There are multiple threads about specific ammo but you know... im kinda pissed about all ammo overall. You would think that after almost 3/4 of a century they would be able to make ammo that is smaller and lighter than the ammo of today and not have guns like a Ruger Super warhawk that only has 6 shots!!

I mean pistols should have like 50 or 100 and anything capable of burst fire should have 250-500 rounds, and heavy machineguns like limitless ammo.

Besides that, laser weapons are kind of real now. I mean they are using them to shoot down missles and stuff. How much longer before laser weaponry enters shadowrun.

Considering those technoligies exist today in prototypes the size of a dinner table and that they must be mounted on large vehicles, I dont think they'd be able to make them cheap enough for people to buy and then actually physically carry.

SR3 had lasers in cannon companion. I am sure Arsenal will have them too.

They are mounting anti missle lasers to fighter jets to so they cant be that big. Besides what do the limitations of todays tech have to do with tech of the future?

Fighter jets also have the ability to carry bombs that weigh several tons, I dont think saying "A fighter Jet can carry it, it must be light as a feather!" is a good argument.

Edit: Also, we can make lighter and smaller ammo. But it wont be as effective as what a Warhawk can throw.

SR is only seventy years in the future. it took hundreds of years and a lot of false starts to 'perfect' gunpowder weapons to the point where muscle-powered weaponry could be considered obsolete.

if bullets are going to get smaller, they're going to have to get a) a lot faster, and b) a lot better at spreading damage through flesh. a really small, really fast bullet is just going to poke a really small hole through your body unless it has some kind of really, really crazy expansion effect. bullets today can often poke a hole in you without any serious damage (ie, you are able to keep fighting and survive long enough to get medical attention). smaller bullets are going to have even less effect.

in order to do what you're talking about, you're basically going to need either an energy weapon (battery-powered, with as many shots as you feel comfortable handwaving) or handheld railguns firing frangible ammunition (eg, glass beads) at the speed of a slow meteor.

Agreed. However, .22's are small enough that if they hit your head, they'll bounce around inside your braincase and turn it into yummy, yummy scrambled eggs.

you can change the game however you see fit. If believe that guns should have lot more capacity, or even infinite bullets, go for it.

In a physics sense, Smaller and lighter bullets tends to not be as effective as larger heavier bullets for the purpose of incapacitating/killing people. If anything, they would probably be using larger more massive bullets in the future, with needing to stop larger metas and armor being as cheap to buy.

I'll second that Lasers will likely be added in arsenal.

It may be a myth, but we're involving TROLLS AND ORKS here. I think a few myths can slide.

it's not a myth, exactly--a small round can bounce off bone and ricochet around inside you to do a lot of damage. but the chance of it happening is really, really small.

I met a guy once who was shot in the face point blank three times with a .22 and you could barely see any scars. He was fine. Don't know what that really adds to the conversation....

Im sticking with the fantasy version of shadowrun, the one with magic and crazy futuristic technology. Futuristic ammo should be smaller, lighter, and be created in such a way as they do even more damage than ammo of today.

Hell they dont even need to be a slug, gun powder, and a casing. What if just getting pricked by a ultra tiny bullet laced with some acidic compound or bio agent totally messed you up. Yeah suffering damage from something punching through your skin/organs is for newbs!!!!

It certainly backs up the point that smaller ammo != futuristic.

You should check out the supersquirt and neurostun....that stuff is crazy...

mfb has a perfect point,

Smaller bullets have to go a lot faster to deal the same amount of damage.

Fact is bullets haven't gotten smaller in the past 200 years. Why should that change in 2070?
What usually determines if a bullet exits the body is if its hollow point or full metal jacket.

Full metal is better at body armor but tends to go in and out. So if you miss anything vital you won't the guy.
(full metal jacket is illegal in many areas for that vary reason

The second is hollow point which expands and fragments on impact. This is the standard type of ammo used by police. As they don't want there gunfire exiting the suspect and hitting someone else.

As for laser weapons, you'll notice the lasers are being used to shoot down missiles and not anything else. I believe the reason is a laser is not as effective at killing a person or an armored vehicle then a conventional weapon.

But as a laser travels at the speed of light its perfect for shooting down missiles. And really once you hit an armed explosive it shouldn't be to hard to set it off.

"I believe the reason is a laser is not as effective at killing a person or an armored vehicle then a conventional weapon."

Have you never watched star wars or the bazillion other movies with laser weaponry? OR PLAYED BATTLETECH!!!

"If you want freaking star wars weaponry why dont you go play star wars retard"

Because I like shadowrun. And I do play battletech hehe.

look, man, no offense, but like you said, if you want to play Star Wars or BattleTech, play those games (hell, i do, on occasion). in SR, firearm technology has not advanced significantly. that's simply how the game has been designed. not to say that big advances can't be imagined into the game world, and if you want to double or triple the ammo cap for all firearms in your game, go for it. but sticking with standard firearm technology for a non-distant-future game is a viable choice.

It's a lot cheaper, easier, and more effective to use bullets and a large gun than it is to use a halfassed battery-powered gun that needed a daily recharging after a few shots.

Actually, those combat lasers send out a short pulse, then repower - and feature normal firing speeds.

Granted, the heavy laser still sucks, as you carry a huge backpack for power, and the light laser pistol sucks as it is barely more powerful than a handgun, even though the energy cells are clip-sized. But the medium laser rifle is actually pretty good, featuring an ok damage, equipement belt type power cells and a decent range.

The only reason to bring out those expensive guns is to hunt spirits, though...

Can't you do that with other, cheaper weaponry?

You can try and die.

Laser weapons reduce the spirits protection by half.

Where does it say that in SR 4th edition?

MOAR ACRONYMNS!

Seriously though, what are these wordses?

An ice bullet could work if you lived in 2070, and not in a mythbuster's episode.

Thanks, Kyoto, that clears up a lot.

Firearms technology in Shadowrun has advanced, significantly (default ammunition is still caseless in SR4, isn't it? I think?). Just not to that ridiculous level. There are quite a few heavy pistols that have pretty absurdly high ammunition capacities, given their damage code and concealability.

The reason the Super Warhawk, in particular, is still listed as a "6" is that it's a revolver. Six shots are something of a tradition amongst wheelgun enthusiasts, and it's also a convenient size (for the "wheel" part, the cylinder), etc. Someone could make a twelve-shot .44 or something, today, but the cylinder would need to be bigger, the gun would be unwieldy, and that sort of thing. It's got less to do with the size of the bullets than with the simple physical demands imposed by the unique design of a cylindrically loading weapon.

It's not like you jam a magazine into a revolver, and can fit twice as many rounds into that magazine in 2070 as you can today (or even as if you can add an extended magazine, like the 30+ round GLOCK ones available today) -- it's a revolver, they come built in with a certain capacity, period.

Revolvers are much more stylish and say something about a person.


What it says is that you don't want to mess with them.

First off, aircraft borne laser weapons aren't yet in service, although there are plans for them to be in service by 2015 (and we all know what military equipment depoloyment timetables are like). Even then, their rate of fire completely sucks for ground warfare - 2 shots in 10 seconds followed by a minimum 30 second cool down; no use to a soldier on the ground.

Now even assuming they've cleared that up by 2070, there's the small issue of where the reflection goes, a powerful enough laser to kill a person from a kilometer away has the potential to also blind everyone else within a hundred meters or more. That's bad PR, and costs a lot of money in special goggles to protect all your employees.

There's the issue of smoke and dirt, lasers suck in such conditions, and that's reflected in the rules, they loose power in smokey conditions; and no doubt if you got dirt on the lens that would certainly not help matters either. There's a lot of smoke and dirt on battlefields.

That ties in with the final; maintainance issue. The AK47 has been used, and continues to be used in massive numbers after 60 years because it's simple design makes it useable and maintainable by anyone. Those things can be left to go rusty and still shoot straight enough to be dangerous. Frontline soldiers need weapons that are easy to maintain and aren't going to srew up after being dropped in a pool of mud, lasers don't strike me as 'that weapon'.

But, if you want to hand out MP III lasers to all and sundrie, that's fine, it's your game.

Thank you very much for inserting logic and intelligence into a statement that was designed to raise a smile.

You are a God among men.

You're welcome, and I know. Thanks.