I've had players ask about this in the past and I've never really given it a really good going over. So I was wondering how you other GMs handle it in your game.

Moral issues aside I'm really more interested in the practical aspects of it.

1) How long will a dead body keep before the organs, the stuff you get nuyen for, go bad?

2) How much do you get for fencing cyberware or bioware?

3) Any other bodily things that you can or do sell? I.e. blood, semen, hair, whatever.

Any info would be helpful. Thanks in advance.

1. On page 142 of MitS there is the organlegger's spell called Preserve.

1) Ischemia doesn't usually start killing off organs, IIRC, until 3-4 hours in (with a few notable exceptions, like the heart and brain). We generally go with the guideline that if the body is on ice within an hour and transferred to specialists within twelve, it's probably ok.

2) As per the fencing rules in SR3.

3) Not unless you want to define them and their prices. Organs and 'ware already have defined costs you can use.

They really should have put out an organlegger sourcebook.

~J

I imagine that Petrify if a better organlegger's spell than preserve is, because killing the people severely limits the potential uses for them.

I have transplanted the term Ripperdoc from CP2020 as it sounds so nice along with organlegging.
My PC's killed an exstraction runner team who came after their principle. It was a big pay day in the cyber and functioning body parts, thankfully the PC's where on their way to medical help so someone else got the score.

It brings a whole new level of headache when your team will not only sell the gear but also the body. Thankfully the opportunity is rare as most teams do not have the equipment to hand, also as time is of the essense getting a accurate appraisal of what is still functional is hard.
Its often a standard price per body as time is against the seller.

The trouble with dealing with organ leggers is that eventually they might realize that you have what they need.

Link brings up a good point here.

I think you can great around that by employing a hit location system in combat. You make up a standard by how much damage you take in that area of how much the ware is still usuable

Light: 5 - 20% reduced
Moderate: 21 - 50%
Serious: 51 - 75%
Deadly: 76 - 100%

Of course it depends if the ware in question is system wide like Wired Reflexes or one area like a cyberlimb.

Another thing to consider is that if the person in question has some custom stuff like Beta or Delta then it would be almost impossible to resell since those mods are made for specific people.

As so long as they don't consider you a loose end.

Which is flawed logic IMO. What do they think you're going to do, go up to the next LS patrol you see and tell them you sold some guy in *insert seedy location here* some guy you murdered's organs? "No officer's we weren't going to just dump him somewhere we were going to sell him to organleggers..." Now you're not only a murderer but a sicko as well. Even trying to plea bargain won't work, because you just admitted to more crimes.

Eh, just my take on things.

Yeah. Just so long as you don't come to them saying the Star is closing in on you and they gotta help you vanish, I can't see a reason why a rational organlegger would try to take a supplier.

~J

Sure they would. Hell, an Operating Theater for a full organ recovery takes less time to set up than it does to actually recover the organs today. It literally takes 40 minutes from cross-clamp to stitching up now, less if you don't do lungs (they take a bit of time).

Tissue's a bit different, but again, if you're not worring about disposing of the body, it's about 7 or so minutes to debone a human body.

"They would…" what? The only thing I can see that referring to is that you're advocating the idea that Organleggers would harvest their suppliers, which I don't really see the rest of your post making any argument for—sure it's quick, but what about all of the other details, including having one less supplier?

~J

Meaning, by the time the runner team got to a Star patrol, and the Star got back to the place where the Runners dropped off the body (not necessarly the place where the recovery was going to take place), Tanamous is probably not going to be there when/if the Star shows up.

I don't think they would harvest their suppilers. Why would they? Cloned organs are already available to those with means. Tanamous supplies the people that can't afford such things, but can afford 'pre-owned' organs. That supply doesn't exist without people willing to supply those warm-ish bodies.

A supply that would quickly dry up without willing partners/sellers. And you can bet if the organ-leggers are killing off runners, someone would hear about it. And stop dealing with them. Which is why they don't do it.

Then I agree with you, but I still don't see what that initial part of your last post refers to.

~J

Mainly timing and location. Sorry for the confusion.

Finding them's the hard part. Dealing with them? Not so hard.

Something to keep in mind about cyberware is that not all of it is something that you can rip out and put into somebody else, and the installation is where the real cost arises from. Someone's wired relexes were probably put in by nanotech or bio-designed microorganisms - it's not actual "wires" that you can pull out and thread into someone else. Even muscle replacement will consist of theads woven into existing muscle fiber. I could see things like cybereyes or suchlike being "resold", but most cyberware would get the runners far, far less than "book" value.

Of course, organlegging presupposes either kidnapping live victims (and keeping them subdued while tranporting them undetected - which would include finding a way to deal with DocWagon bracelets and internal tracking devices), or taking down victims in a way that does no damage to the bits of them that you want to sell. Then, you need the appropriate biotech skill (since this would presumably be out of the range of a medkit's funtioning) and tools, as well as either a handy cold container or a mage with a preserve spell (who doesn't mind putting his astral signature on something carved out of a corpse).

While the reactions of others to organlegging might be hypocritical, they will still have those reactions. Murderers still beat up pedophiles in prison. So even in the criminal world, there are still unwritten rules about appropriate behavior. That's not to say that the runners should get vindictively screwed over by the GM. But if word of their activities gets out, it should affect how the other denizens of the shadows feel about them, and deal with them. Some of their contacts might act cooler towards them, security forces might be a bit more vindictive, they might get approached for nastier jobs (such as wetwork) more often, and so on.

Agree with Glyph

The problem isn't just in finding Organ Leggers but convincing them that you, an independent contractor, are worthy of their trust. The whole loose lips sink ships. You might not intend to talk to Lone Star but instead start flapping you tongue in some local bar. A bartender or patron calls Lone Star. Lone Star goes to the bar. Now Lone Star is having a persuasive talk with you. It might even be someone you considered your friend at a party who rats you out. If a Johnson doesn't find you trustworthy you just tend not to get a job. If a Organ Legger doesn't find you trust worthy you tend to end up dead.

The Mob has in the past taken people, who are good at keeping secrets, that are looking to join the Mob, given them a job and then made them disappear afterwards to cover their tracks. I can't see why Organ-Leggers wouldn't do the same.

How is anyone to really know if someone is an organ-legger supplier or not? The ones doing it can't ever talk about it. So if an established one disappears how will that reflect badly upon their previous employers. Especially if such persons are attempting to live below the radar as Shadow-runners tend to do.

There might be good reasons why hardened criminals hate and cringe at the mention of Organ-Leggers.



As a side note businesses can change their suppliers for a variety of reasons; better product, better delivery schedule, a valued costumer says so, less expensive; or they are a pain to deal with. So what happens to ex Organ-Legger suppliers?

Ah for the good old days and the Transform to Goo spell. Making the harvesting of cyberware easy, and the target a lot less frisky after you revert him to normal.

I agree that Organlegging would be considered a nasty part of the underworld, but it would be lucrative and that would draw people to it. To me it’s not the same as pedophilia or child abuse.

As far as an Organlegger screwing you over I'd say you'd have about the same chance as any contact screwing you over who is from the criminal side of things.

And as far as finding one well that's why you have fixers. The Three best contacts in the game are Fixer, Arms Dealer, Organlegger. If you've got those then you're good to go.

Mostly I would use the Organlegger to get rid of corpses, especially if we can take them along with us and if they have ware in them. I've never played or GM'd a game where characters went and looked for people specifically for that purpose, but it only takes one.

I would see this as a big business. There is a ghoul nation in Africa that needs flesh. Of course it also needs an ICBM, but that's an IC post.

someone mentioned kidnapping and the problem of disabling the doc wagon monitors. as long as the person isn't reported missing and isn't injured, Doc Wagon wouldn't fit into it, but a mock Doc wagon truck might stop people from reporting it "I saw her collapse but doc wagon got her so I figured someone called it in"

I figured it was something like that. Man those are pretty good prices. Not if you're poor or uninsured, but still not too bad considering. Thanks FT.

So basically you would have Organlegging mostly for selling cyberware, ghoul food, or to people who can't afford or can't go through the legal route. Even then it seems like you're better off going the clonal path through the black market.

That's 1.5x the yearly salary of a senior Lone Star officer, and the cost of six months of Middle lifestyle.

~J

well, i still thiink ghoulfood would pay well, being their primary food supply an all

I think ghoul food is where most of the money in organlegging comes from. The hardest part of getting around Docwagon is the ritual sample. Of course if they get chopped up quick enough it doesn't really matter.

ofcourse, with cloning, you even wonder if its worth it for them, like, a rx program for them

Purchasing clonal tissue for Ghoul Food as Platinum Doc Wagon Contracts then would cost about 180 per kilogram - or roughly 140 per Ghoul per week. Plus for every 6.9 Ghouls in the program some troll gets a Platinum Docwagon contract.

It's really quite affordable.

-Frank

Keep in mind, there are times when you can't access your clone. If a run went particularly bad, and your (fake or real) SIN is suddenly the subject of much scrutiny, then your DocWagon contract and associated clone may be unavailable. Even if you didn't get caught, the corp in question might be curious how many DocWagon clients needed a cubic meter of skin and a limb or two from their clones right after their security cameras recorded you catching the wrong end of a fire elemental.

Also, those organs who are 'generic' with the mere 1% rejection rate.. those are probably expensive for the average Street Doc, but a whole bushelfull of livers that 'fell off the back of a truck' would have enough variation that, with the right meds, you could have a similar (say 5%) rejection rate. Plus if you think about the effort and labor and materials needed to clone a body or body parts, it's probably much cheaper to pay for bootleg organs and a good freezer.

And think of it this way, while you might not make a whole lot selling corpses for organlegging, you'd probably get a decent amount per, especially if the bloodtype was a rarer one. Plus organized crime would love the idea that if someone screws up that badly, you can always get beer money selling their corpse to the 'leggers.

As for ghoulchow™, there's only so much in valuable organs in a given body. I doubt there's a lot of demand for the muscles, and who needs all thirty feet of intestine, really? I'd expect the lion's share of the organlegged body going in the grinder for the ghouls.

Heh, a though just struck me about organized crime.. you could have a decrepit mafia Don, pushing 90 or more, and kept alive by the harvested organs of the minions that failed him. He would be surprisingly spry for a 90 year old, and everyone would know that while he'd be upset if you failed him more than once, he would hope that, in the end, you'd never fail him completely (since that means even your transplanted organ wasn't worth the surgery costs to implant it!) No one wants to disappoint Don Or. Ending up on his wrong side means ending up in his insides.

Like I said above, Frank misrepresents the economics pretty significantly. Take a Lone Star officer: if they lose an arm off-the-job, that's more than their yearly salary for a cloned replacement. Extrapolating from the cost for Used Cyberware, an arm from the Organlegger is a mere ¥12,500, leaving a senior officer with only ¥4,500 in debt for the next year if they maintain a Low lifestyle. As for DocWagon, a Platinum contract costs ¥50,000, or two and a half times the total salary cap for a Lone Star officer, so that isn't an effective way to get the treatment either.

For a beat cop, the only options are to see the Tamanous or find some way to arrange to get shot up on the job (they're covered while on duty by the equivalent of a Platinum contract, but not off-duty).

~J

Is it in the new write-up that they get the Platinum? I'm actually reading through the Lone Star sourcebook as we type and they only get Basic. It goes into detail on how a downed shadowrunner sometimes gets picked up before LS and that LS is upset that their officers have to wait in the emergancy room while upscale criminals get private recovery rooms and better care.

EDIT- As an aside a poster In LS used the word microminiaturized. The poster is Boxpusher on pg 52 and I'm upset because they stole my word.

I don't remember where my info is from--I'll have to check when I get back from work. Either way, the point that they can't even begin to afford one off-duty stands.

~J

I tend to support Kagetenshi and Lazarus's positions on this one. There's generally three types of people in shadowrun: the corporate/underworld players, the SINless masses and the wageslaves. Only the first group is going to even have the option of taking the best care available in many cases. Remember, many of the legitimately employed people in shadowrun don't get paid in no strings attached nuyen. They get corp housing, corp medical care and corp bank accounts to spend on corp entertainment. If they need something they haven't somehow budgeted for, then they're probably stuck taking whatever the corp bloody well wants to give them. If they want to go any other route, than they have to risk getting scalped by some shady types, because first off they're stuck selling off goods just to scrape up the cred to deal with someone who will give them a choice in the matter. And all this is assuming that the corps aren't buying up some of these "lightly used" organs (Tamanous, much like shadowrunners, could be a useful way to avoid getting their hands dirty) and using them to patch up useful employees themselves. Cost effective is cost effective, after all. Gotta maintain those always low prices somehow.

The secondhand market for organs is there, but it's not particularly cost effective. In 2053, the organ legged lung cost 6,000 and carried a ~40% chance of rejection.

Worse, as Ghoul Chow went, the second hand market was pretty crap. Your best bet is grabbing a metahuman leg - which costs 10,000 and is about 15% of the body mass of the guy it was taken from. That's about 245 per kilogram for the deliciously underpriced troll limbs, still a worse deal than simply getting whole bodies for 50,000 out of Doc Wagon Platinum.

Sure, scraps from leftovers of operations would probably be sold to ghouls - it beats having to pay for them to be disposed of as hazardous waste. But I can't imagine many ghouls would be willing to pay more than 100 a kilogram for street meat when the pure quality controlled legal stuff costs only 180 (and comes with a free Platinum Docwagon Contract! That's not trivial to this equation).

Indeed, if you figure that the Platinum contract minus the cadaver is worth about as much as Gold Contract, we come to the figure that whole body clones are only worth about 25,000 a pop (if you let them grow over 3 months rather than splurging on the force growth procedures). Maybe less. With the right kinds of inputs, you're looking at prices of about 100 or less - no more expensive than any other kind of meat in Shadowrun.

-Frank

These are all good points, but there's something you're overlooking--if clones can be used as ghoul chow, then why did Dunkie's will have a reward for whoever produced viable ghoul chow?

IIRC in one of the books, it says that it was hypothesized, after many failures, that it was something about the metaphysical aura of the real deal. Personally, I think it's linked to Essence--as the other HMHVV variants are required to drain Essence, ghouls can only eat flesh that once actually had essence or something along those lines.

In reading your post, I do not see anything actually refuting the will award for ghoul food - just your opinion. However, you allude to other bequests in the will for things that already exist. Could you point them out? It would strengthen your opinion of the will having no bearing on cloned bodies for ghoul chow.

It really all depends on what you think "rupturing the band means" that's one of the two main ways to get a Docwagon response. Is a rupture a complete tearoff or just a small nick? The either being the built in phone. It's probably fairly easy to jam in all honesty, going to look it up to make sure. What company is going to give high levels of ECM/ECCM to all those people?