deal with the threshold rule, since it's more likely to generate situations where the clever "buy successes" rule isn't going to help you speed things up nearly as much.
Again the only reason that's relevant is that it's more likely to be a big deal with the threshold rule, since it's more likely to generate situations where the clever "buy successes" rule isn't going to help you speed things up nearly as much.
Yeah, I ended my DMing career going to using pregenerated lists of numbers...it was a lot quicker, but I have to say that my player (back then and now) really like to roll their dice...
But back to the topic, I'd certainly be interested to see how this comes out. I don't think I can do it in my game, just becaue of the already capped skills...but maybe if we run a new campaign down the road, this could be a fun alternate.
But back to the topic, I'd certainly be interested to see how this comes out. I don't think I can do it in my game, just becaue of the already capped skills...but maybe if we run a new campaign down the road, this could be a fun alternate.
Could always try a oneshot seperate game, maybe if a couple people call in sick.
And I always let my players roll unless they don't want to. It's only for NPCs.
Anyway I guess at this point I'm sorta asking multiple questions.
#1 Is the threshold thing just a world of hurt or tactical fun. (and does that answer mostly depend on whether a shootout of 6 v 6 in a warehouse takes 45 minutes or 5 minutes for your group if they're using the regular rules.)
#2 What is the best blend of options for the threshold rule. They don't spell it out, they just say some things might affect thresholds. Should smartlinks? Vision modifiers? It's up to the GM. I'm thinking a good blend would be cover, range, background count, and aiming should affect threshold and the rest should affect modifiers as normal.
#3 Should I make a houserule for headshots either involving good cover or not. This didn't need a houserule in earlier editions as they had headshot rules. If only the targets head was visible, it counted as a headshot(the penalty on the attack in those situations was as bad if not than a regular headshot), simple as that. In SR4 I'd need a special ruling because right now you can't shoot someone in the head. You can bypass armor or get +4 damage, but you can't actually shoot them in the head.
And I always let my players roll unless they don't want to. It's only for NPCs.
Anyway I guess at this point I'm sorta asking multiple questions.
#1 Is the threshold thing just a world of hurt or tactical fun. (and does that answer mostly depend on whether a shootout of 6 v 6 in a warehouse takes 45 minutes or 5 minutes for your group if they're using the regular rules.)
#2 What is the best blend of options for the threshold rule. They don't spell it out, they just say some things might affect thresholds. Should smartlinks? Vision modifiers? It's up to the GM. I'm thinking a good blend would be cover, range, background count, and aiming should affect threshold and the rest should affect modifiers as normal.
#3 Should I make a houserule for headshots either involving good cover or not. This didn't need a houserule in earlier editions as they had headshot rules. If only the targets head was visible, it counted as a headshot(the penalty on the attack in those situations was as bad if not than a regular headshot), simple as that. In SR4 I'd need a special ruling because right now you can't shoot someone in the head. You can bypass armor or get +4 damage, but you can't actually shoot them in the head.
I use this system and it works fine. I think that it makes the game more tactical then the dice pool version. In fact I moved most of the equipment stuff to threshold modifiers.
Basically the way I do it is this:
If it is hindering a character specifically - such as wound penalties, armor, etc then it is a dice pool modifier.
If it is an environmental difficulty - range, visibility, etc then it is a threshold modifier. If the equipment would negate this normally then it reduces the threshold. Most equipment does this instead of adding dice.
The problem is that people want to easily kill all their enemies. That is boring and unrealistic. Most shots in a gun fight miss. I'm not saying that you should have hour long gun fights but second long ones are just as dumb.
Basically the way I do it is this:
If it is hindering a character specifically - such as wound penalties, armor, etc then it is a dice pool modifier.
If it is an environmental difficulty - range, visibility, etc then it is a threshold modifier. If the equipment would negate this normally then it reduces the threshold. Most equipment does this instead of adding dice.
The problem is that people want to easily kill all their enemies. That is boring and unrealistic. Most shots in a gun fight miss. I'm not saying that you should have hour long gun fights but second long ones are just as dumb.
| QUOTE (sunnyside) |
| Could always try a oneshot seperate game, maybe if a couple people call in sick. And I always let my players roll unless they don't want to. It's only for NPCs. Anyway I guess at this point I'm sorta asking multiple questions. #1 Is the threshold thing just a world of hurt or tactical fun. (and does that answer mostly depend on whether a shootout of 6 v 6 in a warehouse takes 45 minutes or 5 minutes for your group if they're using the regular rules.) #2 What is the best blend of options for the threshold rule. They don't spell it out, they just say some things might affect thresholds. Should smartlinks? Vision modifiers? It's up to the GM. I'm thinking a good blend would be cover, range, background count, and aiming should affect threshold and the rest should affect modifiers as normal. #3 Should I make a houserule for headshots either involving good cover or not. This didn't need a houserule in earlier editions as they had headshot rules. If only the targets head was visible, it counted as a headshot(the penalty on the attack in those situations was as bad if not than a regular headshot), simple as that. In SR4 I'd need a special ruling because right now you can't shoot someone in the head. You can bypass armor or get +4 damage, but you can't actually shoot them in the head. |
The +4dv is what a shot to the head represents. Or did you want a hit to the head to just autokill someone?
+4 isn't quite a headshot.
For example a typical runner has an armored jacket and an unarmored head. In a headshot that jacket shouldn't matter. Even more perplexing for the rules is if you're shooting someone on a motorcycle with a helmet and no body armor. So you can't just combine the +4 and bypass armor rules to represent a headshot.
Still I'm thinking the +4 should be integral to a headshot. Really it would seem that +4 and only the armor on the head matters for X penalty would do the trick. The only question is what should X be.
I guess from the good cover example maybe X should be a theshold of 4. And if the head itself has some cover (only peeking out a little) X should be 5.
For example a typical runner has an armored jacket and an unarmored head. In a headshot that jacket shouldn't matter. Even more perplexing for the rules is if you're shooting someone on a motorcycle with a helmet and no body armor. So you can't just combine the +4 and bypass armor rules to represent a headshot.
Still I'm thinking the +4 should be integral to a headshot. Really it would seem that +4 and only the armor on the head matters for X penalty would do the trick. The only question is what should X be.
I guess from the good cover example maybe X should be a theshold of 4. And if the head itself has some cover (only peeking out a little) X should be 5.
anyone ever used body dice to determine where a hit landed? i'm seriously considering it as i feel it would add more context for roleplaying wounds and increase combat's unpredictability.
what do you mean by Body dice?
| QUOTE (Garrowolf @ Jun 15 2007, 10:10 PM) |
| what do you mean by Body dice? |
I think he means a die with body locations on it. Often a D12. So you'd roll it and it would come up "right arm" and then your character is hit there. It's a quick and dirty way to handle hit locations.
Personally I don't feel such things mesh particularily well with shadowrun where degree of success is important for damage. For example you may roll a dozen hits and then roll up left foot, what happens then?
I guess deadlands had a system where degree of success let you move the hit location in towards critical spots. So for example if you rolled (on a D20 I think) an arm hit but you had a really good success you could move it into the "heart" region for bonus damage.
| QUOTE (deek) |
| I think this could be an interesting optional rule, but at first glance, it seems to me in some situations, you'll just end up with a standoff and I think players could get frustrated with that. |
Or you'll get players having several use suppressive fire while someone else sneaks up. Hmm, tactics. . .
| QUOTE (sunnyside @ Jun 15 2007, 10:20 PM) | ||
Personally I don't feel such things mesh particularily well with shadowrun where degree of success is important for damage. For example you may roll a dozen hits and then roll up left foot, what happens then? |
Not only that, what happens when you roll a dozen hits and peg the troll right in the eye... except then he proceeds to soak ALL the damage through an Edge boosted body test? Maybe that kinda thing made for a decent Superman trailer, but it gets kind of silly in SR4, an extremely abstract game. The game in general is quite a bit more elegant and believable if you simply wait until all the facts are in before you start getting too much into detail about what actually happens in any given combat exchange, since if you organize things poorly, it's hard to make Edge use at all believable without basically retconning the whole situation. Generally, my character's never been described as plugging someone right in the head in SR4 without it having been a real, honest to god kill shot or critical success, and it helps keep things a bit more plausible, and it doesn't require that any less decision making happens in the course of the game.
good points all around. i'm currently extremely unsatisfied with the way combat is being handled in an insanely combat heavy campaign that i'm playing and i'm tossing around ideas to speed it up, make it feel more earnest, and, most importantly, add tangible consequences [aside from body count] to resorting to violence. i like the idea of critical successes adding to an attack's apparent lethality, regardless of the size of the player's dice pool.
Well I did a few things to change the way combat goes. In 3rd ed I used a hit location system based on the damage that was dealt. Light wounds had no location. Moderate wounds had no vitals hits. Deadly wounds had no incidental damage locations. Certain levels caused you to loose that location. If you had cyberware there then it took all the damage and you took none. However it could be damaged or destroyed.
Having hit location for targeting as a threshold works well because it can quickly make the shot too hard to make. This keeps it from being done all the time.
Another thing that you can do is award hit location effects for making a crit in the first place. Give the player the choice of using the extra successes past the four that make it a crit to ignore their armor with all the damage OR use all the successes with a normal hit but cause a special effect.
Another thing that you can do is kill a character off and have them wake up anyway. With the high medical tech a character can be brutally killed and still be put back together.
Having hit location for targeting as a threshold works well because it can quickly make the shot too hard to make. This keeps it from being done all the time.
Another thing that you can do is award hit location effects for making a crit in the first place. Give the player the choice of using the extra successes past the four that make it a crit to ignore their armor with all the damage OR use all the successes with a normal hit but cause a special effect.
Another thing that you can do is kill a character off and have them wake up anyway. With the high medical tech a character can be brutally killed and still be put back together.
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