Full Version: Spirit Volume
So, I'm wondering what is the minimum (and maximum) volume that a materialized spirit of a certain force can occupy. I ask this question because there are many potential uses for a very small but very powerful spirit, including the one referred to in the topic description. A bound Task spirit could, for example, live inside an automobile engine and repair it on the fly if it could materialize within the tiny space.
you are a monster.
There was very nearly going to be a statement of this in Street Magic, but it was felt that a lot of people wouldn't understand what "30 liters" meant. But yeah, your spirit is at least 10 liters per force. And no more than 60 liters per force.
An average human, for comparison, is 70 liters.
-Frank
An average human, for comparison, is 70 liters.
-Frank
Well, that's just depressing. But, I suppose that we could create a pillowpants using a Possession (or Inhabitation) spirit and a small troll-shaped homunculus.
| QUOTE (FrankTrollman) |
| There was very nearly going to be a statement of this in Street Magic, but it was felt that a lot of people wouldn't understand what "30 liters" meant. |
That's why we have SI units: dm³.
10 liters still makes Pillowpants a possibility, with some girls.
| QUOTE (Critias @ Jul 4 2007, 05:23 AM) |
| 10 liters still makes Pillowpants a possibility, with some girls. |
What women are you dating!? Where are these girls that have 2.64 gallon capacity vaginas?
Now, I've see some videos made by one Denni O and friends but, while truly prodigious in size, those do not come anywhere near to 10 liters and they're giant insertion professionals.
yeah, thats 2 1/2 milk jugs. thats bigger than most babies.
Wow, it's almost like I was making a joke or something, huh?
Hmmm.
So does this preclude giving your ally a housefly form for materialized sneaking?
So does this preclude giving your ally a housefly form for materialized sneaking?
No, it doesn't.
It just would be quite a large housefly... and isn't a really good idea otherwise, either.
It just would be quite a large housefly... and isn't a really good idea otherwise, either.
| QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig) |
| No, it doesn't. It just would be quite a large housefly... and isn't a really good idea otherwise, either. |
Yeah, does Immunity to Normal Weapons work against fly swatters? Afterall, it's not a normal weapon...
Sure - but when people see large Insects buzzing around, they tend get a tad nervous...
I'm still trying to figure out how an ally spirit can materialize into a working motorcycle, a la 'Burning Time'.
Artistic Licence.
Though with the example of the ally spirit materializing into a toaster and being even able to copy the function of toasting bread, the writers seem to have maken the motorcycle-materialization-spirit more valid... Which I rather see as a bad thing... 
| QUOTE (FrankTrollman) |
| There was very nearly going to be a statement of this in Street Magic, but it was felt that a lot of people wouldn't understand what "30 liters" meant. But yeah, your spirit is at least 10 liters per force. And no more than 60 liters per force. An average human, for comparison, is 70 liters. -Frank |
I've actually stumbled upon a handy website for this sort of thing.
Convert-Me.com
Incredibly handy (particularly when I come accross documents where the author forgot to include the units on some measurement. /scowl.
| QUOTE (FrankTrollman) |
| But yeah, your spirit is at least 10 liters per force. And no more than 60 liters per force. |
Source?
| QUOTE (Wasabi) | ||
Source? |
he's a freelancer who did a lot of the work on street magic. he *is* the source, so to speak =P
(that doesn't make the information official, it just gives you an idea of what they were thinking, and helps you keep things straight) =P
on a side note, this kinda/sorta (but not really) makes possession allies not quite so bad with the nerfbat beating they received... sorta... but not really...
| QUOTE (Jaid) |
| he's a freelancer who did a lot of the work on street magic. he *is* the source, so to speak =P (that doesn't make the information official, it just gives you an idea of what they were thinking, and helps you keep things straight) =P on a side note, this kinda/sorta (but not really) makes possession allies not quite so bad with the nerfbat beating they received... sorta... but not really... |
It doesnt give you an idea of what "they" were thinking. It gives you an idea of what "he" was thinking. Frank's ideas about Shadowrun often differ significantly from what the developers ideas are, and what cannon is. It drives me up the wall that he constantly misrepresents his house rules and biases as actual rules and factual setting information.
frank has always been quite clear on the source for his information. he doesn't ever say "this is official", he much more often says "here's some things that were considered, here's why it was considered, and here's why it didn't make it in".
in fact, i have never seen frank claim any of his houserules to be official, or even to imply that any of his houserules were official.
perhaps you should try not making up what frank says, and you'll find it to be more reasonable.
in fact, i have never seen frank claim any of his houserules to be official, or even to imply that any of his houserules were official.
perhaps you should try not making up what frank says, and you'll find it to be more reasonable.
I have to agree with Jaid on this. I have never seen Frank misrepresent his house rules as official. He always takes pains to be quite specific.
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| I have to agree with Jaid on this. I have never seen Frank misrepresent his house rules as official. He always takes pains to be quite specific. |
Thank you. I do try to keep a solid line between my personal play style, my opinions, and the opinions of Catalyst Game Labs.
In the case of spirit volume, it was on the table to give a solid size range for materialized spirits of 10-60 liters per Force point. This was bounced on the grounds that discussions of liters for human shaped objects was confusing to a sizable portion of people.
And there's a certain amount of truth to that. A 70 liter object that is shaped like a man stands about 170 cm tall - a perfectly respectable height all told. But a cube of 70 liters is only 41 cm on a side - it's something that a dwarf could seriously sit on. The sheer lack of volume that compact shapes like spheres and cubes actually have is quite non-intuitive for a lot of people.
So that's the reason that "spirit volume" didn't get a side bar in Street Magic. There was a write up of it with that seemingly simple guideline and it was cut because it seemed to confuse as many people as it enlightened. But if you were going to have such a guideline, that is what it would have been.
-Frank
You definitely do not want Pillowpants in Shadowrun. Not only would it be terrible for everybody's sex lives, it would totally remodel the tactical side of the game if a force 5 earth spirit could be four inches tall. It could hide in a desk drawer. It would get huge pluses for stealth, as if the ability to switch in and out of the astral wasn't stealthy enough, and a strong argument could be made that it's size should impose penalties on attempts to attack it.
| QUOTE (Zen Shooter01) |
| it would totally remodel the tactical side of the game if a force 5 earth spirit could be four inches tall. It could hide in a desk drawer. It would get huge pluses for stealth, as if the ability to switch in and out of the astral wasn't stealthy enough, and a strong argument could be made that it's size should impose penalties on attempts to attack it. |
Possibly, it also might grant large bonuses in melee for opponents, due to lacking any reach.
I generally assume that spirits are human-sized, unless they have reach. If they have natural reach they are troll-sized or larger. I might consider allowing someone to summon small spirits, but giving appropriate penalties to stats (physical, move rate, combat, and mental) for the privilege.
Remember: If they're small on the physical plane then they're small on the astral plane, and mental stats are the physical stats of the astral plane. I might give them a bit more reaction or agility, that's their bonus to stealth right there, but it wouldn't be a good trade-off rate.
I've always considerd force 1-3 spirits to be small and 4-6 to be medium, basically every 3 points or so to roughly double their size. Think of them as D&D- style size categories. Sounds like I wasn't too far off.
Size in astral form is mostly irrelevant. Size in physical, materialized form should matter to some degree, but should be variable. I imagine a force 6 air spirit to shift slightly in size depending on what it's doing- as it expands and contracts. A spirit using fear might seem to grow, or it might expand to engulf a troll.
If for some reason, a mage needs a spirit bigger than its force would seem to imply, you might improvise by bumping down one if its other stats, or simply using an optional power for increasing its size.
Dread Polack
Size in astral form is mostly irrelevant. Size in physical, materialized form should matter to some degree, but should be variable. I imagine a force 6 air spirit to shift slightly in size depending on what it's doing- as it expands and contracts. A spirit using fear might seem to grow, or it might expand to engulf a troll.
If for some reason, a mage needs a spirit bigger than its force would seem to imply, you might improvise by bumping down one if its other stats, or simply using an optional power for increasing its size.
Dread Polack
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