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MadPirate
Hi everyone !!!!

Well , this is the deal , i am currently running a SR4 Missions Campaign and one of my player runs a Mafia Soldier ( wich tons of cyberware our good old local don pid for ... ) , but since there is one technomancer in our group he was concerned about his "cyberware soft integrity". Now , i was thinking i could make his commlink a good router for his cyberware , giving him some extra peace.

Now , is there any "official rules" proxy program for this stuff ? .

The Mad Pirate
FriendoftheDork
Well he COULD do that but the techie could still hack the commlink and then control all the cyber... no better the skinlink it all. With no wireless it should be fine.
MadPirate
yeah , it could be fine , anyway i am running an "I Robot" concept in this campaign. That means i take like every single piece of new cyberware is matrix-related , most of all , for check-ups and firmware upgrade purposes.

The Mad Pirate
Rotbart van Dainig
Not really. It can be, but usually is healthier to turn it off.
MadPirate
hehehehehehehe , thanks for the data then , anyway , i gonna make him look out for a hacker who can shut down the upgrade system ( Evil Master Grin )....

cyber.gif

The Mad Pirate
MadPirate
anyway , i had just remeber that he has cyberwares with smartlink features , now , shutting down the matrix connection , wouldn't make his smarlink usless ?

The Mad Pirate
Rotbart van Dainig
No.
MadPirate
now there is another possibility .. he could make his cybeware go permanently in "hiden mode". What i was wondering is, wouldn't be a problem for him in case he enters a "dont-ever-think-about-hiding-your-comm-connection" zone , since most of the droids would detect him as running a hidden connection ?

The Mad Pirate
Ravor
As long as he was also running an Active PAN at the same time why would the Drones keep looking for a second Hidden PAN?
Buster
This is what I do, if anyone is interested in ideas:

I expose a "fake" cheapo earpiece commlink that has my "walking around" forged SIN (rating at least 3) that runs in exposed mode. Then I have a second very expensive commlink (high rating firewall, IC, etc) running in hidden mode in my cyberarm with my "runner" forged SIN. All my contacts reach me on my runner commlink, never on my cheapo commlink. After a run that may have dangerous consequences (i.e. all high-paying runs), I ditch both SINs and buy new ones. Expensive but worth the peaceful sleep.

I don't want anyone brushing up against me on the street or at a club and be able to hack all my systems, so I don't even use skinlinks. All my cyberware have only direct datajack link for maintenance access. My ultrasound sensor in my arm is connected to my cybereyes via an internal nanowire link. If I want to upload data from my cybereyes, I connect my commlink to my cybersystem via a physical switch in my hand. Even though my "runner" commlink is hidden in my cyberarm, I still have to make a physical connection to allow them to talk to each other. I have no wireless links or skinlinks for any of my cyberware. This way no one can hack me remotely or just brush up against me on the street and hack my systems. The only downside is if I want to start to discreetly uploading data, I have to make a small movement with my fingers to activate the connection.
Samantha
Let's just hope that you never get knocked out long enough for someone to stick a wifi transmitter into some crevise to start accessing those files.
Ravor
If that were to ever happen Samantha he'd have alot bigger worries then whether or not his network was accessed. cyber.gif


Still, personally even I think that his solution is a bit overkill, because someone merely brushing up against you on the street or in a club isn't really long enough to be a real danger of a Decker being able to hack your systems.

But then again, my characters also tend to run with 2 PANs, including 2 Datajacks in order to provide some sense of security for my gear.
Buster
Well, bumping into someone on the street isn't going to be long enough for a hacker to get you, but brushing up against someone while sitting or standing next to them in a club or in a bar is definitely going to give them enough time for hacking.
Samantha
Especially if that hacker is a technomancer.
Abbandon
skin hacking....

Ok since you guys brought it up can you give some worse case example of what a hacker/tm could do by touching someone with skinlinked gear??

Im thinking the worse they could do is shoot your gun? eyes/ears/limbs would all be DNI so no need for skinlinks there. Your datajack would most likely be skinned. What could they do turn it off or access all the files you have on it? (where do you guys say audio/video files from cyber is stored? in the device that records it?).

Anything else besides maybe your external normal comm gear. Glasses/contacts, earbuds, sub vocal mic, commlink... which you dont care about anyways since thats its purpose. Well maybe not the commslink.
Ravor
Abbandon

In theory a Decker could do anything to your gear that they could do while connected to your PAN through a Wireless Link, the only difference would be if a Runner was running multiple PANs.


<><><><><>


Samantha

You should read FrankTrollman's take on Technomancer vs Decker hacking abilities, basically unless you are using House Rules Technomancers aren't really any better then a Decker, because without a butt-load of Karma there is no way a Technomancer can get the same versality that a good Decker can through Nuyen alone. (Although they can rack up some really impressive Dicepools in their area of Focus and Sprites are awesome, they aren't the Kings of the Matrix anymore.)


<><><><><>


Buster

Ok, I see where you are coming from now, I guess I don't believe that a Runner would allow someone to remain in that type of casual contact with their body for any length of time.

But then again, I'm of the opinion that trying to shake hands with Mr Johnson at the meet is a good way to get iced as well. cyber.gif
kzt
QUOTE (Abbandon)
Ok since you guys brought it up can you give some worse case example of what a hacker/tm could do by touching someone with skinlinked gear??

leave a small device that can access their skinlink. And listen to all the RF traffic and find their "hidden" commlink. If the hacker is willing to remain close, the device can be a really low powered and tiny.
Samantha
I love RFID tags! Nothing says jerkwad like putting one on the back of a large troll that says "I like pink fluffy pillows."
kzt
QUOTE (Samantha)
Nothing says jerkwad like putting one on the back of a large troll that says "I like pink fluffy pillows."

In theory you could do AR spam to everyone but the toll. . .
Samantha
My point exactly. Although the next time someone used a RFID scanner near him, he'd find out about it.

Unless that person had a great sense of humor.
MadPirate
Hmmm .. i didnt thougth about the multiple PANs stuff. That should be giving my player a little bit more security although... . Anyway i decide to stick to the original idea.

The Mad pirate
bait
Multiple PANs provide no security, all it does is make it harder to monitor and creates a larger footprint.

A better idea is get a trusted source to rig up the comlink with ICE, and use a datajack to connect his cyberware to it. ( Skin link is still wireless and theres more then one way to touch someone.)
sunnyside
There isn't any reason you couldn't use DNI to disconect/reconect cyberware to your datajack is there? Alowing you to decide what it can talk to/what has access to it.

Samantha in case you don't read the other thread technomancers are awsome at everything. Specialites(what they have CFs for) are only a matter of what they can do all the time without using up favors or risking fading. A TM can have resonance x2 for any program they want to use whether they have a CF for it or not. I'll leave it at that to avoid a derail.
Ravor
Excuse me bait. Exactly how does running multiple PANs not provide extra security when set as as follows?

PAN I: Betagrade Datajack; skinlinked and loaded with as many ( Rating 4-5 ) ICE as you can fit onto it to create the nastiest chokepoint possible.

PAN II: DNI network of your cyberware, can be Subscribed to PAN I if you need to receive or send data but otherwise Wireless is disabled by default.

PAN III: Skinlinked network consisting of your gear which doesn't really need to recieve data from the outside world, such as your smartlinked weapons, ect. Can either include a skinlinked Trodenet or be subscribed through PAN I if DNI control is wanted.

PAN IV: This is your communications PAN running in Hidden Mode by default, and with the exception of PAN I the only "real PAN" with wireless active by default, although if your DM allows it, the indivadual equipment making up this PAN may be skinlinked to each other but not to PAN III.

PAN V: This is your 'Dummy' PAN running in Active Mode and trying to look like John Wageslave's PAN.

Now granted, this setup isn't perfect and it is more complex then many Runners would want to setup and mantain (In fact, my characters usually only run three PANs if you count the DNI cyberware connections as a PAN.), but how can you say that its less secure then only running one PAN?

Also am I missing something because its my understanding that skinlink is not Wireless in any way shape or form short of shooting someone with a skinlinked wireless transmitter dart... And good luck actually getting something liek that to work in combat.
Buster
QUOTE (Ravor @ Jun 24 2007, 05:40 PM)
But then again, I'm of the opinion that trying to shake hands with Mr Johnson at the meet is a good way to get iced as well.  cyber.gif

And if he's shaking your hand for a little too long, he may not be trying to hack you...he might be coming on to you... eek.gif

After some thought, most of my paranoia about skinlinks could be solved with a long sleeved shirt. biggrin.gif

Still I'll stick to my nanowire connections just to be safe. In Unwired, I just know they're going to come up with an undetectable sticky dot that broadcasts your skinlink transmissions. Someone bumps into you on the street and bam, all your cybereye and cyberear transmissions are all over the internet. Nah, I'll stick with direct hardwires for everything but my smartgun and smartdoc.
Ravor
QUOTE (Buster)
And if he's shaking your hand for a little too long, he may not be trying to hack you...he might be coming on to you... eek.gif


Well it is the 70s chummer. cyber.gif


As to the rest of your post, yeah I agree, although personally I let skinlinks work through normal clothes so long sleeve shirts wouldn't work in my campaigns, but a leather jacket would.
bait
QUOTE (Ravor)
Excuse me bait. Exactly how does running multiple PANs not provide extra security when set as as follows?

PAN I: Betagrade Datajack; skinlinked and loaded with as many ( Rating 4-5 ) ICE as you can fit onto it to create the nastiest chokepoint possible.

PAN II: DNI network of your cyberware, can be Subscribed to PAN I if you need to receive or send data but otherwise Wireless is disabled by default.

PAN III: Skinlinked network consisting of your gear which doesn't really need to recieve data from the outside world, such as your smartlinked weapons, ect. Can either include a skinlinked Trodenet or be subscribed through PAN I if DNI control is wanted.

PAN IV: This is your communications PAN running in Hidden Mode by default, and with the exception of PAN I the only "real PAN" with wireless active by default, although if your DM allows it, the indivadual equipment making up this PAN may be skinlinked to each other but not to PAN III.

PAN V: This is your 'Dummy' PAN running in Active Mode and trying to look like John Wageslave's PAN.

Now granted, this setup isn't perfect and it is more complex then many Runners would want to setup and mantain (In fact, my characters usually only run three PANs if you count the DNI cyberware connections as a PAN.), but how can you say that its less secure then only running one PAN?

Also am I missing something because its my understanding that skinlink is not Wireless in any way shape or form short of shooting someone with a skinlinked wireless transmitter dart... And good luck actually getting something liek that to work in combat.

Considering the character in question isn't a hacker himself, running multiple PANs adds to the amount of monitoring and adds more activity to his network traffic which attracts attention. ( Even hidden mode isn't fool proof.)

All you've done is add redundancy rather then security. ( Which is helpful in another case.)

A variation of your PAN II would be a better bet.

Basically, invest in a datajack ( Which is a wired connection.) and only connect to the comlink when you need diagnostics or doing updates. Invest in a good comlink with some IC on it as the character in question isn't a hacker.

This gets rid of most of the wireless security hole, and keeps our friend flying low on the radar.

As for skin link, its still a wireless signal but is limited to the surface of the characters skin. ( Great for espionage and courier characters, good idea to only use it when needed though.)

It still will show up on wireless scans, but won't be reachable without direct touch.

I do see a way this sort of touch can be accomplished with existing gear, take a sensor RFID with a modified Radio Signal Scanner. ( Modify it so it acts as a relay, you can even add skin link to it if you wish to treat skin link as a separate type of connection)

This will force the PAN to have a range of up to 3m directly, and could allow the hacker to use nearby access points to extend access even further.
Ravor
It's late so I could be missing something simple, but where exactly does RAW say that skinlink still shows up as Wireless Traffic?

Also although I'd agree that a Datajack does offer a wired connection, in a world where your Cyberarm and underware are wireless I find it hard to believe that a Datajack doesn't offer the same wireless connection that a set of Trodes does.
bait
QUOTE
Also although I'd agree that a Datajack does offer a wired connection, in a world where your Cyberarm and underware are wireless I find it hard to believe that a Datajack doesn't offer the same wireless connection that a set of Trodes does.


Lets put it this way, with all your other devices being wireless there is no reason why a device that provides a secure wired connection would be wireless it self. ( Aka you don't need the data jack to allow your other bits to access wireless communications.)

The whole point behind the datajack is to provide a secure/non-wireless connection.

QUOTE
  It's late so I could be missing something simple, but where exactly does RAW say that skinlink still shows up as Wireless Traffic?


RAW isn't very specific about the way skin link works, but I did provide a work around for either case. ( You'd just need to add skin link to the RFID sensor tag, and then it can bridge the traffic to wireless.)

Of course if you went with skin link is a separate communication type, everything you want to use with it would have to be adapted to it. ( Also brings up the issue with internal implants that don't have contact with surface skin.)

The above could be solved by adding skin link to a datajack, but then just using the datajack in the first place would've been cheaper. ( This is what happens when you have too much time on your hands and just enough caffeine in your system.)
DigitEyez
QUOTE
Skinlink: With skinlink, a device is adapted to send and receive data transmitted through the electrical field on the surface of metahuman skin. Though limited to touch, skinlink communication has the advantage of being protected from signal interception or jamming.


If it were wireless it wouldn't be limited to touch. The devices that use the skinlink might still also have a wireless link though...
bait
QUOTE
If it were wireless it wouldn't be limited to touch.


If you carry the wireless signal in the electrical field of the surface skin, then you could control the coverage provided and shield it from disruption. ( The entry for skin link isn't very descriptive on this, hope it gets updated.)

Thats where the modified RFID senor tag with Radio Signal Scanner comes into play. ( With or without skinlink depending on how you interpret the tech.)

The tag if modified would basically boost the signal outside the range of covered by the surface electrical field. ( With the non-wireless skin link, it would provide a bridge between the skin links signal and a normal wireless one.)
Ravor
QUOTE (bait)
Lets put it this way, with all your other devices being wireless there is no reason why a device that provides a secure wired connection would be wireless it self. ( Aka you don't need the data jack to allow your other bits to access wireless communications.)

The whole point behind the datajack is to provide a secure/non-wireless connection.


No, the whole point of the datajack is to provide a DNI connection to the outside world, the secure hardwired aspect is just an added bonus that could be easily gained by modifying a set of trodes.

QUOTE (bait)
RAW isn't very specific about the way skin link works, but I did provide a work around for either case. ( You'd just need to add skin link to the RFID sensor tag, and then it can bridge the traffic to wireless.)


Yeah, but the problem is that in order to detect/hack a skinlinked network your tags have to be in direct contact with your target, and that is more secure then a normal wireless network.

QUOTE (bait)
Of course if you went with skin link is a separate communication type, everything you want to use with it would have to be adapted to it. ( Also brings up the issue with internal implants that don't have contact with surface skin.)


This is the way it works now, you have to skinlink adapt any device that you want to be able to send or recieve skinlinked traffic, but if you want the same device could then resend the data using a different connection type.

There is nothing preventing the following setup if you wanted to send your guncam information to one of your chummers.

Predator IV <skinlink connection> Datajack <skinlink connection> Commlink <wireless connection> Chummer's Commlink <hardwired connection> Chummer's Smart Glasses

QUOTE (bait)
The above could be solved by adding skin link to a datajack, but then just using the datajack in the first place would've been cheaper. ( This is what happens when you have too much time on your hands and just enough caffeine in your system.)


Granted, using your datajack's wired (or wireless) connection would be 50-500 nuyen.gif cheaper then adapting it to be capable of interfacing with your skinlinked network, but having wires trailing out of your skull is more noticalbe and a snagging hazard compared to a skinlink connection.

As for adapting other cyber with skinlink, well I'd imagine that its fairly simple to run a wire from the implant to the skin, but as you said, its just as easy and cheaper to connect your cyber to a skinlinked datajack. (I prefer Betagrade as it allows for nastier ICE to be installed.)
bait
QUOTE
No, the whole point of the datajack is to provide a DNI connection to the outside world, the secure hardwired aspect is just an added bonus that could be easily gained by modifying a set of trodes.


No, wireless also provides DNI so that isn't unique to a datajack. ( Otherwise a smartgun system would require a datajack for instance.)

The only advantage a datajack provides is hardwired access to communications, as one of the specific examples in the entry is secure communications between two individuals.

QUOTE
Yeah, but the problem is that in order to detect/hack a skinlinked network your tags have to be in direct contact with your target, and that is more secure then a normal wireless network.


Direct contact isn't hard to accomplish, everything from "bumping" into the target with a adhesive slathered tag to actually planting the tag into someones clothing.

As for the security aspect, its only the extremely limited range that gives skinlink its advantage, but the modified tag acts to amp the signal or converting it into wireless signal therefore bypassing the range limitation. ( Also remember the target in question isn't a hacker so has less defenses.)

QUOTE
This is the way it works now, you have to skinlink adapt any device that you want to be able to send or recieve skinlinked traffic, but if you want the same device could then resend the data using a different connection type.

There is nothing preventing the following setup if you wanted to send your guncam information to one of your chummers.

Predator IV <skinlink connection> Datajack <skinlink connection> Commlink <wireless connection> Chummer's Commlink <hardwired connection> Chummer's Smart Glasses


Here's the problem, the character in question wants all of his cyber implants to be accessible to the matrix for updating and also wants to monitor them.

Skin link works along the surface of the skin and provides no means for sub-dermal implants to participate in the skin link network.

Because of the security concerns and the characters lack of cyber security abilities, its best to hardwire the connections.
Ravor
QUOTE (bait)
No, wireless also provides DNI so that isn't unique to a datajack. ( Otherwise a smartgun system would require a datajack for instance.)


No, a smartlink only requires a DNI connection through a datajack or trodes (Or I imagine an induction pad ala Third Edition.) if you want to issue mental commands to your weapon. Also since we know that Simsense Vertigo affects smartlink technology it's a safe bet that a Sim Module is also needed if you want to use all of your smartlink's functions.

QUOTE (bait)
The only advantage a datajack provides is hardwired access to communications, as one of the specific examples in the entry is secure communications between two individuals.


Yes that is the main advantage that a datajack has over trodes, it provides a hardwire connection, BUT that is a far cry from claiming that a datajack doesn't also provide a wireless connection. After all a datajack is both cyberware and an intra-PAN device which means that by RAW it has ( Signal 0 ) or in other words, a wireless range of 3 meters.

QUOTE (bait)
Direct contact isn't hard to accomplish, everything from "bumping" into the target with a adhesive slathered tag to actually planting the tag into someones clothing.


I'm not going to agrue over the ease or lack thereof in attaching your skinlink=>wireless RFID tags to someone, but the fact still stands that it is harder to detect or hack a skinlink network, so they are by their very nature more secure then a wireless network.

QUOTE (bait)
As for the security aspect, its only the extremely limited range that gives skinlink its advantage, but the modified tag acts to amp the signal or converting it into wireless signal therefore bypassing the range limitation. ( Also remember the target in question isn't a hacker so has less defenses.)


Yes I'll agree that the only reason skinlinks are more secure is the fact that its range is limited to a metahuman's bio-electric field, in fact I'll even agree that your skinlink=>wireless RFID tags would allow a Decker to hack into a skinlink network. Where I disagree is when you seem to be claiming that just because it's possible to bypass a skinlink's protection that skinlinks aren't more secure then wireless.

QUOTE (bait)
Skin link works along the surface of the skin and provides no means for sub-dermal implants to participate in the skin link network.


Perhaps, perhaps not, but since the doctor is already running wires to the skin, it shouldn't be that much harder to run the wire all the way to the skin's surface if that is what is necessary.
bait
QUOTE
No, a smartlink only requires a DNI connection through a datajack or trodes (Or I imagine an induction pad ala Third Edition.) if you want to issue mental commands to your weapon. Also since we know that Simsense Vertigo affects smartlink technology it's a safe bet that a Sim Module is also needed if you want to use all of your smartlink's functions.


No, DNI is possible over any network connection otherwise Riggers wouldn't be able to jump into there drones.

Simsense Vertigo effects AR / VR and simsense, its basically the same problem certain people face when dealing with motion in a projected 3d scene. ( Happens with FPS games.)

Datajacks are there to provide secure network connections via hardwire, where as trodes are to get around implanting devices to allow DNI connection and to avoid using wireless connections. ( Much more popular with the essence friendly crowd.)

QUOTE
Yes that is the main advantage that a datajack has over trodes, it provides a hardwire connection, BUT that is a far cry from claiming that a datajack doesn't also provide a wireless connection. After all a datajack is both cyberware and an intra-PAN device which means that by RAW it has ( Signal 0 ) or in other words, a wireless range of 3 meters.


Considering the datajack isn't required for other devices to connect as all devices default to having wireless connections. ( Which allows for interconnecting directly or more securely through a comlink.)

And the description specifically states that a datajack is for directly connecting to devices with a fibre optic cable.

Further, the data lock which is an advanced datajack specifically states its not wireless enabled.

QUOTE
Where I disagree is when you seem to be claiming that just because it's possible to bypass a skinlink's protection that skinlinks aren't more secure then wireless.


Never claimed that a skinlink was less secure then a wireless connection, just pointing out that skinlinks aren't secure beyond extremely limited range. ( And that an RFID sensor tag wouldn't be able to intercept the fibre optic communication, that sort of fun requires a bit more creativity.)

If we really want to get picky, a cyberware scanner would be able to pickup the presence of a skin link.
Ravor
QUOTE (bait)
No, DNI is possible over any network connection otherwise Riggers wouldn't be able to jump into there drones.


eek.gif You've got to be jerking my chain. *Sighs*

QUOTE (Shadowrun Fourth Edition; page 215)
Direct Neural Interface (DNI)—A connection between the brain’s neural impulses and a computer system, allowing a user to mentally interact with and control that system.


QUOTE (Shadowrun Fourth Edition; page 215)
Artificial Sensory Induction System Technology (ASIST)—Hardware and programs that allow one to directly experience the senses of another (simsense).


QUOTE (Shadowrun Fourth Edition; page 318)
Sim Module: The sim module is an ASIST interface that controls the simsense experience. It translates computer signals (simsense data) into neural signals, allowing the user to directly experience simsense programs and virtual reality (see Virtual Reality, p. 228). A sim module must be accessed via trodes or a direct neural interface (datajack, implanted commlink, etc).


When a Rigger jumps into a drone he does not have a DNI Connection to the drone, what he does have is a DNI Connection through his datajack/trodenet to a sim module which is then converted from neural signals into computer data and sent over a wireless connection to his drone.

*Edit* It's the same process as a Decker uses to enter a node using VR. */Edit*

QUOTE (bait)
Simsense Vertigo effects AR / VR and simsense, its basically the same problem certain people face when dealing with motion in a projected 3d scene. ( Happens with FPS games.)


And that may be part of it, however the problem is that we know that smartlinks make use of DNI directly, otherwise they couldn't be used to mentally issue commands to the gun.

*Edit* Hmm, upon futher reflection you may be right on Simsense Vertigo, although I'm not entirely convinced that if it were merely the motion sickness FPS can give people that it would affect people while in VR Mode at all. */Edit*

*Edit 2.0* However that doesn't change the fact that you still need a datajack or trodenet if you want to issue mental commands to your gun. */Edit 2.0*

QUOTE (bait)
Datajacks are there to provide secure network connections via hardwire, where as trodes are to get around implanting devices to allow DNI connection and to avoid using wireless connections. ( Much more popular with the essence friendly crowd.)


Well you are partially right, as trodes are an Essense friendly way of achieving DNI and that datajacks do offer a hardwire connection. However, we know that datajacks have the same wireless reach as trodes, so that also means that anything you can do with a trodenet, I can also do with a datajack. (Except remove it without visting a street doc of course. cyber.gif )

QUOTE (bait)
Considering the datajack isn't required for other devices to connect as all devices default to having wireless connections. ( Which allows for interconnecting directly or more securely through a comlink.)

And the description specifically states that a datajack is for directly connecting to devices with a fibre optic cable.


Wait a moment, if "all devices default to having wireless connections" as you've just admitted then that means that a datajack also defaults to having a wireless connection.

As for the datajack's description, it says that a datajack has a hardwired connection, but nowhere does it state that it doesn't also have a wireless connections, which remember "all devices default to having wireless connections".

And sure, you can use the wireless link built into your cyber to connect them to each other or to your commlink directly, no datajack needed (I think it's more secure to use your betagrade datajack as a really nasty ICE infested chokepoint for the rest of your cyber, and thats why I suggested doing it that way.) However you still won't be able to issue mental commands to your nonimplanted gear without either a datajack or trodenet.

QUOTE (bait)
Further, the data lock which is an advanced datajack specifically states its not wireless enabled.


Firstly a datalock is not an "advanced datajack", it's nothing more then a specialized version of a datajack that allows people to play Johny Memoric if they want to. Secondly if a baseline datajack wasn't wireless enabled then that fact wouldn't have to be noted in the datalock's description because it would have appeared somewhere in the datajack's description.

QUOTE (bait)
Never claimed that a skinlink was less secure then a wireless connection, just pointing out that skinlinks aren't secure beyond extremely limited range. ( And that an RFID sensor tag wouldn't be able to intercept the fibre optic communication, that sort of fun requires a bit more creativity.)


Ok sure, and I'll agree with the exception that skinlinks should be in widespread use among anyone who is both security minded and has the extra nuyen to blow on skinlink adapting his gear.

As for wires, yeah, they are more secure then skinlinks, however they are also a bigger hassle and skinlinks are generally speaking secure enough.

QUOTE (bait)
If we really want to get picky, a cyberware scanner would be able to pickup the presence of a skin link.


Meh, I don't know enough about millimeter-wave scanners to comment, but so what even if they did detect a skinlinked PAN? Skinlinking your gear is perfectly legal as long as your commlink is broadcasting whatever information the zone requires.
bait
QUOTE
When a Rigger jumps into a drone he does not have a DNI Connection to the drone, what he does have is a DNI Connection through his datajack/trodenet to a sim module which is then converted from neural signals into computer data and sent over a wireless connection to his drone.

*Edit* It's the same process as a Decker uses to enter a node using VR. */Edit*


Deckers are no more, there are only Hackers now. smile.gif

And heres what it says about Jumping In.

QUOTE
In this case the rigger essentially "becomes" the drone, perceiving through its sensors and operating it as if it were his own body.


and for Security riggers.

QUOTE
Security Riggers feel the opening of doors as light touches on their skin...


So, yes riggers have a DNI with the drones they jump into.

QUOTE
A sim module must be accessed via trodes or a direct neural interface (datajack, implanted commlink, etc).


Once again note the section on riggers jumping in.

QUOTE
And that may be part of it, however the problem is that we know that smartlinks make use of DNI directly, otherwise they couldn't be used to mentally issue commands to the gun.


SR4 Pg.312

QUOTE
The smartgun system can also be accessed via wireless link, allowing for the gun to be remotely fired or to block the trigger.



QUOTE
(I think it's more secure to use your betagrade datajack as a really nasty ICE infested chokepoint for the rest of your cyber, and thats why I suggested doing it that way.)


Much more important to protect the commlink rather the datajack.
Ravor
QUOTE (bait)
Deckers are no more, there are only Hackers now.


Not as far as I'm concerned.

QUOTE (bait)
And heres what it says about Jumping In.

QUOTE
In this case the rigger essentially "becomes" the drone, perceiving through its sensors and operating it as if it were his own body.


and for Security riggers.

QUOTE
Security Riggers feel the opening of doors as light touches on their skin...


So, yes riggers have a DNI with the drones they jump into.

QUOTE
A sim module must be accessed via trodes or a direct neural interface (datajack, implanted commlink, etc).


Once again note the section on riggers jumping in.


Nice try, but I think you need to read a little deeper as well as quote enough to get the full context of what RAW really says.

QUOTE (Shadowrun Fourth Edition; page 239)
Riggers may also take a Complex Action and “jump into? a drone via full-VR. In this case, the rigger essentially “becomes? the drone, perceiving through its sensors and operating it as if it were his own body.
(Boldfacing added.)

QUOTE (Shadowrun Fourth Edition; page 239)
It is possible for the devices in a security system (cameras, maglocked doors, tripwires, fixed gun-drones, and other sensors and sec-measures) to be rigger-adapted and subscribed to a central node so that a rigger can “jump into? the entire security system. Security riggers feel the opening of doors as light touches on their skin, the tripping of alarm sensors as a buzz in their fi ngers or an itch, and the building’s alarm literally goes off in their heads.
(Boldfacing added.)

It's clear that a Rigger "jumping into" a drone or a security network uses full VR, just like a Decker does when she jacks into the Matrix. Now lets see what RAW has to say on the issue of Virtual Reality.

QUOTE (Shadowrun Fourth Edition; page 228)
For those who want the full Matrix experience, you can go a step beyond AR and fully immerse your senses in the virtual reality (VR) simsense of the Matrix. Your physical perceptions in VR are overridden by the Matrix’s sensory information. Rather than experiencing the real world around your meat body, you only experiences the electronic simulation of the Matrix. A simsense module is required to access full VR. Th e sim module is a commlink accessory that you access with a datajack or trode net. Simrigs (both worn and implanted) and cranial commlinks also contain sim modules.
(Boldfacing added.)

Hmm, it seems that now that we know we need a sim module and a datajack/trodenet in order to access full-VR. Lets read up on what else RAW has to say on the issue.

QUOTE (Shadowrun Fourth Edition; page 318)
The sim module is an ASIST interface that controls the simsense experience. It translates computer signals (simsense data) into neural signals, allowing the user to directly experience simsense programs and virtual reality (see Virtual Reality, p. 228). A sim module must be accessed via trodes or a direct neural interface (datajack, implanted commlink, etc)
(Boldfacing added.)

Hmm, it seems that a sim module can only be accessed using a set of trodes or a direct neural interface such as a datajack, ect. Hmm, maybe we should go and see exactly what DNI is supposed to be again.

QUOTE (Shadowrun Fourth Edition; page 215)
Direct Neural Interface (DNI)—A connection between the brain’s neural impulses and a computer system, allowing a user to mentally interact with and control that system.
(Boldfacing added.)

Hmm, so DNI is the connection between a person's brain and a computer system, and we already know that DNI ends with the sim module and that a Rigger or Decker both need a sim module in order to experience full-VR in order to hack a node or "jump into" either a drone or a security system. So unless your sim module is installed in your drone you do not in fact have a DNI Connection to your drone, you are however using DNI to issue commands to the drone through a sim module and a datajack, ect.

Oh and before you try to bring up using AR to hack or command drones, lets see what RAW claims is the most common, albeit not the only way to experince AR as well.

QUOTE (Shadowrun Fourth Edition; page 209)
The easiest and most common way to get your AR fix, though, is through simsense. You need a sim module for your commlink to interpret the signals and feed you the data via a cyberware simrig, worn simrig, trode net, or datajack.


So even with AR most people still use a sim module to feed simsense data directly into your brain, ala a trodenet/datajack in order to create DNI. Although for some reason RAW doesn't notice a difference between someone who uses a keyboard and mouse to order his drones around and someone using DNI, but that doesn't really have any bearing on the issue at hand anyways.

QUOTE (bait)
SR4 Pg.312

QUOTE
The smartgun system can also be accessed via wireless link, allowing for the gun to be remotely fired or to block the trigger.


So, lets see what else RAW has to say on the matter.

QUOTE (Shadowrun Fourth Edition; page 135)
A character linked to and holding a ready smartgun may use a simple cybernetic command to eject the weapon’s clip. It still takes a Simple Action to insert a new, fresh clip. See Smartgun System, p. 311.
(Boldfacing added.)

QUOTE (Shadowrun Fourth Edition; page 136)
A character holding a ready fi rearm can change its fi ring mode via a Simple Action. If the weapon is a properly linked smartgun, it takes only a Free Action to change the mode.
(Boldfacing added.)

QUOTE (Shadowrun Fourth Edition; page 137)
Th e wielder of a linked smartgun may eject the gun’s clip by spending a Free Action to make a simple cybernetic command.
(Boldfacing added.)

Hmm not quite as definative as I would have liked, but lets move on and see what else RAW can tell us.

QUOTE (Shadowrun Fourth Edition; pages 311-312)
Smartgun System: Th e smartgun system connects a fi rearm or projectile weapon directly to a user’s smartlink (see p. 323). It incorporates a laser range fi nder and a small camera, and keeps track of ammunition, heat buildup, and material stress. It allows a smartlinked character to mentally switch between gun modes, eject clips, and fi re the gun without pulling the trigger.
(Boldfacing added.)

Hmm, although we aren't quite there yet, it's very interesting to note that a user has to be able to mentally command the smartlinked weapon if you want your smartlink to do anything other show you crosshairs and how many bullets you have left. And we've already been over what is needed to issue mental commands to your gear, that's right, a sim module and a datajack/trodenet.

However just to be on the safe side of things, lets look at what RAW says about the other half of a smartlink system.

QUOTE (Shadowrun Fourth Edition; pages 323-324)
Smartlink: This accessory interacts with a smartgun system (p. 311) to project the weapon’s angle of fire into the user’s vision, centering red crosshairs where the user is pointing and highlighting perceived targets. The smartgun’s laser rangefinder also calculates and displays the distance to the target. Additional data from the weapon, such as the ammunition level, heat buildup, and stress can also be displayed. Requires an image link.


Hmm, don't you find it rather interesting that the second half of a smartlink system doesn't even talk about how it too gives you the same ability to issue mental commands to your gear as a sim module would? In fact it doesn't look like there is any mention whatsoever of being able to actually issue commands to your weapon at all. However, just to be sure lets look at what the cyberimplant version does.

QUOTE (Shadowrun Fourth Edition; page 333)
Smartlink: An implanted version of the smartlink enhancement (see p. 323).


Hmm, so the implanted version isn't any more capable then the version you'd install in your glasses. So once again we've struck out on being able to issue mental commands to your gear without a sim module and everything that goes along with it.

However just to be perfectly clear, once you've achieved DNI to a sim module and the sim module has converted the DNI into computer data yeah, you can then transmit the computer data that used to be DNI over any type of connect you want to, whether it's wireless, skinlink, or hardwired. But it's incorrect to say that wireless connections allow you access to the goodies that DNI provides you.


QUOTE (bait)
Much more important to protect the commlink rather the datajack.


Well it depends on what you your goals are, mine is to make fragging sure that even if my commlink's security is breached or if spirits forbid my commlink is lost or damaged my cyberware is still as protected as possible.

Besides, since the ICE are going to be the only programs running on my datajack I can install and run as many of them as my betagrade datajack's ( Device Rating 5 ) can hold at all times, where-as I'd have to worry about mircomanaging the commlink's system load everytime I needed to change my program usage.

Although I will agree that protecting your commlink is very important as well, but in this case focusing on the datajack will provide the most security for my implanted cyberware since I might need to interact with a device using my datajack directly instead of my commlink sometimes. Or a sneaky Decker might be able to get within three meters of me while I have my datajack's wireless enabled for some reason. Yeah, it might not be very likely, but it is possible and I really don't want to have some Decker to be able to turn off my cybereyes or make my cyberhand crush my tricked-out predator's grip.

*Edit 1.2*

Plus one more upside to protecting my datajack is that in a search, 'Da Man' is less likely to look at what types of programs are running on my datajack then my commlink, plus it's harder for them to prevent me from shuting down and erasing anything illegal since I have fulltime DNI control to my datajack. Granted I'm not saying that it's foolproof by any means, but it is one more edge that I might need someday.
bait
Stop right there.

SR4 pg. 311 A smartgun system only requires a smart link.

Smart links are available as an implant or an accessory to googles/glasses/contacts, which have both wired and wireless connectivity.

The only requirement for both is an image link. ( Yes, this is interesting.)

SR4 pg. 312 The description for smartgun link explains you can use it wirelessly.

Specifically, Paragrph 2 line 4 which states.

QUOTE
The smartgun system can also be accessed via wireless link allowing the gun to be remotely fired or to block the trigger ( In case an opponent gets ahold of it).


This is RAW, stop dancing around this.

AR isn't the same as VR, as it doesn't require DNI interface. ( It also doesn't require simsense and only uses simsense for feedback.)

AR isn't immersive like VR, all its does is take the most important matrix information and presents them as objects in your field of vision. ( The picture at the top of SR4 pg. 211 illustrates this.)

The side bar on SR4 pg. 209 example #1 has Sketchy Alex using his devices through AR via a scroll wheel on his commlink.

As for...

QUOTE
Well it depends on what you your goals are


The OP was trying to find a way to protect his commlink.

QUOTE
but since there is one technomancer in our group he was concerned about his "cyberware soft integrity". Now , i was thinking i could make his commlink a good router for his cyberware , giving him some extra peace.
Ravor
QUOTE (bait)
Stop right there.

SR4 pg. 311 A smartgun system only requires a smart link.

Smart links are available as an implant or an accessory to googles/glasses/contacts, which have both wired and wireless connectivity.

The only requirement for both is an image link. ( Yes, this is interesting.)

SR4 pg. 312 The description for smartgun link explains you can use it wirelessly.

Specifically, Paragrph 2 line 4 which states.


QUOTE
The smartgun system can also be accessed via wireless link allowing the gun to be remotely fired or to block the trigger ( In case an opponent gets ahold of it).



This is RAW, stop dancing around this.


I'm not dancing around anything here, all that sentence says is that if someone without a sim module and everything that goes with it wants to use his keyboard and mouse to issue commands to the weapon remotely he can do so. (Not something that I see as generally being useful in battlefield conditions although it is an edge that someone somewhere might possibly be able to make use of.) Now show me how a smartlink system gives you the ability to issue mental commands to your weapon. (Hint, it involves a sim module as I've proven is needed for DNI commands using Deckers and Riggers.)


QUOTE (bait)
AR isn't the same as VR, as it doesn't require DNI interface. ( It also doesn't require simsense and only uses simsense for feedback.)

AR isn't immersive like VR, all its does is take the most important matrix information and presents them as objects in your field of vision. ( The picture at the top of SR4 pg. 211 illustrates this.)

The side bar on SR4 pg. 209 example #1 has Sketchy Alex using his devices through AR via a scroll wheel on his commlink.


Hmm, and I thought I had already covered this when I said the following;

QUOTE (Ravor)
Oh and before you try to bring up using AR to hack or command drones, lets see what RAW claims is the most common, albeit not the only way to experince AR as well.
(Boldfacing added.)

QUOTE (Ravor)
So even with AR most people still use a sim module to feed simsense data directly into your brain, ala a trodenet/datajack in order to create DNI. Although for some reason RAW doesn't notice a difference between someone who uses a keyboard and mouse to order his drones around and someone using DNI, but that doesn't really have any bearing on the issue at hand anyways.
(Boldfacing added.)

Yep, it seems that I've already stated that you don't need a sim module and DNI to use AR, but that doesn't change the fact that sim modules and DNI is the most common way for people to interact with AR.

QUOTE (Shadowrun Fourth Edition; page 209)
The easiest and most common way to get your AR fix, though, is through simsense. You need a sim module for your commlink to interpret the signals and feed you the data via a cyberware simrig, worn simrig, trode net, or datajack.
(Boldfacing added.)

And of course if you aren't using simsense and a sim module with AR then you aren't able to experence the full range of what AR has to offer.

QUOTE (Shadowrun Fourth Edition; page 209)
Partial simsense feeds take AR a step further because they can also relay emotions, though services that relay full emotive sim are rare (and sometimes illegal or downright disturbing)—do you really want a Buzz!Blitz energy drink advert to make you feel that way?


But yeah as I had stated in the very post you had responded to it is perfectly possible to use your keyboard and mouse to interact with AR and you can even hack or command your drones doing so without penality under RAW.


QUOTE (bait)
As for...


QUOTE
Well it depends on what you your goals are




The OP was trying to find a way to protect his commlink.


QUOTE
but since there is one technomancer in our group he was concerned about his "cyberware soft integrity". Now , i was thinking i could make his commlink a good router for his cyberware , giving him some extra peace.


Now please understand that I mean no disrespect if it's true, but is English not your first langauge? In the very portion of MadPirate's post that you quoted MadPirate was looking for a way to give one of MadPirate's players some peace of mind when it came to protecting the character's cyberware.
KarmaInferno
After reading through this thread, I am only further convinced my neo-luddite approach of disabling ALL wireless capacity on nearly all my character's equipment is the most prudent approach of avoiding being hacked. Skinlink, wireless, etc, all of it OFF. The only way my gear communicates is through hardwire connections.

The only wireless bit active is the commlink. Which is not connected to anything else, it's just for communication. If I want to share a piece of data I'll damn well load it onto a chip, take it out of my chipjack, and slot it into the commlink. If I wanna really really get live combat data from team-mates, I'll plug a pair of data glasses into the commlink.

Grarr.


-karma
Ravor
And Shadowrunners have been sucessfully pulling off runs with that exact setup for decades now. It's not being a neo-luddite, it's praticing a time tested tactic. cyber.gif
bait
QUOTE
all that sentence says is that if someone without a sim module


So your saying that the Street Sam archetype can't use his smartgun link as he doesn't have either a datajack or sim module?
Ravor
Well for starters the Street Sammy has a sim module, so the only piece of equipment that he actually lacks in order to be able to make full use of his smartlink is either a datajack or trodenet.

Secondly, with his equipment setup he can still use his smartlink for the targeting bonus and information feed, the only thing that he can't do is issue mental commands to his weapon. I suppose that if he was willing to deal with whatever distraction modifiers the DM would levy against him he could use his AR gloves and a virtual keyboard/mouse to issue remote commands to his weapon.

And lastly, one of the reasons that I try not to bring up the sample characters in my arguments is that they are quite frankly very poorly built and not fully thought out. Also it's possible that this is simply a case where whoever built the sample Street Sammy didn't remember the changes that smartlinks went through between Third Edition and Fourth Edition.
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