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Jaid
QUOTE (Tarantula)
I'd still argue that since fading takes no action (much like blinking) I'd be able to thread the armor before the IC attacked.

threading is not anything like blinking. blinking isn't even something you have to think about.

whether or not threading takes up any kind of action, it's pretty clear you're making a conscious decision to do it. i would never allow someone to react to a surprise attack with any sort of action, whether or not it's a game-mechanic action or not (for example, you can forget about closing your eyes when someone hits you with a flashpack, even though closing your eyes is not going to be any kind of action at all). in order to get the kind of result you want, you need to have the defense up all the time, so that it is automatic.
Tarantula
Why would the IC be a surprise attack? Unless I never noticed the IC in the first place, (and most IC/systems don't have the room to run a stealth program).
Jaid
QUOTE (Tarantula)
Why would the IC be a surprise attack? Unless I never noticed the IC in the first place, (and most IC/systems don't have the room to run a stealth program).

rating 4 IC can run armor, attack(or black hammer or blackout), stealth, and analyse. and if the IC where you're going is rating 3 or lower, you don't need to worry about the difference between stealth 10 and stealth 12, or at the very least you'll be better off lowering your resonance and buying 2 points of edge (and having 5 BPs to spare) and using the edge for that 1 occasion where it does matter, and meanwhile having edge to make you more useful in all situations, rather than just at not being seen in the matrix.
Ravor
Sure, but remember that your fully loaded ( Rating 4 ) IC counts as 5 programs against system.
Jaid
sure, but that's not terribly important because the FAQ tells us that response drop only changes your matrix initiative. it doesn't lower system, which means that it doesn't lower other program ratings. we can actually run this on a rating 4 node, if we don't mind it running slightly slower.
Ravor
Hmm, interesting.

Yet another reason to ignore the FAQ. cyber.gif
Ryu
Patrolling IC will be hosted on its spawning node, so only the agent itself is relevant.

It will indeed deliver an surprise attack. Its presence is of course known, but the attack will come without warning.

Threading should by all means be a complex action, as compiling a sprite is. There is no type of action mentioned, but you are still not allowed to act while the IC is. And the attack happens when the GM tells you "the IC does attack. Surprise test". IF you manage to beat the IC on INIT you may act first, but thats unlikely considering your weak matrix persona (comlink step 3+).

Regarding fading, reconsider your approach of threading necessary CFs. You can safely stand a mere 3 points of fading, fading to level 12 means 6 boxes of physical drain, and first aid has a threshold of 2 (If you even manage to get that much successes).
Tarantula
First. You have your rating 4 "spawn" node running your IC. Your IC is rating 4, and has the armor, attack/blackout/blackhammer, stealth, analyze. Total is 5 programs. This lowers your response to 3. Since system is limited by response, and programs are limited by system, your programs get limited to 3 as well. However, as long as you're going with that, you could run up to 3 more programs (total of 7) without getting any worse. (As the true system rating is 4, and every multiple of 4 programs you run would reduce response further). So you might as well give it attack and blackout, as well as medic and track. Then its more like a real IC, but don't forget, its response is still 3, and its ratings are all 3. So, while it has quite a few programs to play with, it probably won't even detect me with its 6 dice to my 12.

Should be, and by RAW are different. Threading takes no action by RAW. Let me take this a different way. If I'm talking to some street kid, expecting him to punch me, and then he punches me, would you rule that it was a "surprise" attack? I doubt it. Thats the same with the IC. I sit there, and keep an eye on it, expecting it will attack me soon. It shouldn't be a surprise test.

To get some more RAW on my side, i'll quote pg 155 on surprise and perception, "Surprised characters are normally unaware that a situation
that they need to react to is forthcoming. This normally occurs because they either failed to perceive something (they didn’t get enough hits to notice the concealed sniper) or because the gamemaster decides that they didn’t even have a chance to perceive it (they blithely walk into a room they expect to be empty, but it’s in fact filled with relaxing guards)."
Assuming your IC is hiding with its effective stealth 3, it gets 7 dice (4 firewall + 3 stealth) to oppose my 11(2 computer + 5 analyze + 2 techno perception bonus + 2 hot sim). Assuming I notice it, my question would be, what type is it. If its IC, I'd assume it has at least attack, if not armor, and analyze. And since I had to analyze it to see it, it's got stealth too. Now, if its trying to analyze me, I get my 18 (4 hacking + 12 stealth + 2 hotsim) versus its 6 (3 rating, + 3 analyze). Again, assuming we're talking about the IC as above. I have 3x its dice, chances are, it never sees me.

And as to the fading. I can thread up to 6 for stun damage, not physical. If I do thread that high, I'll probably take 3 stun damage. Next, machine sprites with diagnostics are great things. A rating 6 sprite diagnosticing the medkit will likely get 2 hits. I defaulting on first aid get logic -1 for another 2 dice. 10 dice chances are I'll get 3 hits, reducing my stun from 3 down to 2. For no penalty. Oh, and for using the medkit without a penalty, thats what slap patches are for.
Jaid
QUOTE (SR4 FAQ (http://shadowrunrpg.com/resources/faq.shtml)[/quote)

Does a reduction in Response from running more programs then the System rating also result in a reduction in System? What happens if Response is reduced to 0?

No, otherwise it's a cascading reduction (lower System lowers the amount of programs, which lowers your Response again, and so on). The overload from running too many programs only affects your Response.

If Response reaches 0, your system is overloaded, and slows to a snail's crawl. Think Windows 98.


like i said, the IC is still rating 4, it's programs are still rating 4. but hey, since you're feeling so generous, we can give it some extra programs anyways... why not add in trace and medic to it's payload?
Tarantula
The way I always read it was this. You have your node, rating 4 across the board. You load your rating 4 ic, and your armor, attack and analyze programs. Fine. You load stealth. Response becomes 4(3) and System becomes 4(3). Now all your programs are 4(3) as well. System is still actually 4, but it is limited by the response which was limited by the number of programs, which are in turn limited by the new lower system. You could still tack on up to 7 programs and run them all at 3. Up to 11 at 2, and up to 15 at 1. (Because the system is still 4, just its modified rating drops).

To me, the faq says that there really isn't any penalty to running too many programs unless you go down to 0.
Jaid
an initiative penalty can be a bad thing. especially if you handle surprise the same in the matrix as you do in the meatworld.

it's just that sometimes the initiative penalty is worth the price.
Tarantula
I just don't see how lowered response can't affect the system. It says so in the RAW. The FAQ contradicts it. I just don't see it saying that the new lowered system counts for the reduction of programs. Either way, to revise my examples... You're looking at the IC's 8 dice for stealth (rating + stealth) vs my 11 for analyze (2 computer + 5 analyze + 2 techno + 2 hotsim). For it to spot me, I have 18 (4 hacking + 12 stealth + 2 hotsim) vs its 8 (4 rating + 4 analyze). Still, not a good proposition that it'll spot me, and a good one that I'll see it.

You haven't addressed why your IC attack would be a surprise attack, unless I failed to analyze it. (And, if I fail to analyze an icon in a node, I'll assume it'll attack me, since if its high enough to avoid my analyzing, then why wouldn't it be a hacker/IC?)
Jaid
so as soon as you walk into a node, you just sit there and start analyzing *everything*?

because *everything* has an icon. you step into a data storage node with 1.5 million files in it, and one of them is IC. you gonna scan every last icon to check if it evaded your generalised scan of the node? you're gonna be there a long, long time.

we're talking about a program that doesn't have to look like anything, it just takes the same form as what the programmer tells it to look for. if they want it to look like a fly on the wall, it looks like a fly, if they want it to look like a chair, it looks like a chair, if they want it to look like the floor, it looks like the floor.

seriously, there is no way you could possibly scan *every* icon in a node. there isn't enough time available to you.
Tarantula
Yes, yes I can.
QUOTE (SR4 @ pg 217)
When you are accessing a node, you may set your Analyze program to automatically scan and detect other users/icons on
that node with a Simple Action.
Jaid
sure. and that gets you one global attempt. you're saying you're just going to scan every individual item one at a time, just to make sure. not happening.
Tarantula
Ok, to put up the rest of the quote, since you insist its only one test:
QUOTE (SR4 @ pg 217)
When you are accessing a node, you may set your Analyze program to automatically scan and detect other users/icons on that node with a Simple Action.The program will maintain that task for as long as you are on that node or until you kill that process. The gamemaster secretly conducts Matrix Perception Tests to determine if you detect other icons accessing the system.

Emphasis mine. That tells you its more than one test.

Furthermore, unless an icon is running a stealth program, its not hiding. Since stealth is used to hide from being analyzed, and most icons in a node aren't running a stealth program, and don't have a rating, they don't oppose the test. Therefore, if I am UNABLE to get any information about a certain icon, I will assume it is either a hacker, or IC, and analyze it further.
Jaid
if you don't break it's stealth, then you aren't aware that it's any different. to assume otherwise is simply absurd, because the simple fact that the icon is different would tell everyone that it's masking, and that it's not just another program, which is exactly what stealth makes you look like, assuming it even lets things see your icon at all.

furthermore, the fact that it says tests could at least as easily be interpreted to be referring to the fact that the GM makes the applicable tests when you move from node to node, not that the GM is supposed to make tests to detect things over and over until you have all the information about everything in the node. i would tend to think that's how it's supposed to run, in fact, but that's just me.
Tarantula
Fine, then I'll restart my analyze program to analyze everything, then kill the process. One action phase analyze stop analyze, next one hack stuff, next one analyze stop analyze. Repeat. Even after the first combat turn (3 phases to start with), I should have (by law of averages) seen anything worthwhile in the node.

Another way to combat this which circumvents it all, is since I plan to hack in with admin priviledges, I'll just tell the IC node to close all connections. IC is stuck in its home node, and I don't care about it.
Jaid
meh. whatever. if you feel confident enough that you will never have to deal with being surprised in cybercombat, and that your sprites can take out everything *before* you are attacked, then that's up to you.

after all, it's not my character taking the risks. but sooner or later, something will penetrate your stealth, and it will suck. a lot.
Ryu
Detection of IC is a given in most cases, as it will rarely be hiding. Why should it?

The attack is a surprise attack because you believe you will not be detected. That one was easy smile.gif. The IC-Initiative is higher anyway.

The FAQ is lacking sense in many places, but even if Threading takes no action, you may only do so after the declared action of the IC is resolved. As I already said, threading armor won´t help you. IC 5 is your benchmark, IC 4 should be handled by any hacker. Whats more important, your matrix stats are sufficient to stay in shape even after the first round of attack.

IC running on its own node only has a certain payload loaded into itself, but not on the node. Even if one uses the FAQ ruling (witch has no foundation in the book itself), only analyse will be activly loaded. IC 5 will be loaded with analyse, armor, attack and black hammer, and use both kinds of attack in the first round. The first attack happens and does have 1 average net hit (10 dice vs. 7), you now resist DV 6 with (attack: 3+armor) or (black hammer: cool.gif dice. This happens three more times before you may command your sprite to attack the IC (certainly an offensive action). Higher Int and Will would help with not being hit. Damage resistance will simply be insufficient.

On general security measures: Any disconnection of an IC node should trigger an alert and a scan of the operator doing so. Legitimate users do not suffer from this, but intruders should be careful. If your GM does give you much leeway by ignoring the possibilities of matrix security, munching stealth capability is a waste of time.
Tarantula
First, I didn't say I believed I'd never be detected, and that once I find an IC, I would assume it would attack me. It would have higher initiative, but since threading takes no action, I could thread before it attacks. Please quote me where I can't. Threading armor does help, because unless I fail to notice the IC in node, it isn't a surprise attack.

Next, how can it use both attack and black hammer in the first round? Attack in matrix combat is a complex action. First round, the IC can choose to attack with either attack, or black hammer, not both. My defense is Response + Firewall. Response = Intuition + 1 for VR, Firewall = Willpower = 4. Thats 8. 8 dice vs 10 dice is a tossup. But assume it hits with 1 net hit. I'm looking at resisting 6dv with 3 + 6, 9 dice. Probably take 3 damage. My action I summon the sprite. It hits again, 3 more damage, sprite kills it.

Alternately, it uses blackhammer/blackout. Again, 10 vs 8, we'll assume it gets 1 net hit for purposes of arguement. I can't thread biofeedback filters, but I get willpower + biofeedback, which is cha. 4 + 4 = 8. Chances are, 3 hits, and I take 3 dv stun or physical. (Not really any worse than the attack program. (Also, if they use blackhammer, I could first aid it, and then be magically healed.) And then my action is again, summon the sprite, sprite kicks its ass, and I go on my way.

General security measures: How do legitimate users NOT suffer from it? If I hack in as an administrator, for all intents and purposes (unless I'm successfully analyzed) I am a legitimate administrator. Therefore, I don't suffer from the alert and scan, and the IC node disconnects without complaint.
Jaid
just because threading is not an action, doesn't mean you get to use it as an interrupt.

if you are expecting the possibility of an attack from someone, but aren't sure when or even if it will attack, you do get a bonus on a surprise test... but you aren't automatically not surprised. if you are surprised, you cannot do anything against what their surprise actions are.

also, you're assuming that there's only one IC/agent attacking you. that may or may not be the case.

and considering the probability of you getting spotted increases with the rating of the IC/agent, you're probably more likely to have to worry about rating 6 agents. the rating 4 was just to point out that you can run enough programs to have each agent multitask wink.gif
Tarantula
Surprise test: I get Response + Intuition. Techno response = intuition + 1 for VR. That gives me 4 + 3. It gets Pilot (rating) 5 + Response (4) = 9. I get +3 for expecting it (SR4, 155). Giving me 10. 10 vs 9. IC can't get surprised, but chances are, I'm not either.
Ryu
It does get four attacks per round, one per IP. If you are surprised you are dead. That is the risk.
Eleazar
QUOTE (Tarantula)
Ok, to put up the rest of the quote, since you insist its only one test:
QUOTE (SR4 @ pg 217)
When you are accessing a node, you may set your Analyze program to automatically scan and detect other users/icons on that node with a Simple Action.The program will maintain that task for as long as you are on that node or until you kill that process. The gamemaster secretly conducts Matrix Perception Tests to determine if you detect other icons accessing the system.

Emphasis mine. That tells you its more than one test.

Furthermore, unless an icon is running a stealth program, its not hiding. Since stealth is used to hide from being analyzed, and most icons in a node aren't running a stealth program, and don't have a rating, they don't oppose the test. Therefore, if I am UNABLE to get any information about a certain icon, I will assume it is either a hacker, or IC, and analyze it further.

I totally agree.

JAID:
"The program will maintain that task for as long as you are on that node or until you kill that process."

It maintains the task for as long as you are on the node. Not going from node to node, to node. This was designed to work exactly as it does in the meat world. You don't have to say I am making a perception check to make a perception check. The 1.5 million files is a good argument for Real World standards but not SR4. The matrix is too abstracted in SR. If you disagree with Tarantula's statement it would be more conducive to your statements to post RAW that supports your view, otherwise your opinion, however right it may be, is a house rule.

The hacker/TM makes a matrix perception each round to find the IC, an extended test. Once the Hacker/TM builds up enough hits against the threshold of the ICs stealth rating, they know the IC's location in the node. That is all there is to it. If you wan't a different approach to this, Serbitar has some house rules that get rid of all of the ridiculous amount of matrix perception checks you have to make while hacking.
Jaid
ok, whether or not you think you get a chance every round, there's no way it's an extended test.

either way, if you think you get a perception check every round, then what you're saying is that a node with rating 1 IC running analyse cannot be hacked from unless you are legitimately allowed to be there, because you will get detected sooner or later.

and i would allow a new matrix perception check to spot new icons, but no way would i grant a chance each round against the same stuff. in fact, IC getting analyse every turn was presented as a way to make the game stupid and boring every time someone tries to hack anything.
Tarantula
QUOTE (Ryu)
It does get four attacks per round, one per IP. If you are surprised you are dead. That is the risk.

QUOTE (SR4 @ 230)
Agents, IC, and sprites have an Initiative equal to Pilot + Response. Because they act at digital speeds, they receive two extra Initiative Passes (three total).

No, It gets 3. I am only surprised if I fail to analyze it. I'll go to the ambushing rules instead.
QUOTE (SR4 @ 156)
Ambushing characters, however, are automatically not surprised by the characters they are ambushing—assuming they are aware of the movement and actions of their target(s). If the ambusher is unaware of his prey’s activities (for example, he is waiting for someone to enter the room so he can leap out from behind the door, but he doesn’t know when that will be), he still receives the +6 modifier, but must check for surprise as well (he may not be prepared when the target walks through the door).

Guess what successfully analyzing it does. Lets me know the movement and actions of my target. (I could also argue that since the surprise rule only talks about Characters, IC can't surprise as well as not be able to be surprised.)

In fact...
QUOTE (SR4 @ 155)
The following rules apply to critters as well as to characters. Note that non-sentient objects (astral barriers, foci, programs, IC, etc.) cannot be surprised.

Since the rules don't apply to IC, they can't surprise me.
Tarantula
Agreed, not an extended test. Do you have any issues with me restarting my analyze program once a round or once every other round, Jaid?
Jaid
i probably wouldn't allow a global analyse that often. if i did, then i would equally allow it for any IC, and they don't have to worry about petty details like having to also hack other things, which means they can afford to spend every single IP checking globally to see if they break your stealth...

(ie you're better off *not* being able to analyse globally every single turn)

as far as the surprise thing, it doesn't say that IC doesn't follow the surprise rules, it says they can't be surprised (which imo is kinda dumb... if it doesn't even know you're there, how is it going to take defensive actions when you attack it? ditto for drones etc... if i have an improved invisibility spell up with 4 hits, the drone isn't even aware that i exist. yet somehow if i walk up to it and try to kill it, it becomes aware that i exist and can try to dodge?)
Ryu
If you are threading utilities up by six points, you are already looking at some damage. You only got 10 dice to shake 6 DV, and that as your own choice? Apart from using edge to actually get +6... from a whole 8 dice base.

You may thread a CF the IC when a) I tell you IC enters the node, before I tell you what said IC does. or b) on your first IP and after; but not before some already declared action. The same for dropping threading. It will not matter (much) because black hammer is used first due to the shock and lock-up it causes. In either case, I´d go without threading and hence no -2 on all matrix tests, increasing the chance of not being hit. I forgot about Response+1 in VR, but also gave you no threading.

Next, take note that we are only handling IC so far. Deckers will be much worse due to having edge in addition to at least IC-5 level dicepools. IC 6 is borderline in our game, be sure to ask your GM about expected levels of opposition first. That one WILL hurt.


__
Correction on something I wrote: You may call your sprite on your 2nd IP even if you are surprised. I thought surprise lasted a whole round. Wrong, its 1 IP.
Eleazar
Maybe I am missing something here then guys. How do you run this then? How do you treat stealthed ICs? It says right in the book that stealth rating is used as a threshold against the computer+analyze of a hacker\TM. If it is not an extended test, then what is it?
Ravor
A standard test that has to meet a certain Threshold. Yes, this means that Stealthed IC are really nasty, just like Stealthed Deckers are unless you allow Matrix Perception Tests every IP Pass.

Sorry about that, I got a couple of wires crossed, it's an Opposed Test; ( Computer + Analyze ) vs ( Hacking + Stealth ). Unless I'm missing something, the only place where Stealth is used as a straight Threshold is when you are trying to sleaze your way into a node in the first place.

So Stealthed IC are nasty, just like Stealthed Deckers are because you don't get to make an Extended Test against them (Unless they are hacking-on-the-fly of course.), you have to actually be able to beat them in a straight test.

*Edit*

Oh not much, I just rewrote the entire post. cyber.gif
Tarantula
QUOTE (Jaid @ Jul 20 2007, 09:43 AM)
i probably wouldn't allow a global analyse that often. if i did, then i would equally allow it for any IC, and they don't have to worry about petty details like having to also hack other things, which means they can afford to spend every single IP checking globally to see if they break your stealth...

(ie you're better off *not* being able to analyse globally every single turn)

Honestly, once I'm in, as soon as I find IC, I don't see how my first command wouldn't be to turn it off, since I plan to be hacking in with administrator access. This removes all issues with IC.

QUOTE (Jaid)
as far as the surprise thing, it doesn't say that IC doesn't follow the surprise rules, it says they can't be surprised (which imo is kinda dumb... if it doesn't even know you're there, how is it going to take defensive actions when you attack it? ditto for drones etc... if i have an improved invisibility spell up with 4 hits, the drone isn't even aware that i exist. yet somehow if i walk up to it and try to kill it, it becomes aware that i exist and can try to dodge?)

QUOTE (sr4 @ pg155)
The following rules apply to critters as well as to characters.


Is IC a critter? No. Is IC a character? No. It doesn't apply to IC.
Ravor
QUOTE (Tarantula)
Honestly, once I'm in, as soon as I find IC, I don't see how my first command wouldn't be to turn it off, since I plan to be hacking in with administrator access. This removes all issues with IC.


Then you have better hope that you never are in a situation where you don't have all day to hack yourself Admin Access. Also that would only work if your DM beleives as I do that it isn't legal for an Agent to run off Node E while existing in Node A. (Although if you really wanted to trip an alarm then I guess you could tell Node A not to talk to Node E.)

Also even in my vision of the Matrix, an alarm is going to be raised as soon as a real Security Decker checks the system load and sees a massive drop, so even then it's generally not any better of an idea then kicking down the front door and opening up with a heavy machinegun.

However, your DM may be alot nicer then I am, in which case you just may be able to pull your trick off.
Tarantula
First, what are you talking about all day long? On the fly is where its at.
Going back to stats: He gets skill + program for hacking. 4 (6) + (6) + (2 for codeslinger) + 2 (for hot sim) - 2 for threading stealth 12. This puts him at 14 dice. Systems get system + analyze with threshold of 12 (his stealth). His threshold is firewall (+6 for admin). At the best system (6's across the board). Its rolling 12 dice vs 12 versus his 14 dice vs 12. Assuming most systems he comes across are not that hard (considering hes a starting character with no karma.) His chances of getting in undetected are good.

Next, you don't tell Node A not to talk to Node E, you tell node E not to talk to node A. If its done legitimately, no alarms go up. If they don't break my stealth, they don't know I'm not legitimate.

Wouldn't your decker's first move be to check the IC node, and see what happened, and it sees that the IC node is still fully active and intact. So he tells it to reconnect to node A. Oh, but most SECURITY deckers only have SECURITY access, which means he probably can't. So he has to phone up an admin, who can do it. If he does have the access to do it, I tell it not to, and change his access. Now he has to hack his own system to do anything.
Fortune
QUOTE (Tarantula)
QUOTE (sr4 @ pg155)
The following rules apply to critters as well as to characters.


Is IC a critter? No. Is IC a character? No. It doesn't apply to IC.

Yes, but the surprise rules still apply to your character. There is still a test ... it is just that the IC cannot be surprised as a result of the test.
Ravor
You know, that's interesting, I think this may actually be the first time I've been told that hacking-on-fly when you didn't have to was "safe". rotfl.gif

But a couple of things to keep in mind;

( 1 ) Considering that everything takes an action, and Threading is described as being akin to a Mage casting a spell, I really wouldn't want to hang my hat on depending on a DM to accept that ruling. Unless FrankTrollman comes in and chimes othewise it seems to be nothing more then a glaring typo.

( 2 ) Before you seriously consider trying to thread Stealth over and over again until you hit the 8% chance you have of actually getting ( Rating 12 ), you might want to make sure that your DM missed the section about "Trying Again" on page 59. (Not to mention making sure that your fellow players are forgiving of such tomfoolery.)

( 3 ) Understand that since you are threading a Complex Form to a rating above your Resonance you are resisting Physical Drain.

....

Ok as for your actual tactics, knasser is better at explaining this then I am, but basically even though you have a fairly decent chance of sleazing undetected through any one node, with every perception check that you face your overall chances of remaining undetected drop, and the fact that while hacking-on-the-fly the Node gets to make extended tests against you it is far risker then probing, even if you get lucky and manage your ( Stealth 12 ). (So you'd better make sure that the rest of the team are ok with you increasing the odds of getting burnt.)

Secondly if you hack into a node using Admin Access and then preceed to shut down any IC that you find you are going to drop the system load and a Security Decker is going to investigate what is going on, including restarting the IC. (It's just silly to think that a Security Account wouldn't allow that.) And if you lock his account out in order to prevent it, then instead of doing something stupid like hacking his own system he is instead going to sound an alarm as well as reboot the entire system. Getting dumpshocked sucks almost as much as knowing that you've just fragged the entire team over.

Now, assuming knasser's vision of Agents and you hack your way into Node E in order to tell it not to talk with Node A in order to shut down the IC in Node A then one of the first things a Security Decker would do if he wasn't allowed to simply get the two nodes talking again (Something which quite frankly I can see either way.) is to check the logs and see what was going on, maybe he calls his supervisor first before sounding an alarm and rebooting the system but regardless, once again you've managed to frag your team over and get dumpshocked for your troubles.

*Edit*

Also I wouldn't count on things being "easier" just because you are a starting character, with the exception of the Shadowrun Missions, the Sixth World doesn't use the idea of Challenge Ratings or Levels like Cancer does.
Cheops
I'd have to second what Ravor just said. My players have learned the hard way that doing obvious stuff like just editing away an alert, adding programs, deleting programs, or severing connections, is a very good way of negating your stealth. If you've bothered to get in sneakily you may as well stay sneaky.

There are more ways to deal with a system than just blitzing it like most people are inclined to do.
James McMurray
QUOTE (Tarantula)
QUOTE (sr4 @ pg155)
The following rules apply to critters as well as to characters.


Is IC a critter? No. Is IC a character? No. It doesn't apply to IC.

It never says it doesn't apply to IC. It says IC cannot be surprised, but does not say that IC cannot be suprised. Likewise it lists some types of things that are affected, but never says it's an all-inclusive list.
Tarantula
Fortune: If the rules only apply to critters and characters, then the rules for causing a surprise test doesn't apply to the IC either, which doesn't allow them to surprise.

Ravor: First, threading is NOT described as being akin to a mage casting a spell. The penalty for SUSTAINING a threaded form is described as being similar to the strain for sustaining a spell, and thats why they are both a -2 modifier.

2: No, I stealth over and over, decide to use 1 hit unless I can go for 6, therefore succeeding my test, easily resisting the drain, and the dropping the sustained thread until I get what I want. Since I succeeded, the trying again rules don't count. Just out of curiosity, do you apply this to people shooting at each other as well? Each time they miss they get a -2 to their next shot?

If I had the time to spare to probe, of course I would probe. However, when hacking on the fly, I stand a very good chance of succeeding anyway. New plan for dealing with IC, hack in, first step, turn off logging, next, tell the IC and the node I'm on to load something other than analyze. Swapping one program for another (to avoid the system resource drop).

My point about "easier" is that since I am a starting character, he wouldn't accept a job to hack into ares mainframe. He'd probably be starting with something a little smaller.

QUOTE (James McMurray)
It says IC cannot be surprised, but does not say that IC cannot be suprised.

"says IC cannot be surprised" and "not say that IC cannot be surprised" are contradictory. You're saying it says they're surprisable, and they aren't. Please put some rules quotes up to back up both your statements.
James McMurray
sorry, I meant to say that it says IC can't be surprised, but does not say that they cannot surprise others. That is, you cannot surprise them, but they can still surprise you.

If you disagree, please point to where they say that IC cannot surprise someone.
Tarantula
The rules for surprising someone only apply to critters and characters. Not IC. Therefore IC can't surprise, as well as not being able to be surprised.
Trigger
Tarantula:

QUOTE (SR4 @ 155)
The following rules apply to critters as well as to characters. Note that non-sentient objects (astral barriers, foci, programs, IC, etc.) cannot be surprised.


Bolded the important part.

IC cannot be surprised. That does not say that IC cannot surprise, simply that you cannot surprise them. If you don't notice an IC then it can sure as shit surprise you, simple as that.
Tarantula
And I admitted numerous times that if I FAILED to spot the IC in the system, I had no problems with it surprising me. However, once I've analyzed it and know that it is in fact, IC, it should not be able to surprise me.
James McMurray
QUOTE (Tarantula)
The rules for surprising someone only apply to critters and characters. Not IC. Therefore IC can't surprise, as well as not being able to be surprised.

Rules quote? I see a rule that says all surprise rules apply to critters and characters. There is no rule that says no surprise rules apply to IC. In fact, there is a rule that very specifically tells you which subset of rules do not apply to IC.
Tarantula
I retract my statement of that IC can't surprise, I was posting without a book. So I was only going off my partial quote that I had quoted eariler. IC can surprise, but can't be surprised. However, I still stand that if I've detected the IC it shouldn't get a chance to surprise me.

Edit: I'll liken this to a meat world example. If I'm walking down the street, and some other guy is walking towards me, and then he starts pulling a gun out, its surprise time.

If I'm walking down the street, and some other guy is walking towards me with a gun in his hand, then he decides to point it at me, its initiative time, but I'm not surprised that a guy with a gun in his hand just aimed at me.
James McMurray
I agree with that. If you know something is IC, you know enough to be wary and avoid surprise. It might still attack and go faster than you, but not with a complete ambush-like attack.
Ryu
Consider the chances for detection again - you need about 3 tests to beat the threshold, as does the system. Hacking in to experience a reboot... Threading stealth does work on probing the system because the resulting threshold is to high for a single roll.

Reconsider that re-threading trick. Many games won´t have you at their table again, ever.
Tarantula
Why? It even says that a TM can choose to use as many or as little hits as he wants on a threading test. Would they rather I take the 2 hits I got on my first test and hose the run from tripping an alarm?
Ryu
Because rerolling test until you have max. successes is metagaming of the worst kind?
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